Current views on M400 vs Sagaris?
Discussion
I've had a Tuscan S for 2 years and wondering what to do next. I never went for a Noble before because I much prefer open tops - however, life moves on and now I'd rather have something which was better on track even if it does mean a hard top.
I've driven both the M400 and the Sagaris on the road - and on the road I think the Sag is a better option. Performance wise there isn't much in it, but it has a boot, is more comfortable/less spartan: and is a much better place to be for long journeys. By the way the Sag is streets ahead of the Tuscan re handling.
I was supposed to be driving a 3R on track with Trakshare on Friday but that didn't happen (for those who don't know, a customer of theirs crashed their 360CS at Goodwood midweek and was killed instantly). I did blag a ride with Scott Logan in his M400. Now, I haven't driven a Sag on track but the M400 (even as a passenger) was very impressive. The mags all say the M400 is better than the Sag on track, but the lap times are pretty close. PLus, the mags all tend to say the M400 is better on road too and I'm not sure I agree with that - as I say, performance wise there is not much in it. (The same mags also rave about Porsches, but I'm not going to buy one).
However nearest Noble dealer is 1 to 1 1/2 hrs away (Mole) which is a pain whereas nearest TVR dealer is only 15 mins; Sag is cheaper, and there are plenty 2nd hand already at up to 5k off if you look on Autotrader. I suspect there will be quite a few 2nd hand M400s in a year or two since production of the 3R seems to have all but stopped.
This being a Noble forum there probably won't be too many people saying buy a Sagaris instead of an M400, but I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has recent actual experience of both cars. I tried doing a search in this forum but the threads were all quite old (or else I did it wrongly).
I've driven both the M400 and the Sagaris on the road - and on the road I think the Sag is a better option. Performance wise there isn't much in it, but it has a boot, is more comfortable/less spartan: and is a much better place to be for long journeys. By the way the Sag is streets ahead of the Tuscan re handling.
I was supposed to be driving a 3R on track with Trakshare on Friday but that didn't happen (for those who don't know, a customer of theirs crashed their 360CS at Goodwood midweek and was killed instantly). I did blag a ride with Scott Logan in his M400. Now, I haven't driven a Sag on track but the M400 (even as a passenger) was very impressive. The mags all say the M400 is better than the Sag on track, but the lap times are pretty close. PLus, the mags all tend to say the M400 is better on road too and I'm not sure I agree with that - as I say, performance wise there is not much in it. (The same mags also rave about Porsches, but I'm not going to buy one).
However nearest Noble dealer is 1 to 1 1/2 hrs away (Mole) which is a pain whereas nearest TVR dealer is only 15 mins; Sag is cheaper, and there are plenty 2nd hand already at up to 5k off if you look on Autotrader. I suspect there will be quite a few 2nd hand M400s in a year or two since production of the 3R seems to have all but stopped.
This being a Noble forum there probably won't be too many people saying buy a Sagaris instead of an M400, but I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has recent actual experience of both cars. I tried doing a search in this forum but the threads were all quite old (or else I did it wrongly).
www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=25&t=188045
Try finding a similar thread on the Noble forums.....you wont.
Martin.
Try finding a similar thread on the Noble forums.....you wont.
Martin.
I really like the Sag so think its a tough choice. If it didn't have the spd6 I'd certainly entertain owning one. Although that lemans thread put me off further.
Buy the one you know you won't wish you'd bought when you see an example pass you by on the road. Whilst the mags do seem to favour the m400 its you who's driving it, not them.
I will say that the Noble has the most sorted handling of any car I've owned. The on limit behaviour is very forgiving, which is stunning given that its mid engined.
I don't know how many Sag's have been sold, but I'd question why so many are available second hand already (I think thats what you said?) when there aren't nearly as many m400s which have been selling for a good deal longer.
I'd heard about the bonnet flying off. Obviously disastrous/inexcusable, but that seems to be the "only" consistent complaint. Is it reason to write off the whole car, when it can probably be quite an easy fix?
The two main reasons they are all for sale 2nd hand is becuase (a) too many quality niggles at handover (b) a lot of Sags have been made in the first place - not too many M400s out there yet.
Noble is plainly well ahead on the niggles front, but I knew that already. I think the key question is how a Sag does on track as compared to a Noble: is it crap by comparison, pretty close, or what?
The two main reasons they are all for sale 2nd hand is becuase (a) too many quality niggles at handover (b) a lot of Sags have been made in the first place - not too many M400s out there yet.
