Accurate water temp at last!
Discussion
PeterGuk fitted me an aftermarket water temp sender to the new gauges which gives a true reading and bypasses that silly ECU program that holds the needle at 90 deg on the later models.
So the water temp got up to 100deg and the fans kick in bang on the line.
Just a few questions though, at what temp is the car considered to be overheating? I know it depends on how much the system is pressurized, on the noble is it 110deg before the water starts to boil? or more?
It has not gone over 100 deg since the new sender was fitted, but that is driving in England, i have ordered some water wetter, how much will this increase the boiling point by? I Have heard 10eg more, so just after some rough figures, will that mean i can run the car at 120 deg without overheating? or does the water wetter just transfer heat better meaning there is less chance of temperatues rising?
I am just going to run the car on pure water with water wetter in Cyprus, may just add a cup of antifreeze for safety but chances are it will never get cold enough in Cyprus to be required.
So the water temp got up to 100deg and the fans kick in bang on the line.
Just a few questions though, at what temp is the car considered to be overheating? I know it depends on how much the system is pressurized, on the noble is it 110deg before the water starts to boil? or more?
It has not gone over 100 deg since the new sender was fitted, but that is driving in England, i have ordered some water wetter, how much will this increase the boiling point by? I Have heard 10eg more, so just after some rough figures, will that mean i can run the car at 120 deg without overheating? or does the water wetter just transfer heat better meaning there is less chance of temperatues rising?
I am just going to run the car on pure water with water wetter in Cyprus, may just add a cup of antifreeze for safety but chances are it will never get cold enough in Cyprus to be required.
I would run at least 1/3 antifreeze and 2/3 water. Modern antifreeze is essential to keeping the water pump in good operating condition, and for controlling corrosion in general. It also raises the boiling point of the mixture while it lowers the freezing point. Water wetter can do none of that.
JLSELAN said:
I would run at least 1/3 antifreeze and 2/3 water. Modern antifreeze is essential to keeping the water pump in good operating condition, and for controlling corrosion in general. It also raises the boiling point of the mixture while it lowers the freezing point. Water wetter can do none of that.
I thought it was the opposite, i thought antifreeze lowered the boiling point, thats why racing cars run on high pressure pure water system and flush regular, water wetter advertises itself as anti corrosive and helps clean the water pump.I'm not saying your wrong, i appeciate the advice, i would just like to get something definitive, so i know which way to go,I have an information source who really knows his stuff and he told me the opposite to what you said, but i could have misunderstood.
http://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p6049/RED-LINE-W...
My experience is consistent with this article:
http://autorepair.about.com/library/glossary/bldef...
Without doubt, an antifreeze mixture will have a higher boiling point than straight water.
The only reason I am aware of for not running antifreeze in a dedicated race car is that many organizations have rules against it since an antifreeze/water mixture is very slippery and is difficult to clean up after a spill (e.g., after an on-track shunt).
http://autorepair.about.com/library/glossary/bldef...
Without doubt, an antifreeze mixture will have a higher boiling point than straight water.
The only reason I am aware of for not running antifreeze in a dedicated race car is that many organizations have rules against it since an antifreeze/water mixture is very slippery and is difficult to clean up after a spill (e.g., after an on-track shunt).
Just from what I recall from memory I believe that water wetter works by improving the heat transfer properties of the coolant. I've used it before but it's extremely difficult to say exactly how effective it actually is. Similarly I have seen no measurable/quantifiable proof that it does any harm. On that basis, give it a whirl.
The cooling system on my 3R is under scrutiny at the moment. Some of the Aluminium joining pipes on my 3R are exhibiting what we would class as extreme/excessive levels of cavitation damage.
Particularly where the hoses overlap the joining pipes excessively. I suspect coolant is getting trapped up those dead ends (if that makes sense) then boiling and eating away the aluminium. I have photo's at work if anyone wants to see them at all?
Unable to determine at this point if thats down to the overlap trapping coolant and allowing it to boil, or due to incorrect A/F levels?
Mike.
The cooling system on my 3R is under scrutiny at the moment. Some of the Aluminium joining pipes on my 3R are exhibiting what we would class as extreme/excessive levels of cavitation damage.
Particularly where the hoses overlap the joining pipes excessively. I suspect coolant is getting trapped up those dead ends (if that makes sense) then boiling and eating away the aluminium. I have photo's at work if anyone wants to see them at all?
Unable to determine at this point if thats down to the overlap trapping coolant and allowing it to boil, or due to incorrect A/F levels?
Mike.
Edited by Mike Tuckwood on Saturday 24th October 22:59
I had all my pipes off recently did not have this same problem you have experienced, all the aluminium pipe end where they overlap looked/seemed completely normal, i may need closer inspection next time a get a chance.
