what do i need to know.
Discussion
Hi guys,
i'm looking at a noble as a fun weekend/track car i've been told that it's best to steer clear of the 2.5 and also the 3.0 with the 5 speed gearbox due to an issue with the diff(?)
i guess what i'd really like to know is why.
the reason i ask is that i've seen a 3.0 with a 5 speed box that fits all my criteria.
so what should i worry about?
i'm looking at a noble as a fun weekend/track car i've been told that it's best to steer clear of the 2.5 and also the 3.0 with the 5 speed gearbox due to an issue with the diff(?)
i guess what i'd really like to know is why.
the reason i ask is that i've seen a 3.0 with a 5 speed box that fits all my criteria.
so what should i worry about?
Had the same worries/queries when I was in a position to buy one, spent some time on here finding out about reliability, parts, likely problems etc. After mostly positive feedback I went loking for the right car.
The diff issue affects any open diff'd M12, I took the view that a quaiffe LSD is £500 (for a 5 speed) so if it fails it's not the end of the world. My car hasn't been tracked but then again it only takes the wrong circumstances to break it but try to find a car that's had a (relatively) easy life.
I didn't buy a 2.5 because of the ECU problems and lower BHP, but a well sorted 2.5 with all the mods is as good a buy as a nice 3.0. There are mods even on the 3.0 such as cooling fan upgrade, trackday sump and handbrake cable mod which really are important which you should budget for (especially for track use).
I bought a GTO-3 last November which has been brilliant and blows my previous cars into the weeds. Only problem that has started this week is the heater fan has stopped working, due to be sorted in next few days. Otherwise 1500 miles of driving bliss.....
Dave
The diff issue affects any open diff'd M12, I took the view that a quaiffe LSD is £500 (for a 5 speed) so if it fails it's not the end of the world. My car hasn't been tracked but then again it only takes the wrong circumstances to break it but try to find a car that's had a (relatively) easy life.
I didn't buy a 2.5 because of the ECU problems and lower BHP, but a well sorted 2.5 with all the mods is as good a buy as a nice 3.0. There are mods even on the 3.0 such as cooling fan upgrade, trackday sump and handbrake cable mod which really are important which you should budget for (especially for track use).
I bought a GTO-3 last November which has been brilliant and blows my previous cars into the weeds. Only problem that has started this week is the heater fan has stopped working, due to be sorted in next few days. Otherwise 1500 miles of driving bliss.....
Dave
crb1 said:
Dave,
Is your car in front of Ashton Court. If so you are close. Very Close!
Chris
Is your car in front of Ashton Court. If so you are close. Very Close!
Chris
You have to remember that it may only be £500 for the LSD but it's 22hrs labour to remove and fit the diff, add new clutch and other bits that should be replaced as the engine is out and it aint cheap.
There is not many 2.5's with the std ECU (I'm one of them) and there is a few mods that can be done to up the power/handling.
If you do find one with the fixed diff, you could get the ECU re-mapped to change the delivery of power (or is that to save the box).
Bondy
Harsh,
I have had my GTO-3 for about a year now (6000 miles). All has been trouble free, other than a failed lambda sensor.
I love it to bits and it never fails to impress me. I also have the original open diff and it is soooo much fun. But yes it is a weak point. My view is that I will carry on to enjoy the car as is (Apart froma few choice mods) and will replace it once it goes pop. I bought the car knowing about the diff issue but it never pu me off as I knew the car had been looked after!!
Anyway, good luck with your search. You wont regret it at all
James
I have had my GTO-3 for about a year now (6000 miles). All has been trouble free, other than a failed lambda sensor.
I love it to bits and it never fails to impress me. I also have the original open diff and it is soooo much fun. But yes it is a weak point. My view is that I will carry on to enjoy the car as is (Apart froma few choice mods) and will replace it once it goes pop. I bought the car knowing about the diff issue but it never pu me off as I knew the car had been looked after!!
Anyway, good luck with your search. You wont regret it at all
James
Bondy,
I'm lucky as I'm a vehicle tech so the labour is covered as I can do the work myself. 22 hours labour plus parts obviously makes the job very expensive which you would want to cost in to any purchase.
I've been impressed though by the overall build quality and reliability so far and also the advice from the factory.