Noble is plainly well ahead on the niggles front, but I knew that already. I think the key question is how a Sag does on track as compared to a Noble: is it crap by comparison, pretty close, or what?
I've not driven the Sag, and so can't comment on driving, but I have seen the Saggy up close and have seen a professional driver drive one.
The Saggyarse has the following key points
* Wild and wacky styling outside, even Max Power(?)
* Nice, "plain" interior inside
* Speed 6 engine, history of failures
* Tuned chassis, but easy to ground out on bump stops / wheel arch over compressions
* Consistently 2-10% slower around track on performance tests
* Relativly consistently quoted as being setup "too soft" with some "interesting" handling traits
The M400 has the following key points
* "Supercar" styling, unresolved in places
* Functional interior, but not "styled", more "focused"
* Ford V6 engine with no history of perienial failure
* "When books come to be written about car handling in the future, Noble will be at the front" (Autocar) chassis. Totally resolved, but can be a bit jiggly at low speed over poor surface, but "loads up" exceptionaly well
* Consistently 2-10% faster around track on performance tests - need something £120k+ or a "skateboard with engine" to beat it
* Totally benign handling, you really can't get any suprises out of it
Now, the key thing for me wouldn't be the last one. Unless you are in racing driver class, you'll probably be nowhere near the limits of the car (I know I'm not in the M400).
To that end, I'd just go and drive both, for a hour or so, see which one you look at the longest before leaving, and then make your decision based on that and taking into account if you are prepared to be "at the front end" of the Saggy queue, rather than "mid life" with the M400 is.
J
The Saggyarse has the following key points
* Wild and wacky styling outside, even Max Power(?)
* Nice, "plain" interior inside
* Speed 6 engine, history of failures
* Tuned chassis, but easy to ground out on bump stops / wheel arch over compressions
* Consistently 2-10% slower around track on performance tests
* Relativly consistently quoted as being setup "too soft" with some "interesting" handling traits
The M400 has the following key points
* "Supercar" styling, unresolved in places
* Functional interior, but not "styled", more "focused"
* Ford V6 engine with no history of perienial failure
* "When books come to be written about car handling in the future, Noble will be at the front" (Autocar) chassis. Totally resolved, but can be a bit jiggly at low speed over poor surface, but "loads up" exceptionaly well
* Consistently 2-10% faster around track on performance tests - need something £120k+ or a "skateboard with engine" to beat it
* Totally benign handling, you really can't get any suprises out of it
Now, the key thing for me wouldn't be the last one. Unless you are in racing driver class, you'll probably be nowhere near the limits of the car (I know I'm not in the M400).
To that end, I'd just go and drive both, for a hour or so, see which one you look at the longest before leaving, and then make your decision based on that and taking into account if you are prepared to be "at the front end" of the Saggy queue, rather than "mid life" with the M400 is.
J
I looked at both at the motorshow last year. The sagaris exterior finnish wasn't too hot, whereas the M400 was very good. My opinion was that if they can't get a show car right what hope have they got with a normal customer car. TVR salesman was also pushy, and trying to get a £5k deposit off me which just made me walk off. TVR interiors are gorgeous though. Haven't driven a Sagaris, so can't compare on the road.
Do you buy the plastic car from Blackpool, or the one from Hinckly. I went for the M400, but might change it to a different plastic car, built (ish) not too far from Noble's factory.
Do you buy the plastic car from Blackpool, or the one from Hinckly. I went for the M400, but might change it to a different plastic car, built (ish) not too far from Noble's factory.
mad-doug said:A tragic story it seems - reported here
I was supposed to be driving a 3R on track with Trakshare on Friday but that didn't happen (for those who don't know, a customer of theirs crashed their 360CS at Goodwood midweek and was killed instantly).
www.lynnnews.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=991&ArticleID=1072799
J
Joust, thanks.
What I heard at Brands was that the driver crashed at the end of the Lavant [Levant?] straight although other stories say it was in the pits area.
I'm following the other M400 threads with interest. Current thinking is to give it a year or two, in the possibly forlorn hope that some 2nd hand ones will come in at about 50k. The new M400 price is just too much for me, and although I could easily afford a 2nd hand 3R I'd always regret not holding out for the M400.
What I heard at Brands was that the driver crashed at the end of the Lavant [Levant?] straight although other stories say it was in the pits area.
I'm following the other M400 threads with interest. Current thinking is to give it a year or two, in the possibly forlorn hope that some 2nd hand ones will come in at about 50k. The new M400 price is just too much for me, and although I could easily afford a 2nd hand 3R I'd always regret not holding out for the M400.
