Advice on gearbox

[r10crw]

Well Im slowly working through the winter list and just about finnished resealing the floor. Anyone thinking on attempting this beware that you need strong arms! I decided to use roffing bolts instead of rivets and really pleased with the results, take a really good hold and are self sealing and wont corrode like the rivets.
So now starting to look at the gearbox and really not sure what my best options are in terms of costs.

I know this has been covered lots before but without the search facility its easier to ask and Im sure you all know the answers!

My gearbox has been making some strange rumbling noises and the clutch appears to be on the way out. Its an early 3r so has the 5 speed and should have the atb diff? At least jetstream believes this to be the case.

So when I jack the car up and rotate the right rear the gearbox sounds like a washing machine with some spanners inside but if I rotate the left rear its sounds quite smooth. In terms of drive for some reason the right rear wheel spins everytime and never the left, really noticable on slow speed second gear corners.
Is this a typical diff failure? I thought it would be more catastrophic?

Anyway I need to consider my costs and options and intend to carry out the work myself or at least use a local garage (specialist and very good).

1 - 6 speed conversion.
Whats all required? Lots of things here that Im not sure about, does the chassis need modified, are their different ratios to consider. What would be the real costs to have all the parts at my door and how hard would they be to source? Does the standard box need beefed up? Im running standard power but makes sense to get things done for more power when its in bits.

2 - 5 speed repair.
What the costs on getting the box rebuilt for strength? Reading on the Ford forums a lot of people reckon its stronger than the 6 speed?

3- Secondhand 5 speed.
Do you really need the diff? As Im not sure mine has ever worked properly I dont know whats essential.

4- Clutch options.
5/6 speed the same? Anyone recomend whats the best option and costs?

5 - Removing the box
Is this straightforward? I had a quick look and to be honest it looks like the whole lot has to come out (engine as well) unless I cut away at least one chassis section. This diagonal tube on the left side may allow the box to come out the top, is this correct? Once back in have people just welded it back in or is it acceptable to bolt it back in place with some small modifications.

6 - If sticking with the 5 does the upgrade kit from Jetstream make a big difference, its around £500 which seam a lot of money but I really dont like the current feel and if its a vast improvment I think it would on the list.

7 - Anyone got a box sitting they want to sell? Be nice to get a box ready before stripping mine as its still driveable just now.

Really sorry for such a long winded mail but really not sure what to do,

Craig.

[andygtt]

right, well lots of options to consider.

First the noble needs the LSD, as open diffs are weak and break so thats not an option.

Second, the engine really needs to come out to remove the diff, otherwise you have to cut the chassis and re-weld afterwards... not something I would do.

Changing to the 6 speed box isnt that straightforward, there are a lot of parts floating around but you will need the new gearchange kit thats around £400-600 all in.... your flywheel is the same as the 6 speed but the clutch, starter and release bearing are different.

You will need new engine moults... I made some of mine and reused one of the 5 speed ones..... drive shafts are the same. there are no chassis mods needed.

I bought a 2nd hand 6 speed box for £250 (got 3 now lol) and then had it rebuilt with a new quaife (£1800) bought a new clutch and had it upgraded, then new starter, bearing and gearchange kit... I recon I had little change from 4k.. you can do it for half that if you buy some 2nd hand parts like starter and clutch... however seeing as the engine needs removing to replace most of these part usually everyone puts new items in.

I have to say I dont regret changing from a 5-6speed, I was forced to because the 5 cant take the power of the 6 but I still prefer it.

reconditioning the 5 speed with reconditioned clutch and new lsd will cost over 2k... add to that the gearchange kit from jetstream ( a very nice addition imo) and your getting close to doing a 6 speed conversion anyhow?

[Hollowpockets]

Hi Andy, would you sell a box? I'm looking to build up a spare strengthened one with the gearset that Craig is organising and a new diff, struggling to find a used one just now.

Cheers

Graham

[r10crw]

Thanks Andy thats the info I was looking for.

So really looks like running the car the way it is until it fails completely and saving for a 6 speed is the way to go. As graham said would you sell a box? Or anyone else?

I wonder if Jetstream would supply a kit so I can be certain I have all the conversion parts needed?? If I had a fixed (or nearly) fixed price for the parts excluding box and diff then I would feel a little more relaxed.

[Gadgeroonie]

it is likely your car does not have an atb fitted

you can get the 5 speed rebuilt with an atb and strengthened by www.gearboxman.co.uk

[andygtt]

I see 2 on ebay... its an ST220 6 speed box... unlike the 5 speed there is only one version.... pay £2-400 for a good un.

One of my box is in the car, another is a spare with some new internals, the third is on load to Sundance and is in the Netherlands being used to create the gearset. so Im afraid I dont have a spare 'spare' to sell lol

[r10crw]

Possibly not but Dave thought all 3Rs with 5 speeds had the ATB? It certainly slides as if it doesnt hence part of the reason for this mail.

If I were to get the box rebuilt what sort of costs are we speaking about? Maybe someone has a 5 speed they want to sell? And then what sort of power is it capable of handling safely? I really have little intention of upping the power to anything like the 600hp boys but a safe reliable 450 would be nice;)

Must admit that after Andy said the whole engine/box has to come out its really put me off doing it! I actually dont mind cutting and re welding the chassis if its just one stay but start to get a little nervous if its getting hacked left right and centre!

[r10crw]

andygtt said:

I see 2 on ebay... its an ST220 6 speed box... unlike the 5 speed there is only one version.... pay £2-400 for a good un.

One of my box is in the car, another is a spare with some new internals, the third is on load to Sundance and is in the Netherlands being used to create the gearset. so Im afraid I dont have a spare 'spare' to sell lol

So ST220 uses the same gearset as the noble?

