Water injection
Discussion
Properly mapped ERL or ERL triggered from injector duty cycle can work very well when running high boost on M400 spec engines which as standard are quite close to their knock threshold. If you wanted a quick and easy way to control detonation on an M400 spec engine and allow you to run boost sufficent for post 500bhp power figures then WI would more than likely be it.
In reality water injection is best left to race engines or on road engines used as a last resort to control combustion chamber temperatures under temporary high boost. It adds another failiure point (without knock detection or advanced WI monitoring then no flow = rapid engine damage) and adds a fair amount of weight.
Best Regards
Matt
In reality water injection is best left to race engines or on road engines used as a last resort to control combustion chamber temperatures under temporary high boost. It adds another failiure point (without knock detection or advanced WI monitoring then no flow = rapid engine damage) and adds a fair amount of weight.
Best Regards
Matt
Yellowshed (guy at Rouche who mapped the M400) said a while ago that they were looking at it. Apparently the M400 ECU is capable of running it properly. Just issues with where to put the water tank, and how to stop engine damage if water runs out. Water will help reduce charge temp, and in conjunction with bigger intercooler would allow more boost to be run. However, the engine would need to be re-mapped to run more boost. Do search, and there is more comprehensive explanation by someone for more clued up on ECU's than me.
Adrian
Adrian
joust said:
FFS the M400 already has "sufficent" power. Has anyone actually been in one and got out saying "ohhh - that could do with another 75bhp"...???? I think NOT!
Me, I'd spend the money on trying to improve my driving skills....
J
WI isn't just for power, if your live in an area with very high ambient temperatures and/or low octane fuel then an M400 will detonate - Water Injection would solve this by reducing the combustion chamber temperatures, no more power but no more risk of a failed piston from detonation.
Its surprising the amount of weight a WI system can add, especialy if its designed for a road car with fail safes and a WI tank large enough to last at least one tank of fuel. Of course it does get lighter as you use it
Matt
GreenV8S said:
More weight? The hardware can't weigh more than half a kilo, plus another couple of kilos for the water tank, surely the potential power gains are easily going to outweigh that?
until the water runs out and you're then left with a car that weighs more but has the the original power.
mind you might look cool at the local Texaco putting water as well as petrol under the clam.
Matt_FP said:
Its surprising the amount of weight a WI system can add, especialy if its designed for a road car with fail safes and a WI tank large enough to last at least one tank of fuel. Of course it does get lighter as you use it
Matt
It doesn't *have* to be big and heavy though, mine can't weigh more than half a kilo all in for the hardware plus a couple of kilos for the water. Of course if you go the whole hog and have ECUs and accumulators and priming pumps and all the electronics to control it, the weight probably goes up. But basic WI doesn't *have* to be heavy or complicated.
paulcundy said:
How long does 2 kilos of water last?
Dunno exactly. I'm running a single upstream jet which puts out about 250cc/minute when it's on, on my engine this a little more than I need but I figure a little excess won't hurt. Of course it doesn't run continuously. On average for mixed driving I probably use about a liter of water for twenty liters of fuel, something like that? One day I'll fit a bigger tank, and maybe a flow warning system (Aquamist are bringing out a nice compact control system soon) but in the mean time this does a good job of controlling detonation without any particular weight or complexity.
GreenV8S said:
Its surprising the amount of weight a WI system can add, especialy if its designed for a road car with fail safes and a WI tank large enough to last at least one tank of fuel. Of course it does get lighter as you use it
Matt
It doesn't *have* to be big and heavy though, mine can't weigh more than half a kilo all in for the hardware plus a couple of kilos for the water. Of course if you go the whole hog and have ECUs and accumulators and priming pumps and all the electronics to control it, the weight probably goes up. But basic WI doesn't *have* to be heavy or complicated.
Theres the crux of the matter, for an OEM quality installation which under no circumstances (pump fail, water out etc.) will lead to engine damage it does have to be fairly complex which will always add weight.
I agree with you that theres no reason you can't pressure switch an ERL pump, meter it via jet size and end up with a system which 'works' but if your relying on it to surpress detonation then you've got to have fail safes and spare water capacity, and the ability to retard timing and/or boost should it fail etc. etc.
Matt
Quote
FFS the M400 already has "sufficient" power. Has anyone actually been in one and got out saying "ohhh - that could do with another 75bhp"...???? I think NOT!
J
YES I HAVE.
I was at Spa and the ring a week ago and felt that my M400 needed at least another 75bhp and preferably another 275bhp.
The fact is that the car is very quick through the bends and stops well enough, it even accelerates to 120mph quite quickly, BUT it soon runs out of puff after this, and especially up long hills against some other cars, admittedly most costing nearly twice as much as an M400.
I felt that it was a shame that with such a wonderful setup and balance of handling and brakes that you have to THASH the engine to try to keep up.
If my Noble M400 had something like the RS6 4.2 v8 with Twin Turbos it would put out 450bhp plus more torque and in a very relaxed way (without thrashing to keep up) and then it would be V easy to get 500 to 600bhp out of it for special days. Admittedly this would add some weight but not much more than the difference between a lightweight driver verses a heavyweight driver plus a heavy weight passenger?
I weight about 16 stone and with passengers wanting to experience the Noble most of the time at Spa and the Ring I still out handled and out braked most others even with this extra weight penalty, but cars with less bhp/ton were leaving me for dead along fast straight and I felt that although the top speed of a M400 is an ESTIMATED 185mph I have never seen more that 165mph not even at Bruntingthorpe (by the way the speedo is spot on between 50 and 150mph against my GPS, not even 1mph out)
I think the car can handle more power and a little extra weight would not be as frustrating as the lack of power that is required.
