Discussion
First day on the track here in Chicago.
Fantastic acceleration from 2500-5000ish,then feels as though it drops off? Feel this way to anyone else?
doesn't really pull full thrust all the way to redline. Rousch will remap engine and I'm wondering if that might help.
Switched from normally aspirated Porsche race car. This was a bit tricky to get used to with the turbos kicking in mid corner-had 1 major off track excursion
but luckily did not hit anything. Only thing faster at the track was a gt3 cup car.
Fantastic acceleration from 2500-5000ish,then feels as though it drops off? Feel this way to anyone else?
doesn't really pull full thrust all the way to redline. Rousch will remap engine and I'm wondering if that might help.
Switched from normally aspirated Porsche race car. This was a bit tricky to get used to with the turbos kicking in mid corner-had 1 major off track excursion
but luckily did not hit anything. Only thing faster at the track was a gt3 cup car.
Max torque is produced between 3500-5000, with about 95 per cent of it available from 2500, so it's no suprise that the car feels particularly strong between these revs.
However, as has already been mentioned, acceleration should feel pretty vivid up until 6200rpm, after which it trails away quite sharply. Even driving the car on the track, I seldom use more than 6k before changing up in a 3R.
Simon Hucknall
Press Officer
Noble Automotive Ltd.
However, as has already been mentioned, acceleration should feel pretty vivid up until 6200rpm, after which it trails away quite sharply. Even driving the car on the track, I seldom use more than 6k before changing up in a 3R.
Simon Hucknall
Press Officer
Noble Automotive Ltd.
) Often times on a turbo vehicle the loss of power at higher rpm is simply due to a restriction of flow.
Off top of my head ... this can be cause by too much backpressure in the cylinder head (least likely), exhaust system, or often with smaller turbos the exhaust turbine is not able to keep up with the top end flow.
If the exhaust is the issues, get atleast a 3inch exhaust. Turbos dprovide all backpressure necessary. There is no benefit for backpressure in the exhaust system after the turbo (unlike a NA motor). 3 inch is the smallest and most commonly efficent exhaust diamter for a turbo motor.
Also, spool time and top end flow and overall power output can be improved on if you separate the wastgate dump from the rest of the exhaust system by making a tube that dumps to atmosphere. This decreases turbulence in the exhaust flow.
If the turbine is the problem, you can clip the angle of the blades by a certain number of degrees, which will slightly affect spool up time as top end flow is improved.
You could also just get a completyely new turbo if you wanted.
HTH.
>> Edited by NoLimits on Tuesday 7th September 01:08
Off top of my head ... this can be cause by too much backpressure in the cylinder head (least likely), exhaust system, or often with smaller turbos the exhaust turbine is not able to keep up with the top end flow.
If the exhaust is the issues, get atleast a 3inch exhaust. Turbos dprovide all backpressure necessary. There is no benefit for backpressure in the exhaust system after the turbo (unlike a NA motor). 3 inch is the smallest and most commonly efficent exhaust diamter for a turbo motor.
Also, spool time and top end flow and overall power output can be improved on if you separate the wastgate dump from the rest of the exhaust system by making a tube that dumps to atmosphere. This decreases turbulence in the exhaust flow.
If the turbine is the problem, you can clip the angle of the blades by a certain number of degrees, which will slightly affect spool up time as top end flow is improved.
You could also just get a completyely new turbo if you wanted.
HTH.
>> Edited by NoLimits on Tuesday 7th September 01:08
dodgy said:Gave it to Noble, who gave it to Roush engineering.
Joust - What did you do to upgrade?
Basically all it is is just a complete remap of the turbo, digital wastegate control and a few other tweaks. A complete bargin at around £2k if you have the right ECU, £6k if you need a new ECU and associated wiring loom.
J
I see a lot of people who are often talking about "remapping" and "ecu upgrades" etc.
So, basically, you are saying that the turbo was not physically touched ... but electronically modifed.
So, boost is most likley raised to a higher point ... which flows more air ... which is still within the efficiency range of the turbo.
Ecu remapping is fine tuning of air/fuel/timing and any other knd of electronic engine management.
I'd be interested to know exactly what boost levels and electronic management adjustmenst were made.
Also, don't you have the t25s and 2.5l combo? Just clarifying.
So, basically, you are saying that the turbo was not physically touched ... but electronically modifed.
So, boost is most likley raised to a higher point ... which flows more air ... which is still within the efficiency range of the turbo.