Dave
I'm lucky as I'm a vehicle tech so the labour is covered as I can do the work myself. 22 hours labour plus parts obviously makes the job very expensive which you would want to cost in to any purchase.
I've been impressed though by the overall build quality and reliability so far and also the advice from the factory.
Dave
I have had my GTO-3 for 3years, I never had a problem with the open diff until I had a power upgrade from approx 325bhp(about average for a "3"to 390bhp after about 20 months of trouble free driving...the diff then lasted about 100 miles... I would say that on standard power and with a little luck you should be ok with an open diff.
to 390bhp after about 20 months of trouble free driving...the diff then lasted about 100 miles... I would say that on standard power and with a little luck you should be ok with an open diff. Just to clarify, the reason the open diff can be a problem is due to the kick back when one of the wheels spins up, then regains grip.
This then puts a huge load on the diff, and can break the planetary gears.
The original 2.5L had a very peaky power delivery, which meant that in slightly damp conditions it was very easy to hit boost, spin up a wheel and maybe lunch a diff. All my diffs broke in these situations.
However, later maps for the 2.5 now produce a very smooth power delivery, and are much less peaky. Also, the open diff means you get hardly any understear. The LSD does tend to make the car understear more.
John Noble motor sport remapped mine after I had a new exhaust fitted, and the power delivery is really smooth now.
So, don't be put off by an open diff. Just know how to live with it.
--Jools
My two pennies worth...
The main difference between the 2.5 & 3.0 is about 30-40bhp. Apart from that, they are very similar.
The 2.5 had a problematic ECU (Magneti Morelli [MM] unit) but there are not many left with this. Those that still have it are probably okay, if they’ve done a few miles.
The manifolds can crack on the 2.5 and the Exhaust mounting bracket can break on the 3.0. Both can be helped by additional bracing being welded onto the weak/stress points.
Advisable mods are that the 2.5 needs the non MM ECU and the radiator cowling & fan upgrade. They both need fuel pump loom upgrade, track sump (if your going to track/cane it) and fuel pump upgrade if you’re increasing horse power; i.e. having an exhaust mod. The 5 speed box is apparently okay on a 2.5 with LSD (not sure about a 3.0 though). If the diff goes on either car you are looking at 2-3k with labour, depending on what you do at the time (clutch); that’s why the LSD is advisable. However, as has been posted, you may be fortunate and not have to do it.
Both outstanding cars, air filter intakes behind your ear on the 2.5 make a lovely sound though. I’ll take you out for a spin on the next FB5K Ace Café meet next month if you like.
2.5 or 3.0 – you’ll still have a hugh
The main difference between the 2.5 & 3.0 is about 30-40bhp. Apart from that, they are very similar.
The 2.5 had a problematic ECU (Magneti Morelli [MM] unit) but there are not many left with this. Those that still have it are probably okay, if they’ve done a few miles.
The manifolds can crack on the 2.5 and the Exhaust mounting bracket can break on the 3.0. Both can be helped by additional bracing being welded onto the weak/stress points.
Advisable mods are that the 2.5 needs the non MM ECU and the radiator cowling & fan upgrade. They both need fuel pump loom upgrade, track sump (if your going to track/cane it) and fuel pump upgrade if you’re increasing horse power; i.e. having an exhaust mod. The 5 speed box is apparently okay on a 2.5 with LSD (not sure about a 3.0 though). If the diff goes on either car you are looking at 2-3k with labour, depending on what you do at the time (clutch); that’s why the LSD is advisable. However, as has been posted, you may be fortunate and not have to do it.
Both outstanding cars, air filter intakes behind your ear on the 2.5 make a lovely sound though. I’ll take you out for a spin on the next FB5K Ace Café meet next month if you like.
2.5 or 3.0 – you’ll still have a hugh
Thanks for all the replies guys,
really informative.
i believe the next ace meet is on the 14th not the 7th, but i should be there
(as should Nancy who is the real noble buyer)
so say a 3.0 with a 5 speed and no track day sump,
am i right in thinking about 3.5 to 4k is going to be needed to turn it into what i'm looking for?
really informative.
i believe the next ace meet is on the 14th not the 7th, but i should be there
(as should Nancy who is the real noble buyer)
so say a 3.0 with a 5 speed and no track day sump,
am i right in thinking about 3.5 to 4k is going to be needed to turn it into what i'm looking for?
