How much could the 3.0 litre make normaly aspirated?

[paulcundy]

Dear All,
title says it all. What do our experts think (Trevor, Graham etc). Anyone got any knowledge of normaly aspirated V6 3.0 litre engiens and how much they should eb able to produce?
Regards
Paul C

[gadgeroonie]

well - it depends on how much money you have and what fuel you want to run it on - think of an F1 engine

probably 850 bhp - but i wouldn't like to hazard the cost of it


the BTCC cars make 300 bhp from 2.0 with throttle bodies and good head design - so is 450 bhp more realistic ?

i know of a 800 bhp 5 litre normally aspirated engine

[chillidog]

Paul YHM.
--
Richard

[Adrian W]

paulcundy said:

Dear All,
title says it all. What do our experts think (Trevor, Graham etc). Anyone got any knowledge of normaly aspirated V6 3.0 litre engiens and how much they should eb able to produce?
Regards
Paul C

Laods, some of the gt1 cars use the Jag version reving to 10000 but the cost a fortune

[techdimensions]

I think 400BHP is probably a posibility. Just getting that much though would be expensive. Look at the new Porsche 997GT3 making what 410-420 HP and that's a good deal more displacement and a highly developed engine. The NA engine would really need truly equal length headers and exhaust which is not as much of a concern on a turbocharged application.
The setup would look something like this i think: High compression pistons with molly coatings and maybe 2 MM more bore, Carrillo rods, gear reduction starter, Tilton as an example (for the high compression), Titanium retainers and race valvesprings, high lift high duration camshafts, polished intake and exhaust ports (no porting-the ports flow well as it is- perhaps slightly larger valves), custom air cleaners and air cleaner housing, custom exhaust headers and exhaust, green top injectors could be used still, just new remapping of the engine with 8000 rpm limit. I think it would be a neat project and have thought about that setup before. Would make a perfect M12 model in the line up and would likely be slightly less expensive if done in production than the std M12GTO. Plus there would be some weight savings which always helps.

[DanH]

techdimensions said:

I think 400BHP is probably a posibility. Just getting that much though would be expensive. Look at the new Porsche 997GT3 making what 410-420 HP and that's a good deal more displacement and a highly developed engine. The NA engine would really need truly equal length headers and exhaust which is not as much of a concern on a turbocharged application.

Yep as you say the GT3 is a 3.6 and a very technical engine. Still with a cam that would be awful on the road and requiring frequent rebuilds I reckon you could get max 380ish bhp out the Noble lump with a big budget (which at 126 bhp a litre is a lot for an NA).

The 3.8 stroked GT3 RSR lemans engines can make 485 bhp on restrictors requiring rebuilds every few races (or 1 lemans!) and revs to 9k.

As to one of those v6s revving to 10k. I doubt that would last 2 laps

[techdimensions]

DanH said:

techdimensions said:

I think 400BHP is probably a posibility. Just getting that much though would be expensive. Look at the new Porsche 997GT3 making what 410-420 HP and that's a good deal more displacement and a highly developed engine. The NA engine would really need truly equal length headers and exhaust which is not as much of a concern on a turbocharged application.

Yep as you say the GT3 is a 3.6 and a very technical engine. Still with a cam that would be awful on the road and requiring frequent rebuilds I reckon you could get max 380ish bhp out the Noble lump with a big budget (which at 126 bhp a litre is a lot for an NA).

The 3.8 stroked GT3 RSR lemans engines can make 485 bhp on restrictors requiring rebuilds every few races (or 1 lemans!) and revs to 9k.

As to one of those v6s revving to 10k. I doubt that would last 2 laps

Well, as far as rebuilds, i don't think that would be the case. Besides,you wouldn't want to spin it up more than 8000 rpms and that would be fine with the race springs and retainers. It would be an interesting project and one i might consider doing. The base engine is obviously supporting huge HP now with our turbo and hardware upgrades. If you run Individual throttlebodies and use the blend feature with a 1000rpm idle it should be very streetable even with agressive cams and those sorts of mods aren't anymore agressive to the service life of the engine than our forced induction setups, likely less so. As far as the GT3RSR engines or even the cup engines, they are squeezing every last ounce of power out of the engines and require rebuilds as per Porsche Motorsports interval every 24 to 30 hrs. The main difference is that that interval is 24-30 RACING hours. I have seen996GT3cup and RSR engines with 40+ racing hours before rebuild and have been ok. Another thought that would be a good feature to add without the turbos would be a drysump system. There is definitly enough room without the turbo plumbing in the way. That frees up HP and increases responsiveness. The Porsches obviously have an internal dry sump pump which really helps overall durability.

[Adrian W]

DanH said:

techdimensions said:

I think 400BHP is probably a posibility. Just getting that much though would be expensive. Look at the new Porsche 997GT3 making what 410-420 HP and that's a good deal more displacement and a highly developed engine. The NA engine would really need truly equal length headers and exhaust which is not as much of a concern on a turbocharged application.

