noble in the Wet
Discussion
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/robert.hopewell/pistonheads/wetclip.wmv
(Hope this clip is ok to be linked to from here)
(Hope this clip is ok to be linked to from here)
Easy to spin the wheels in 3rd gear in the wet, but car still tracks straight - unlike the TVR I used to have which went sideways (either way depending on its mood). Wet is not a problem if you are sensible. See Autocar's Drivers Car of the Year - their only crticism was lack of ABS.
N1 GJT said:
their only crticism was lack of ABS.
W4nkers...while I'll admit ABS is a great thing on shopping cars, and 4x4s being driven on the school run by homicidal mothers, it's not right for a "Drivers" car. Too many electronic gizmos (i.e. one), detracts from the simple pleasure of driving, in as much as it's the car doing the skillful bits for you.
Martin.
N1 GJT said:
Easy to spin the wheels in 3rd gear in the wet, but car still tracks straight - unlike the TVR I used to have which went sideways (either way depending on its mood). Wet is not a problem if you are sensible. See Autocar's Drivers Car of the Year - their only crticism was lack of ABS.
O/T
I spotted you today around the lanes from P.ris to Great Miss. Having a blat, You came up behind me thru the lanes and when we turned right out of the junction i indicated to tell you the road was clear overtake.
I was driving the big white lorry.
Sorry for the thread hijack
V6GTO said:
their only crticism was lack of ABS.
W4nkers...while I'll admit ABS is a great thing on shopping cars, and 4x4s being driven on the school run by homicidal mothers, it's not right for a "Drivers" car. Too many electronic gizmos (i.e. one), detracts from the simple pleasure of driving, in as much as it's the car doing the skillful bits for you.
Martin.
Disagree there Martin, go and try an elise 111R and tell me the brakes are not amazing. No human can brake each individual wheel at the limit of it's grip. As long as the system is set up so as not to be intrusive (EG 111R or, the CSL system which is calibrated for semi slicks, the Porsche motorsport ABS) then the only reason for not having it is development cost.
m12_nathan said:I thought the general concensus (I've not driven one) was that the brake pedal on a 111R had very little feel, and hence wasn't liked as much as the original setup.
go and try an elise 111R and tell me the brakes are not amazing. No human can brake each individual wheel at the limit of it's grip.
It's been proven time and time again that ABS verse a skilled driver will lengthen braking distances (there is a white paper available from Bosch that demonstrates this), however as a safety feature it is well worth it and should be encouraged on that basis alone.
Clearly cost is a significant part of it not being included in the Noble, but I don't think it's any worse because it doesn't have it, but I am amazed at the 'skill' of the system on the X5 - however the X5 clearly takes longer to stop than the Noble in the first place, and so I think starting with a braking system that can retard the car at the best possible rate has to be the first priority (and clearly isn't in most car manufactuer cases....)
J
I thought it was fine when I've driven one but I've not spent a huge amount of time driving a non 111R elise (just a brief test drive) for comparison. I'm not saying the Noble is worse because of the lack of it, just that as an additional safety system I don't think it ruins a car or takes away from the experiance of driving. A correctly calibrated system won't intervene until the driver has made an error in braking anyway (even on track) and I'd rather have abs cut in to say I've messed up than hit a wall.
Returning to the question 
. If you have a Range Rover, (or other 4*4)and a Noble, which one do you THINK you use in the wet!
As far as I'm concerned its not whether its wet or dry but the terrain you are driving on. Smooth slippery wet road, Noble gets you there safer and swifter, not least because without the gizzmo's you get on mass produced cars, you actually concentrate more and indeed enjoy your driving more in the Noble. There is a bad patch of M5 immediately south of J19 (Portbury) which always has a film of water running across it in heavy rain. The Noble laps that up when all around are braking to a dangerously low speed (ie 40-50 mph.
However if you want to sail across a ploughed and muddy field... can't guarantee the Noble will make it.
Then again others may differ...
. If you have a Range Rover, (or other 4*4)and a Noble, which one do you THINK you use in the wet! As far as I'm concerned its not whether its wet or dry but the terrain you are driving on. Smooth slippery wet road, Noble gets you there safer and swifter, not least because without the gizzmo's you get on mass produced cars, you actually concentrate more and indeed enjoy your driving more in the Noble. There is a bad patch of M5 immediately south of J19 (Portbury) which always has a film of water running across it in heavy rain. The Noble laps that up when all around are braking to a dangerously low speed (ie 40-50 mph.