Harsh said:
Thanks for all the replies guys,
really informative.
i believe the next ace meet is on the 14th not the 7th, but i should be there
(as should Nancy who is the real noble buyer)
so say a 3.0 with a 5 speed and no track day sump,
am i right in thinking about 3.5 to 4k is going to be needed to turn it into what i'm looking for?
really informative.
i believe the next ace meet is on the 14th not the 7th, but i should be there
(as should Nancy who is the real noble buyer)
so say a 3.0 with a 5 speed and no track day sump,
am i right in thinking about 3.5 to 4k is going to be needed to turn it into what i'm looking for?
If you mean 3.5-4k to add sump and 6spd/LSD then no. I belive the parts for 6spd is about 1.8k + linkage and same again to get it fitted + 500 ish for LSD (while you do this you should also hae M400 linkage) and then add TDS for 1k. And this doesn't include any labour to remove engine
This is only based on info I have picked up and questions asked.
I've just realised that you will do all the work yourself so your estimate may well be ok.
Bondy
actually i wouldn't be doing the work myself at all, so we're talking labour on top.
so the bill is getting seriously large now.
i guess it's all about negotiation really.
are there decent specialists to do this sort of work
or is that what you get from Noble dealers
do they tend to be enthusiasts as well?
so the bill is getting seriously large now.
i guess it's all about negotiation really.
are there decent specialists to do this sort of work
or is that what you get from Noble dealers
do they tend to be enthusiasts as well?
Harsh said:
actually i wouldn't be doing the work myself at all, so we're talking labour on top.
so the bill is getting seriously large now.
i guess it's all about negotiation really.
are there decent specialists to do this sort of work
or is that what you get from Noble dealers
do they tend to be enthusiasts as well?
so the bill is getting seriously large now.
i guess it's all about negotiation really.
are there decent specialists to do this sort of work
or is that what you get from Noble dealers
do they tend to be enthusiasts as well?
Sorry it was DG that said he will be doing work his self.
Plans do a good rate and do know what they are talking about, I'm sure Gary at Crazy Horses also can do the work.
It was plans that gave me an idea of the costs when I had my Diff done.
Bondy
To anyone that has driven both the open and limited slip diffs, is there a noticeable difference? The one I crashed was far more 'lively' (it was all over the place at times tbh) than my current one and I don't know if it is just me being far more cautious with the second one or if it has an LSD fitted.
I spent about 8 months doing my homework on buying a Noble. Was in a similar predicament to you regarding the 2.5. Settled for a mint one ownered low miled GT0-3(5 spd). Finding one with a 6-spd and all your criteria methinks you'll be waiting a long long time.
Couldn't find a 2.5 out there that had all mods done. would have gone for mallory green one but I love Nobles in blue.
Best advice. Get one thats been looked after, don't worry about the 'what ifs' and hopefully you'll have trouble free motoring.
Just got in from work, had a look out the window, sun is shining and i hear my baby calling for a jolly around the twisties. Bliss.
Couldn't find a 2.5 out there that had all mods done. would have gone for mallory green one but I love Nobles in blue.
Best advice. Get one thats been looked after, don't worry about the 'what ifs' and hopefully you'll have trouble free motoring.
Just got in from work, had a look out the window, sun is shining and i hear my baby calling for a jolly around the twisties. Bliss.
Edited by Son of Quatto on Thursday 3rd May 13:30
nobleguy said:
To anyone that has driven both the open and limited slip diffs, is there a noticeable difference? The one I crashed was far more 'lively' (it was all over the place at times tbh) than my current one and I don't know if it is just me being far more cautious with the second one or if it has an LSD fitted.
I drove my car with an open diff for the first 3 years of it's life until I upgraded to the 6spd gearbox, and decided to change the diff at the same time.
When I first drove the car, I was horrified at the amount of understear the car had. I had a few 'moments' when I was getting used to it, but once the limits had been explored, and mentally noted I got used to it.
Where I find it the most useful is in the wet. Its much less likely to get out of shape.
I guess the bottom line is, open diff = more precise stearing/more potential to get out of shape, LSD = somewhat less precise stearing/less likely to get out of shape.
--Jools
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