Yep as you say the GT3 is a 3.6 and a very technical engine. Still with a cam that would be awful on the road and requiring frequent rebuilds I reckon you could get max 380ish bhp out the Noble lump with a big budget (which at 126 bhp a litre is a lot for an NA).

The 3.8 stroked GT3 RSR lemans engines can make 485 bhp on restrictors requiring rebuilds every few races (or 1 lemans!) and revs to 9k.

As to one of those v6s revving to 10k. I doubt that would last 2 laps

Dan, I wasnt guessing it's already been done, for GT cars, as i said they run to 10k with a plenum and six throttle bodies.These are proper race engines and cost a fortune.

[DanH]

Adrian W said:

DanH said:

techdimensions said:

I think 400BHP is probably a posibility. Just getting that much though would be expensive. Look at the new Porsche 997GT3 making what 410-420 HP and that's a good deal more displacement and a highly developed engine. The NA engine would really need truly equal length headers and exhaust which is not as much of a concern on a turbocharged application.

Yep as you say the GT3 is a 3.6 and a very technical engine. Still with a cam that would be awful on the road and requiring frequent rebuilds I reckon you could get max 380ish bhp out the Noble lump with a big budget (which at 126 bhp a litre is a lot for an NA).

The 3.8 stroked GT3 RSR lemans engines can make 485 bhp on restrictors requiring rebuilds every few races (or 1 lemans!) and revs to 9k.

As to one of those v6s revving to 10k. I doubt that would last 2 laps

Dan, I wasnt guessing it's already been done, for GT cars, as i said they run to 10k with a plenum and six throttle bodies.These are proper race engines and cost a fortune.

I still can't see one holding together long if they regularly explore the rev band to 10k. Have you got any more info on these engines? Thats a very big rev increase for an engine that normally goes to what, 6.5k?

[Adrian W]

DanH said:

Adrian W said:

DanH said:

techdimensions said:

I think 400BHP is probably a posibility. Just getting that much though would be expensive. Look at the new Porsche 997GT3 making what 410-420 HP and that's a good deal more displacement and a highly developed engine. The NA engine would really need truly equal length headers and exhaust which is not as much of a concern on a turbocharged application.

Yep as you say the GT3 is a 3.6 and a very technical engine. Still with a cam that would be awful on the road and requiring frequent rebuilds I reckon you could get max 380ish bhp out the Noble lump with a big budget (which at 126 bhp a litre is a lot for an NA).

The 3.8 stroked GT3 RSR lemans engines can make 485 bhp on restrictors requiring rebuilds every few races (or 1 lemans!) and revs to 9k.

As to one of those v6s revving to 10k. I doubt that would last 2 laps

Dan, I wasnt guessing it's already been done, for GT cars, as i said they run to 10k with a plenum and six throttle bodies.These are proper race engines and cost a fortune.

I still can't see one holding together long if they regularly explore the rev band to 10k. Have you got any more info on these engines? Thats a very big rev increase for an engine that normally goes to what, 6.5k?

Sorry in a hotel bar in Denmark, will find the details when i get back,

[DanH]

techdimensions said:

DanH said:

techdimensions said:

I think 400BHP is probably a posibility. Just getting that much though would be expensive. Look at the new Porsche 997GT3 making what 410-420 HP and that's a good deal more displacement and a highly developed engine. The NA engine would really need truly equal length headers and exhaust which is not as much of a concern on a turbocharged application.

Yep as you say the GT3 is a 3.6 and a very technical engine. Still with a cam that would be awful on the road and requiring frequent rebuilds I reckon you could get max 380ish bhp out the Noble lump with a big budget (which at 126 bhp a litre is a lot for an NA).

The 3.8 stroked GT3 RSR lemans engines can make 485 bhp on restrictors requiring rebuilds every few races (or 1 lemans!) and revs to 9k.

As to one of those v6s revving to 10k. I doubt that would last 2 laps

Well, as far as rebuilds, i don't think that would be the case. Besides,you wouldn't want to spin it up more than 8000 rpms and that would be fine with the race springs and retainers. It would be an interesting project and one i might consider doing. The base engine is obviously supporting huge HP now with our turbo and hardware upgrades. If you run Individual throttlebodies and use the blend feature with a 1000rpm idle it should be very streetable even with agressive cams and those sorts of mods aren't anymore agressive to the service life of the engine than our forced induction setups, likely less so. As far as the GT3RSR engines or even the cup engines, they are squeezing every last ounce of power out of the engines and require rebuilds as per Porsche Motorsports interval every 24 to 30 hrs. The main difference is that that interval is 24-30 RACING hours. I have seen996GT3cup and RSR engines with 40+ racing hours before rebuild and have been ok. Another thought that would be a good feature to add without the turbos would be a drysump system. There is definitly enough room without the turbo plumbing in the way. That frees up HP and increases responsiveness. The Porsches obviously have an internal dry sump pump which really helps overall durability.

Have I misunderstood, or are you effectively saying you think you can get more bhp/litre out of the ford v6 than a gt3 cup or even rsr engine with a lower rev limit and no more frequent rebuilds than a cup engine? (you did say 400 bhp should be possible)