Ecu remapping is fine tuning of air/fuel/timing and any other knd of electronic engine management.
I'd be interested to know exactly what boost levels and electronic management adjustmenst were made.
Also, don't you have the t25s and 2.5l combo? Just clarifying.
LaurenceFrost said:
The boost is electronically controlled by the ECU, so this opens up a whole new dimension in the mapping category.
I understand that a factory wastegate is usually controlled by pressure and that electronic boost contorl (actually wastegate control) is availabe in after market. I wasn't aware that the factory nmoble ECU is already electronically contorlling the wastegate ... so that's new to me. Thanks for the info. But, that still doesn't answer my questions in my last post.
See the US Noble owner thread. See the threads about low boost and power drop-off diagnosis. I am a fairly experienced modifier.
I am more curious exactly what is being modified to what parameters. I am less interested in the mod being called "a remap" of this or that.
I was just hoping somebody would actually be able to explain what changes are being made.
m12_nathan said:
Boost under certain conditions is increased from max .7 bar to 0.91.0 bar.
So, .91 bar ... or about 13 psi .. for this "remap" or "upgrade" and nothing else is changed, physically, to the compressor or turbine wheel or their housings?
Has .91 bar been accurately determined to be the max efficiency for these turbos? These are the t25 turbos that we are talking about, correct? Has anyone figured out what the hp gain is from the .21 bar increase? I suppose this is still on stock inhectors and fuel pump .. and has simply been tuned properly for air/fuel/timing or "remapped" as you guys call it. I wonder what the mixture ratio is and what timing is run at.
I am curious of the max hp potential and efficiency of the stock induction and fuel system is. That is why I ask these questions.
Thanks for the input.
>> Edited by NoLimits on Tuesday 7th September 13:03
NoLimits,
As the person who re-mapped the 2.5 ECU for the higher power, (and all current Noble ECUs) may I say that I know what I'm doing regarding mapping for mixture and spark etc. Since I've been remapping the ECUs, the cars have developed more power reliably.
Lots of people have spoken volumes about increasing power on these engines and saying that any competent shop should be able to do it. Well, the ECU's are locked to Noble, so for a start you have to be approved by the factory to modify the ECUs etc.
Secondly, as someone who's been involved with the power development with these engines for Noble and Ford, I know a bit about their limits.
As I have said before in other threads, there is a balancing act to do when developing these engines - between power and reliability. Customers pay for reliability first and then moan about lack of power. That's far more appealing than paying for power and moaning about reliability - c.f. TVR of the last few years.
Yes, there's more power available, but when you look at the whole picture including the car, the current setup is where Noble are happy with the whole package. Not having millions to spend on development, they've got something that works reliably, now. Work continues on future products with the aim of keeping the reliability whilst safely increasing the power.
Hope this helps,
YerllowShed
As the person who re-mapped the 2.5 ECU for the higher power, (and all current Noble ECUs) may I say that I know what I'm doing regarding mapping for mixture and spark etc. Since I've been remapping the ECUs, the cars have developed more power reliably.
Lots of people have spoken volumes about increasing power on these engines and saying that any competent shop should be able to do it. Well, the ECU's are locked to Noble, so for a start you have to be approved by the factory to modify the ECUs etc.
Secondly, as someone who's been involved with the power development with these engines for Noble and Ford, I know a bit about their limits.
As I have said before in other threads, there is a balancing act to do when developing these engines - between power and reliability. Customers pay for reliability first and then moan about lack of power. That's far more appealing than paying for power and moaning about reliability - c.f. TVR of the last few years.
Yes, there's more power available, but when you look at the whole picture including the car, the current setup is where Noble are happy with the whole package. Not having millions to spend on development, they've got something that works reliably, now. Work continues on future products with the aim of keeping the reliability whilst safely increasing the power.
Hope this helps,
YerllowShed
Yellow,
I really don't understand where you are "coming from" with that post.
Did I offend you in some way? I don't understand how I would have. I mentioned noting about your abilities or anything like that. I know nothing about you. This is only the second post of yours that I have ever seen. I simply asked some questions to learn more about the tunability of the motor setup.
Only a question about what boost level is run for the "upgrade" is mentioned so far.
I really don't understand what you meant to convey by your post.
I guess you were trying to tell me that people have not really explored the power abilities of stock induction and fuel yet because people are more concerned with reliability issues.
That helps me undertsand a bit more ... but I kinda figured that out when I realized that nobody is really modifying the engines yet.