[andygtt]

r10crw said:

So ST220 uses the same gearset as the noble?

yes... make sure its a 6 speed and a genuine st220 v6 3.0L... see loads of people call the st200 an st200 etc...

I have no idea if the diesel gearboxs are the same.

all noble did for the M400 was chuck an LSD in a stock ST220 box and it will take 450bhp all day long as long as its a good un.... we convert ours to steel cage bearings and oil cooling etc and have them shot peaned etc etc... a simple rebuild to put a quaife lsd and fit steel cage bearings would be under 1k.

[mgbond]

r10crw said:

Possibly not but Dave thought all 3Rs with 5 speeds had the ATB? It certainly slides as if it doesnt hence part of the reason for this mail.

If I were to get the box rebuilt what sort of costs are we speaking about? Maybe someone has a 5 speed they want to sell? And then what sort of power is it capable of handling safely? I really have little intention of upping the power to anything like the 600hp boys but a safe reliable 450 would be nice;)

Must admit that after Andy said the whole engine/box has to come out its really put me off doing it! I actually dont mind cutting and re welding the chassis if its just one stay but start to get a little nervous if its getting hacked left right and centre!

I have the costs for getting the 5spd box rebuilt stronger.

I brought a low milage (40k mondeo) box that gearbox man said was in great condition inside for £200.

then had it shot peened, bearings changed and cooling wells/connections added.

I then added a new slave cylinder (recommend) and a mardigra uprated clutch.

If I was doing it again I would go up a level on the clutch as I think the mardigra can start to slip if you take the torque to 450ft/lb.

I don't have the list here but I can email you it later.

Bondy

[Hollowpockets]

Bondy I had one of those before and I got it starting to slip at 480lbft so you could maybe go to 465 and be ok, depending on the mapping.

[GTO600]

r10crw said:

Possibly not but Dave thought all 3Rs with 5 speeds had the ATB? It certainly slides as if it doesnt hence part of the reason for this mail.

If I were to get the box rebuilt what sort of costs are we speaking about? Maybe someone has a 5 speed they want to sell? And then what sort of power is it capable of handling safely? I really have little intention of upping the power to anything like the 600hp boys but a safe reliable 450 would be nice;)

Must admit that after Andy said the whole engine/box has to come out its really put me off doing it! I actually dont mind cutting and re welding the chassis if its just one stay but start to get a little nervous if its getting hacked left right and centre!

Dave would know but it does sound like yours either didn't have a lsd or it's broken which is unusual, if your capable of doing the job & don't mind cutting the chassis then forsure it's going to be far cheaper for you to replace the 5-speed with another fitted with a lsd & have the Jetstream gearchange upgrade which is brilliant.
I think Andy's estimate to convert to a 6-speed is low but assume it's based on doing most of the work himself, as far as l know there is no proven evidence that the 6-speed is stronger than the 5-speed it's the open diff that's the weak point.

Dependent on your urgency l do know of a Noble 5-speed box with standard diff in good working order so possibly just change to lsd diff ?
Kevin

Edited by GTO600 on Friday 14th December 13:31

[djdubs]

I'm potentially going to do a engine conversion on my car but need to get a idea what the current setup is worth first. I have a complete 6 speed with LSD setup Inc gearbox, clutch, starter, wishbone (for exchange), complete M400 gearchange/shifter setup, gearbox mounts, etc.. All still in the car and potentially for sale

[r10crw]

djdubs said:

I'm potentially going to do a engine conversion on my car but need to get a idea what the current setup is worth first. I have a complete 6 speed with LSD setup Inc gearbox, clutch, starter, wishbone (for exchange), complete M400 gearchange/shifter setup, gearbox mounts, etc.. All still in the car and potentially for sale

Id definitly be interested in this as mine is still running just dont know how long it will last. How likely it this to happen and have you any idea of timescale?
Id have no clue on costs though but sure we can come up with a fair deal, preferably one where we both think we have been done!lol.

[r10crw]

GTO600 said:

Dave would know but it does sound like yours either didn't have a lsd or it's broken which is unusual, if your capable of doing the job & don't mind cutting the chassis then forsure it's going to be far cheaper for you to replace the 5-speed with another fitted with a lsd & have the Jetstream gearchange upgrade which is brilliant.
I think Andy's estimate to convert to a 6-speed is low but assume it's based on doing most of the work himself, as far as l know there is no proven evidence that the 6-speed is stronger than the 5-speed it's the open diff that's the weak point.

Dependent on your urgency l do know of a Noble 5-speed box with standard diff in good working order so possibly just change to lsd diff ?
Kevin

Edited by GTO600 on Friday 14th December 13:31

What sort of money are we talking? I really like the idea of 6 speed but beggars cant be choosers and all that,
Craig.

[mgbond]

Hollowpockets said:

Bondy I had one of those before and I got it starting to slip at 480lbft so you could maybe go to 465 and be ok, depending on the mapping.

SteveObes started to slip at 450ftlb so was just using that as a gauge.

Bondy

[steveobes]

mgbond said:

SteveObes started to slip at 450ftlb so was just using that as a gauge.

Bondy

Thats right Bondy,started to slip at 465ftlb,so went for the paddle clutch, no problems
with clutch or gearbox so far

[steveobes]

Just to add, i took out my gearbox myself [only a carpenter]and i cut cross member out.
But what i did was fabricate some solid inserts and sleeves in stainless thjen bolted
together, never had ant problems with this method.
Only drawback is even with cross member out its not a easy job, plenty off jacking up
n levering to get gearbox out. iv done this twice now so i know its a bit of a ballache.

[Gadgeroonie]

jack the car so one wheel is in the air

if the wheel turns easy enough you have no lsd

if you have resistance then you have lsd