Admittedly even with my extra wished 175bhp, there are many drivers with better skills that could get a standard M400 round most tracks much quicker than me. But I am not that driver with better skills and so want the extra bhp to help ME with my limited ability.
Its not so much that I don’t like to be beat, (but I don’t) its more a case of shoving £60k of Noble up the toffee noses of SOME £140K+ Porsche and Ferrari drivers who call the Noble a kit car and recon its slow, and if a few extra horses help me with this quest to prove them wrong then that cant be a bad thing.
AutocomTom
Er, by wanting to add an extra 175bhp you are actually concurring with the same "toffee nose" ferrari owners that you want to prove wrong in saying that the M400 is slow. It isn't. Why do you care what they say anyway?
Go and spend a few quid on driver tuition so you can use what you have rather than adding more power with more lag which will make it harder to get the power down out of corners and probably ruin the car IMO. www.carlimits.com would be a good starting point.
>> Edited by m12_nathan on Tuesday 12th April 08:07
Go and spend a few quid on driver tuition so you can use what you have rather than adding more power with more lag which will make it harder to get the power down out of corners and probably ruin the car IMO. www.carlimits.com would be a good starting point.
>> Edited by m12_nathan on Tuesday 12th April 08:07
TomB said:
a few extra horses help me with this quest to prove them wrong then that cant be a bad thing.
AutocomTom
Dear Tom,
Here's an idea, change your engine for the Radical V8, lighter, probably save 150Kg on overall weight, lower COG, six speed sequential box, 380 bhp normaly aspirated so keep one turbo and you'd be at 500 bhp easily. That would stuff it up the noses of those awfull Ferrari drivers.
Oh and that scrap old underpowered engine you'd taken out, I tell you what I'd take it off your hands.
Regards
Paul C
Any car that is stated as doing
0-60 in 3.7
and
0-100 in 8.8
is not slow in my book. I think the 3R has plenty of power, I can only lust after the power of an M400.
I was at the ring a few years ago and I saw the Smart car being tested. The test driver was lapping it quicker than a whole host of "quick" cars. I bet he would make an M400 look like the quickest car of the day, on any day!!!
(for some reason they were not too keen to let me on in an A reg escort diesel!!)
0-60 in 3.7
and
0-100 in 8.8
is not slow in my book. I think the 3R has plenty of power, I can only lust after the power of an M400.
I was at the ring a few years ago and I saw the Smart car being tested. The test driver was lapping it quicker than a whole host of "quick" cars. I bet he would make an M400 look like the quickest car of the day, on any day!!!
(for some reason they were not too keen to let me on in an A reg escort diesel!!)
Matt_FP said:
WI isn't just for power, if your live in an area with very high ambient temperatures and/or low octane fuel then an M400 will detonate
But where is that (apart from some very high place in the jungle
)? 98RON is available everywhere in Europe, and normally 100+ is available (our more enlightened German friends have Optimax with 100+ octane!), and I've not heard Martin say he's had any problems and he lives in one of the hottest places around it seems (git).
I presumed as the car had been mapped for 95 that if you stick 97/98 in it you'd not have a problem in normal places?
I take your point though Matt.
J
>> Edited by joust on Tuesday 12th April 09:43
TomB said:
Admittedly even with my extra wished 175bhp, there are many drivers with better skills that could get a standard M400 round most tracks much quicker than me. But I am not that driver with better skills and so want the extra bhp to help ME with my limited ability.
For 1/20th of the cost of your upgrade you could gain some skills that would sort that out that problem....
I refer the honourable gentleman to the following video.
http://elise.pinkcore.com/video/One_Eleven_Association_111S_versus_F40_Monthlery_2001.mpeg
Ferrari F40. 3000cc F/I Twin Turbo V8, 478 BHP, 0-60 @ 3.8 sec. Weighing 1200Kilos, Power/Weight 398.33 bhp/tonne
Lotus Elise 111S. 1800cc IL4 N/A, 143 BHP, 0-60 @ 5.3, Weighing 714 Kilos, Power/Weight @ 200.28 bhp/ton.
So, on that basis looks like you'd need to find 400bhp more to make up for your ability?
I really enjoyed the Cadence and Tracksense training I've had, and will be going back for more over the course of the year. At £250-400 a day it seems the best possible spend on "upgrades" to me.
J
Edited to sort out the link
>> Edited by joust on Tuesday 12th April 09:47
TomB said:
The fact is that the car is very quick through the bends and stops well enough, it even accelerates to 120mph quite quickly, BUT it soon runs out of puff after this, and especially up long hills against some other cars, admittedly most costing nearly twice as much as an M400.
I'm not convinced throwing power at it, is going to make radical differences to the aerodynamic wall you start to hit at these high speeds.
I guess you need to honestly ask yourself what your corner exit speeds were like, as they make such a huge difference on the following straights. If they weren't optimal, you'll get more from practising your driving.
joust said:
WI isn't just for power, if your live in an area with very high ambient temperatures and/or low octane fuel then an M400 will detonate
But where is that
J
Well in this case South Africa with 35degree + ambients. A properly configured and designed WI system in this enviroment would allow the car to generate the full 425bhp safely, reliably and pretty much indefinately.
Even in Normal conditions I'd recommend the M400 was run on 97+ octane fuel.
Best Regards
Matt
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