I am simply curious. I com from a performance scene where extensive modification is always the topic and train of though ... WITH reliability.
I am only asking humbly questions to satisfy my curiousity ad to consider future planning.
It seesm that your reply conveyed some idea of you being offended by my inquiries .. and I do not understand why that would be true .. so I hope it isn't the case.
To phill brett,
I caight on to the idea that this thread sems to be concentrating on the 2.5 motor with the t25s. I am personally more interested int eh 3.0 motor ... but am also curiious aboiut the t25s/t28s potential and both motors ... but ... other than the turbo and displacement specs ... I have no idea what stock is.
I do not know what size injectors are run, what flow fuel pump, what exhaust and intake dlow is like etc.
I am curious what these specs are ... and also curious as to what buymping up the fuel pressure and boost pressue ... and maxing out the stock fuel and induction with a good tune would yeild .. in the 2.5l/t25 combo ... the 3.0 l t25 conbo and the 3.0 liter t28 combo.
Again, humble inquiries that shouldn't be offensive at all to anyone.
And yes, you read right, I do think that competent shopd can modify and comprehend to any extent desired .. because they can.
If the ecu is locked by some sort of code ... I find that a bit interesting that there is authorization required and I am not sure if that is considered as a safety measure or some ort of reason to inhibit tuners. wodl guess it is intended for safety.
Once again yellow, I know nothng abot you and I have never directed anything at you or your work. Please, lets try not to "start off" with any awkward relations.
I am here to get along and learn.
I really don't understand where you are "coming from" with that post.
Did I offend you in some way? I don't understand how I would have. I mentioned noting about your abilities or anything like that. I know nothing about you. This is only the second post of yours that I have ever seen. I simply asked some questions to learn more about the tunability of the motor setup.
Only a question about what boost level is run for the "upgrade" is mentioned so far.
I really don't understand what you meant to convey by your post.
I guess you were trying to tell me that people have not really explored the power abilities of stock induction and fuel yet because people are more concerned with reliability issues.
That helps me undertsand a bit more ... but I kinda figured that out when I realized that nobody is really modifying the engines yet.
I am simply curious. I com from a performance scene where extensive modification is always the topic and train of though ... WITH reliability.
I am only asking humbly questions to satisfy my curiousity ad to consider future planning.
It seesm that your reply conveyed some idea of you being offended by my inquiries .. and I do not understand why that would be true .. so I hope it isn't the case.
To phill brett,
I caight on to the idea that this thread sems to be concentrating on the 2.5 motor with the t25s. I am personally more interested int eh 3.0 motor ... but am also curiious aboiut the t25s/t28s potential and both motors ... but ... other than the turbo and displacement specs ... I have no idea what stock is.
I do not know what size injectors are run, what flow fuel pump, what exhaust and intake dlow is like etc.
I am curious what these specs are ... and also curious as to what buymping up the fuel pressure and boost pressue ... and maxing out the stock fuel and induction with a good tune would yeild .. in the 2.5l/t25 combo ... the 3.0 l t25 conbo and the 3.0 liter t28 combo.
Again, humble inquiries that shouldn't be offensive at all to anyone.
And yes, you read right, I do think that competent shopd can modify and comprehend to any extent desired .. because they can.
If the ecu is locked by some sort of code ... I find that a bit interesting that there is authorization required and I am not sure if that is considered as a safety measure or some ort of reason to inhibit tuners. wodl guess it is intended for safety.
Once again yellow, I know nothng abot you and I have never directed anything at you or your work. Please, lets try not to "start off" with any awkward relations.
I am here to get along and learn.
I find the difference between the US and UK fascinating.
NL - you keep on mentioning "shops". Over here, shops are places you get your fruit and veg or clothes. We have a few mad "garages" that mod stuff past it's designed characteristics but they are few and far between
I'm amazed, given the litigious nature that is portrayed about the US, that companies over "there" actually modify stuff. What happens if you modify a car and it goes bang? Who pays, and what happens.
In the UK we have a things called the Sales of Goods & Services Act that means that anything you sell to consumers must be fit for purpose. Also, we, in general, don't have a fixation over here for pure power, most cars on the road are around the 1.5-2.5l marque, and handling is held in much higher regard than pure power.
My experience (admittedly from hire cars, but a wide range from group "C" to group "Y" [~$20/day - $190/day) has taught me that the US mentality seems to be power over handling over usability.