However if you want to sail across a ploughed and muddy field... can't guarantee the Noble will make it.
Then again others may differ...
ya55erm said:
What are nobles like in the wet?
Anthony has two in car video clips taken in very wet conditions at Silverstone.
www.gto3.com/gallery/index.php?dir=./Video
The last two at the bottom. The one labelled skid pan antics is in fact on track at Sillverstone on the international circuit.
Regards
Paul C
joust said:
No - the nut behind the wheel does the steering
ABS will lengthen stopping distances as it's main aim is to keep the wheels turning so that you can steer. Consequently ABS will stop a car slower than a driver that has learnt how to cadence brake.
J
Nah cadence breaking is just a shit human ABS and you have to modulate all 4 wheels at the same time. What ABS is worse than, in a straight line, is a driver who can limit brakw perfectly on the varying road surfaces of our highways. i.e. not many people, especially in a panic situation.
As Nathan says though, some ABS systems are better than others.
I say again...ABS detracts from the pleasure of driving. With an ABS equiped car you just stand on the middle pedal as hard as you can, knowing that there is no skill needed on your part. I'll leave it for the people who want to drive without concentrating, don't have the skill to drive properly, or can't swich it off (which is me when I drive the Scenic 
).
Martin.
). Martin.
V6GTO said:
I say again...ABS detracts from the pleasure of driving. With an ABS equiped car you just stand on the middle pedal as hard as you can, knowing that there is no skill needed on your part. I'll leave it for the people who want to drive without concentrating, don't have the skill to drive properly, or can't swich it off (which is me when I drive the Scenic
Martin.
Not really as you can still modulate just below ABS cut in if you are in a decent sports car and you will benefit from less stopping distance. I'm sure its pants on your scenic though
paulcundy said:
What are nobles like in the wet?
Anthony has two in car video clips taken in very wet conditions at Silverstone.
www.gto3.com/gallery/index.php?dir=./Video
The last two at the bottom. The one labelled skid pan antics is in fact on track at Sillverstone on the international circuit.
Regards
Paul C
Suggestion!
Do not watch the Cundy and Jenkins clip from North weald as it could make you feel ill!
Martins camera work is truly terrible!
DanH said:
Nah cadence breaking is just a shit human ABS and you have to modulate all 4 wheels at the same time.
I hate to point out the obvious, but the human brain is a million times better at working out what's going wrong than a £50 embedded controller that runs your ABS system.
True cadence braking, i.e. modulating the brake pressure to prevent locking (not letting it lock and then taking your foot off - that's called unlocking the wheels) and keeping it at near close to the optimum retardation point is not hard to learn, and will beat ABS on most surfaces.
The exception both ways is Snow - ABS systems are crap at detecting that, almost every person can work out how to stop a car in snow, and rapid changes in grip over the braking system where a human will struggle.
In 90 times out of 100 a well trained human brain will be able to stop quicker. But that's the point - in 90 times out of 100 of "normal" untrained people, the ABS system will be better for them.
If you want proof about brains vs. machines, just find me a car that can drive down the road without crashing.... At the recent Robot Car challenge Stanley managed to not hit anything over 132 miles. Sounds great, until you realise that it could only do 19mph, required nearlty 20 cameras, radar and laser systems, had nearly £250,000 worth of computers and still couldn't handle oversteer if it needed to....
ABS is an excellent addition, but you can't say a generalised sweeping statement as you just have. If you want proof that ABS isn't the shortest braking distance, then check out this ROSPA braking test of various vehicles
www.rospa.com/roadsafety/advice/driving/truck_braking.htm
You'll notice that the Mondeo (non ABS) stops from 30mpg quicker than the Picaso (with ABS), and interestingly the ABS only manages to stop the car on the Picaso 1.7m shorter than the Mondeo just locking it's wheels up...
Again, ABS is great, and is a major contribution to general road safety, but if you prepare yourself well and drive within the limits of the road, then one has to wonder if the benifts outweigh the disadvantages.
J
>> Edited by joust on Sunday 16th October 20:36
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