But what is the bioling point of normal water with the pressurized system on the Noble, is the pressure cap 10psi or something? Just wondered how much that pressure increases the boiling point.
Then 1/3 A/F mix will increase boiling point further and hopefully the 2/3 water with water wetter will increase boiling point even further.
I suppose i will find out when i get back over there, but i was just after a yard stick for comparison, as i do not know what temp is considered overheating, is it only considered overheating if the water reaches boiling point?
If this is the case then if i can raise boiling point to 120deg then, i can run at 110deg safely?
i really need advice on this one.
But what is the bioling point of normal water with the pressurized system on the Noble, is the pressure cap 10psi or something? Just wondered how much that pressure increases the boiling point.
Then 1/3 A/F mix will increase boiling point further and hopefully the 2/3 water with water wetter will increase boiling point even further.
I suppose i will find out when i get back over there, but i was just after a yard stick for comparison, as i do not know what temp is considered overheating, is it only considered overheating if the water reaches boiling point?
If this is the case then if i can raise boiling point to 120deg then, i can run at 110deg safely?
i really need advice on this one.
Last time i was over we did a diagnotics whilst driving with the 1.3 software, the laptop was showing 98 deg whilst driving agressively in 42deg summer temperatures, i thought this was high until i found out the fans dont even kick in until 100degish, but taht was running on Mobil 1 high temp coolant, which i suppose must have similar additives to water wetter.
So id did hold up well really, but after that i added a front number plate and temps started creeping up a fwe deg then the gauge started jumping crazy up to 120deg and sh*t, that's why i wanted the real temp reading to bypass the ECU program, so i can see just how much it is creeping above 100deg.
So id did hold up well really, but after that i added a front number plate and temps started creeping up a fwe deg then the gauge started jumping crazy up to 120deg and sh*t, that's why i wanted the real temp reading to bypass the ECU program, so i can see just how much it is creeping above 100deg.
Gadgeroonie said:
Excellent independent road testing, thanks for the info.so i can expect water wetter to lower temps by up to 13deg under heavy driving, and a minimum of 5 deg, and that was without any antifreeze, just water+water wetter.
It seeems they were saying that anitfreeze +water becomes very inefficient under high temp conditions and loses its ability to transfer heat, pretty much ties in with what PeterGuk told me.
Shame they did not do a test with 1/3 antifreeze + 2/3 water + water wetter, i wonder if that would lower water temps even more, or have a negative effect in high temperature conditions?
I know one thing for certain removing the front number plate lowers water temps by 5 deg in high temp conditions
that thing blocks a lot a of air flow into the radiator, and pushes it over or under the car, i bet it is blocking 30% of the airflow which is needed for cooling the radiator, that is definately coming back off when i get to Cyprus, they are not too fussy about front number plates in Cyprus.I have pressure checked my system and it si stable, no leaks, but i was wondering what the weak link is on the pressure system , is it the cap or the pipes?
Urbalizer said:
I had all my pipes off recently did not have this same problem you have experienced, all the aluminium pipe end where they overlap looked/seemed completely normal, i may need closer inspection next time a get a chance.
But what is the bioling point of normal water with the pressurized system on the Noble, is the pressure cap 10psi or something? Just wondered how much that pressure increases the boiling point.
Then 1/3 A/F mix will increase boiling point further and hopefully the 2/3 water with water wetter will increase boiling point even further.
I suppose i will find out when i get back over there, but i was just after a yard stick for comparison, as i do not know what temp is considered overheating, is it only considered overheating if the water reaches boiling point?
If this is the case then if i can raise boiling point to 120deg then, i can run at 110deg safely?
i really need advice on this one.
Here is a simple pressure/boiling point calculator to plug and play with:But what is the bioling point of normal water with the pressurized system on the Noble, is the pressure cap 10psi or something? Just wondered how much that pressure increases the boiling point.
Then 1/3 A/F mix will increase boiling point further and hopefully the 2/3 water with water wetter will increase boiling point even further.
I suppose i will find out when i get back over there, but i was just after a yard stick for comparison, as i do not know what temp is considered overheating, is it only considered overheating if the water reaches boiling point?
If this is the case then if i can raise boiling point to 120deg then, i can run at 110deg safely?
i really need advice on this one.
http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/wrzenie.htm...
For example, choosing water as the material of interest which boils at 100 degrees C at one atmosphere, pressurizing to 1.5 atmospheres (about 22 PSI) raises the boiling point to 111 degrees C.
The standard pressure cap for a Noble should hold 16-18 PSI (I upgraded to a Hoover system and have mine set to 20 PSI with no problems).