Not sure about that. I've been looking to get an M400 for a while (once some booger buys my Radical) - probably wait til early next year now. Anyway, seen one private sale M400 and he wanted £46k for it, higher miles than normal though at 10k. The dealer demos don't seem to be going anywhere fast at £55k.
Most Nobles are very optimistically priced privately (and don't sell) so asking what a dealer will buy your M400 for (if he'll buy it) will give a prospective purchaser a better idea of used prices with few about so early. Add 5% for a private sale. I reckon anyone getting more than £45k for a used M400 would be doing well if it has over 5k miles.
Most of the people that wanted a new M400, will have bought one by now too and sales will slow unless they update it I think, interior probably best place to start. Not knocking the Noble by an means or I wouldn;t be buying one but best to keep your eyes wide open when buying a specialised car with a small market of petrolheads. I've learnt that at least twice.
Most Nobles are very optimistically priced privately (and don't sell) so asking what a dealer will buy your M400 for (if he'll buy it) will give a prospective purchaser a better idea of used prices with few about so early. Add 5% for a private sale. I reckon anyone getting more than £45k for a used M400 would be doing well if it has over 5k miles.
Most of the people that wanted a new M400, will have bought one by now too and sales will slow unless they update it I think, interior probably best place to start. Not knocking the Noble by an means or I wouldn;t be buying one but best to keep your eyes wide open when buying a specialised car with a small market of petrolheads. I've learnt that at least twice.
joust said:
If M400's follow the early M12's (like mine) then they will be around the low 50's after about 16-24 months from sale, so not that long now.
You might be lucky and find a high milage one though - the things are so nice to drive you just can't resist it!
J
Disagree.
For a straight sale I was offered between 24 & 28k for a 22 month old 9.5k miles GTO3 by noble dealers. So at best over a grand a month depreciation on a car that cost me £52k.
Quoting prices for trade against another Noble does not give a true reflection on the actual depreciation.
AL001 said:
Not sure about that. I've been looking to get an M400 for a while (once some booger buys my Radical) - probably wait til early next year now. Anyway, seen one private sale M400 and he wanted £46k for it, higher miles than normal though at 10k. The dealer demos don't seem to be going anywhere fast at £55k.
Most Nobles are very optimistically priced privately (and don't sell) so asking what a dealer will buy your M400 for (if he'll buy it) will give a prospective purchaser a better idea of used prices with few about so early. Add 5% for a private sale. I reckon anyone getting more than £45k for a used M400 would be doing well if it has over 5k miles.
Most of the people that wanted a new M400, will have bought one by now too and sales will slow unless they update it I think, interior probably best place to start. Not knocking the Noble by an means or I wouldn;t be buying one but best to keep your eyes wide open when buying a specialised car with a small market of petrolheads. I've learnt that at least twice.
I've been offered an M400 for £44.5k but it wasn't the right colour. I still reckon sub 40k once the winter sets in and buyers dry up.
m12_nathan said:I hate to disagree with you, but given I got more than that for the 2.5l at 24000 miles, 2&1/2 years old when I changed it for a list price M400, perhaps you just upset the dealer???
For a straight sale I was offered between 24 & 28k for a 22 month old 9.5k miles GTO3 by noble dealers. So at best over a grand a month depreciation on a car that cost me £52k.
I actually tend nowdays to go by the "sold" on PH adverts as that seems to show what will and wont shift. Given there is a 2003 GTO3 (not 3R) that sold for 34k @ 9,800 miles after being on there for just 20 or so days, whatever you said to the dealer must have really upset him.
www.pistonheads.com/sales/38699.htm
That, %age wise, places a M400 at £40.4k after 2 years and 10,000 miles.
37% after nearly two years and 10,000 miles, private sale, is bloddy good in my book!
J
I've driven the M400 and Sagaris on road and track. For me the M400 wins for a road toy and a track day killer. It's significantly easier to drive fast on track than the TVR IMHO. I couldn't believe the fun I was having in a car I'd never driven before, on a circuit I didn't know, after only a handful of laps. The TVR in question was fitted with track day tyres too so this isn't a question of the rubber the car was wearing.
The TVR makes more sense practically for a primarily road car I suppose.
Personally at the moment, if I changed, it would be for the M400 and I've been driving TVR's since '98.
The TVR makes more sense practically for a primarily road car I suppose.
Personally at the moment, if I changed, it would be for the M400 and I've been driving TVR's since '98.
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