Track Day Sump

[=Stella Artois=]

Contemplating a track day, and the question arose as to whether it is mandatory for a track day sump to be fitted? My car has the TDS fitted, but I was just wondering what the implications would be if the car were to venture on to the track without it. I appreciate that the modified sump/baffled prevents oil starvation under hard cornering, but is the original that poor that it couldn't handle an outing. Or is the requirement for a TDS based on utopian conditions?
Ta,
Marc

[=Stella Artois=]

After much searching, I'm getting a vague idea, but are there any documented failures from not having a TDS fitted, surely if the sump was that susceptible to starvation, it would be affected on a day to day basis.

[AMG Merc]

If we said there's no point to a TDS would you remove yours then Marc?

[ThatPhilBrettGuy]

Joust had 2 engines go pop before they developed the TDS I believe.

[=Stella Artois=]

@ AMG - Hehe nooope. Just getting my head around, if it was a poor design, would spirited road driving put the car at risk too.

@ TPBG - Oooh, not good, costly. Ouch.

[YellowShed]

The standard sump was perfectly good for the engine as developed by Ford. However, Lee's chassis was so much better than the Mondeo that the limitations of the sump became apparent when Nobles were being tracked - they could sustain higher g than the standard Ford. Consequently, for track use where long sweeping corners can lead to starvation, more oil was required. Hence the track-day sump. You could drive slower round the corners and not need a track-day sump, but then there wouldn't be much point in that, I don't suppose.....

YellowShed

[=Stella Artois=]

Cheers T, glad its been done already then. Going slow on a track....wash your mouth out!

[MrCredit]

YellowShed said:

The standard sump was perfectly good for the engine as developed by Ford. However, Lee's chassis was so much better than the Mondeo that the limitations of the sump became apparent when Nobles were being tracked - they could sustain higher g than the standard Ford. Consequently, for track use where long sweeping corners can lead to starvation, more oil was required. Hence the track-day sump. You could drive slower round the corners and not need a track-day sump, but then there wouldn't be much point in that, I don't suppose.....

YellowShed

Mondeo?!?! MONDEO?!?!!! Don't say that!!!! I thought the engine was sourced from a Maverick?
Now I have to convince all my mates, yet again, that I don't drive a Mondeo!!!

[Gadgeroonie]

maverick and mondeo share the same block

the crankcase covers aircon/alternator side are from the maverick

the inlet is maverick also

[andygtt]

lets just agree its a ford

[Adrian W]

Gadgeroonie said:

maverick and mondeo share the same block

the crankcase covers aircon/alternator side are from the maverick

the inlet is maverick also

If your being picky I'm pretty sure its from an Explorer.

[AMG Merc]

Adrian W said:

Gadgeroonie said:

maverick and mondeo share the same block

the crankcase covers aircon/alternator side are from the maverick

the inlet is maverick also

If your being picky I'm pretty sure its from an Explorer.

Racking my brains I recall three US models sharing our block - Maverick, US Jaguar and another (a Volvo perhaps?) - corrections accepted.

[TuxMan]

Makes you wonder why if the sump was not up to the job they did noy fit them as standard !!!! now they just charge a stupid ripoff amount of money for them !!!!


Good way to make money ...build a car suitable for both road and track then tell owners you cannot use it on the track until you spend best part of £800 on a new sump









p.s sorry had my rant now feel much better !!!

[caccobra]

TuxMan said:

Makes you wonder why if the sump was not up to the job they did noy fit them as standard !!!! now they just charge a stupid ripoff amount of money for them !!!!


Good way to make money ...build a car suitable for both road and track then tell owners you cannot use it on the track until you spend best part of £800 on a new sump

p.s sorry had my rant now feel much better !!!

Once Noble realized they were needed for track use they bacame an option when ordering. They were standard equipment only on the M400. Beginning in mid 2004, the 3R was also fitted with a removable frame section beneath the pan to make it much easier to add a track pan or to drop the pan for engine inspection without raising the engine. This removable section is also on all M400's. Most 3R's in the US were ordered with the optional track pan so there are very few US cars that do not have it.

[andygtt]

TuxMan said:

Makes you wonder why if the sump was not up to the job they did noy fit them as standard !!!! now they just charge a stupid ripoff amount of money for them !!!!

Good way to make money ...build a car suitable for both road and track then tell owners you cannot use it on the track until you spend best part of £800 on a new sump

p.s sorry had my rant now feel much better !!!

To be fair few road cars are recomended to be used on track without modifcations!.. how many mods over std do you have to do to an Ultima to reliably track it?

Im still wanting to get a track day sump for mine, do you have pics of the 'mods'? for £800 Id be considering fitting a dry sump rather than just a modded wet one.

[Adrian W]

andygtt said:

TuxMan said:

Makes you wonder why if the sump was not up to the job they did noy fit them as standard !!!! now they just charge a stupid ripoff amount of money for them !!!!

Good way to make money ...build a car suitable for both road and track then tell owners you cannot use it on the track until you spend best part of £800 on a new sump

p.s sorry had my rant now feel much better !!!

To be fair few road cars are recomended to be used on track without modifcations!.. how many mods over std do you have to do to an Ultima to reliably track it?

Im still wanting to get a track day sump for mine, do you have pics of the 'mods'? for £800 Id be considering fitting a dry sump rather than just a modded wet one.

Unfortunatly it would take major changes to the chassis to get a dry sump in.

[Adrian W]

AMG Merc said:

Adrian W said:

Gadgeroonie said:

maverick and mondeo share the same block

the crankcase covers aircon/alternator side are from the maverick

the inlet is maverick also

If your being picky I'm pretty sure its from an Explorer.

Racking my brains I recall three US models sharing our block - Maverick, US Jaguar and another (a Volvo perhaps?) - corrections accepted.

I can name a lot more cars than that using the Mazda block, it is all the other bits that matter, as i said Explorer!

Now if we had the Jag engine we would have far better heads and variable valve timing.

[TuxMan]

yep looked at dry sumping but its the pump location thats the issue , not enough room between chasis rails !! looked at a few other options but in the end the sump is the only sensible option .

[joust]

ThatPhilBrettGuy said:

Joust had 2 engines go pop before they developed the TDS I believe.

To be fair only 1. The other two were for unrelated issues....

J

[NobleGuy]

joust said:

...The other two....