To be sure you can buy a Lee Noble creation with >700bhp, they are called Ultimas, and are available from Ted at www.ultimasports.co.uk/ and fine cars they are too, and are in the range of £30k to £80k in kit form depending on spec.
However, does it make a better car?
In the UK we have a thing called the "B" road (windy roads that follow the oddly English land plot borders) that normally is potholed, bouncy and very badly laid tarmac - I've never found an equivalent road in the US. M12's rule the roost compared to anything else on such roads, and it's part of the UK makeup that we judge cars based on their capabilities there, not on the 1/4mile straight.
Finally, Trevor is spot on. Many a car can have the power cranked up, but over here we expect engines to last for ever without a rebuild. The work that Trevor has done on the M12 range allows you to rag the arse off the car for 1000's miles without any issue whatsoever (my latest incarnation of the 2.5 is a prime example of that).
Whilst I am sure you have a good appreciation of the physics behind this, forget not that we are talking about a £60k car here (that's equivalent to, like, a $40k sports car if you extrapolate the rest of the market like for like).
To put that in perspective, a 1 bedroom flat here can cost £450,000 (yes, nearly $750,000!).
I think the main issue is that you are talking about two different markets on a primarily UK board - remember that when you post and you'll be fine.
J
NL - you keep on mentioning "shops". Over here, shops are places you get your fruit and veg or clothes. We have a few mad "garages" that mod stuff past it's designed characteristics but they are few and far between
I'm amazed, given the litigious nature that is portrayed about the US, that companies over "there" actually modify stuff. What happens if you modify a car and it goes bang? Who pays, and what happens.
In the UK we have a things called the Sales of Goods & Services Act that means that anything you sell to consumers must be fit for purpose. Also, we, in general, don't have a fixation over here for pure power, most cars on the road are around the 1.5-2.5l marque, and handling is held in much higher regard than pure power.
My experience (admittedly from hire cars, but a wide range from group "C" to group "Y" [~$20/day - $190/day) has taught me that the US mentality seems to be power over handling over usability.
To be sure you can buy a Lee Noble creation with >700bhp, they are called Ultimas, and are available from Ted at www.ultimasports.co.uk/ and fine cars they are too, and are in the range of £30k to £80k in kit form depending on spec.
However, does it make a better car?
In the UK we have a thing called the "B" road (windy roads that follow the oddly English land plot borders) that normally is potholed, bouncy and very badly laid tarmac - I've never found an equivalent road in the US. M12's rule the roost compared to anything else on such roads, and it's part of the UK makeup that we judge cars based on their capabilities there, not on the 1/4mile straight.
Finally, Trevor is spot on. Many a car can have the power cranked up, but over here we expect engines to last for ever without a rebuild. The work that Trevor has done on the M12 range allows you to rag the arse off the car for 1000's miles without any issue whatsoever (my latest incarnation of the 2.5 is a prime example of that).
Whilst I am sure you have a good appreciation of the physics behind this, forget not that we are talking about a £60k car here (that's equivalent to, like, a $40k sports car if you extrapolate the rest of the market like for like).
To put that in perspective, a 1 bedroom flat here can cost £450,000 (yes, nearly $750,000!).
I think the main issue is that you are talking about two different markets on a primarily UK board - remember that when you post and you'll be fine.
J
Not all Yanks are the same.
Also being from the U.S.,I have a slightly different view. I drove and ordered a Noble the same day. The car is an amazing balance of acceleration and handling.
It is not all about horsepower. For this Yank the game is the formula of handling vs. power-to-weight vs. price. The Noble comes out ahead in my book. I took the Top Gear lap times scoreboard and put price next to each car. The answer seems obvious to me. To beat any of those cars above the Noble on the scoreboard you have to spend 2.5 to 5 times as much. I just paid $6K US for a valve job on my 911. You can get an entire Noble engine for that.
After 5 Porsches I am switching.
Also being from the U.S.,I have a slightly different view. I drove and ordered a Noble the same day. The car is an amazing balance of acceleration and handling.
It is not all about horsepower. For this Yank the game is the formula of handling vs. power-to-weight vs. price. The Noble comes out ahead in my book. I took the Top Gear lap times scoreboard and put price next to each car. The answer seems obvious to me. To beat any of those cars above the Noble on the scoreboard you have to spend 2.5 to 5 times as much. I just paid $6K US for a valve job on my 911. You can get an entire Noble engine for that.
After 5 Porsches I am switching.
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