Just been reading some more info, seems antifreeze can foam under high temp conditions which makes it lose its ability to transfer heat, so the hotter you run the less efficient the antifreeze becomes as a coolant. water wetter reduces the surface tension of water, making it stay in contact with metals better, therefore transfering heat better under high temp conditions, also cleans the water pump and has an anti corrive agent.
Seems PeterGuk was right again, water + water wetter + cup full of antifreeze, seems to be the best combination for high temp conditions, the less antifreeze you use the less foaming will occur at high temp allowing heat to transfer better, apparantly antifreeze only transfers heat in a liquid form when it starts to foam it actually is less effective at transfering heat than just pure water.
Seems unless you are running in high temp conditions you will not see any benefits of water wetter, but the hotter it gets the better it works, which is the opposite to antifreeze which becomes less effective the hotter it gets, so antifreeze would actually push temperatures up when it loses its ability to transfer heat. Learn something new everyday
Seems PeterGuk was right again, water + water wetter + cup full of antifreeze, seems to be the best combination for high temp conditions, the less antifreeze you use the less foaming will occur at high temp allowing heat to transfer better, apparantly antifreeze only transfers heat in a liquid form when it starts to foam it actually is less effective at transfering heat than just pure water.
Seems unless you are running in high temp conditions you will not see any benefits of water wetter, but the hotter it gets the better it works, which is the opposite to antifreeze which becomes less effective the hotter it gets, so antifreeze would actually push temperatures up when it loses its ability to transfer heat. Learn something new everyday
Thanks for the additiona info Joel, i did a rough calculation at 18psi, seems that normal water alone would boil at roughly 109deg.
Found this article also, the less glycol, in the system the more effective water wetter is at reducing cylinder head/ water temps, for every 1% extra glycol added, increased cylinder head temps by 0.5deg, they tested 50% water/50% glycol + water wetter and cylinder head temps were recorded 15deg higher, than just water + water wetter.
But that was still 15deg lower than 50/50 water/glycol mix.
So it seems the best mixture for lowering water temps and cylinder head temps is water+water wetter. No antifreeze
I will still add a cup of antifreeze though to raise the boiling point of water, seems like the perfect combination.
Obviously this can not be done in the UK though because of the low temps, unless you empty the coolant system after every time you race.
http://www.dual-star.com/index2/Service/waterwette...
Found this article also, the less glycol, in the system the more effective water wetter is at reducing cylinder head/ water temps, for every 1% extra glycol added, increased cylinder head temps by 0.5deg, they tested 50% water/50% glycol + water wetter and cylinder head temps were recorded 15deg higher, than just water + water wetter.
But that was still 15deg lower than 50/50 water/glycol mix.
So it seems the best mixture for lowering water temps and cylinder head temps is water+water wetter. No antifreeze
I will still add a cup of antifreeze though to raise the boiling point of water, seems like the perfect combination.
Obviously this can not be done in the UK though because of the low temps, unless you empty the coolant system after every time you race.
http://www.dual-star.com/index2/Service/waterwette...
Hi Chris , on the ultima i ran both antifreeze and water wetter with good results , i do think your fans are coming in a bit late though 100c is quite high on the Ultima i started at 95 but had a manual switch that i could turn on when in traffic always helped keep temps down . also have you got a engine oil cooler ?? as this is supposed to help with water temps as well !!
TuxMan said:
Hi Chris , on the ultima i ran both antifreeze and water wetter with good results , i do think your fans are coming in a bit late though 100c is quite high on the Ultima i started at 95 but had a manual switch that i could turn on when in traffic always helped keep temps down . also have you got a engine oil cooler ?? as this is supposed to help with water temps as well !!
Yes i said about 100 before but that was not a digital reading, just a needle pointing at a line, the fans kick in at 98deg which is exactly what they are supposed to kick in at, this has been confirmed by the person that developed the ECU map.I have a late model so it has a front mounted oil cooler, the system has been pressure checked, but like i say i am running in a very hot climate, i only thought i had a problem with heat due to that silly ECU program they put on the later models to hold the needle at 90deg, giving a false reading, so when the temp went above 100 the needle would fly round to 120deg, but everytime we stopped and checked the coolant system, the water was not at boiling point, that's why i wanted the real reading so i can monitor it properly.
I think it is pretty conclusive that independant testing proves the water wetter works very well at keeping water and cylinder head temps down which will do wonders for the performance in a hot climate.
The devil said:
This all seems to be a bit high tech, will it really make any difference that is noticable?
Won't make much difference unless you are running in a hot climate, the hotter the conditions the more effective water wetter is at transfering heat to metals, therefore dispersing the heat much more rapidly, therefore keeping water and cylinder head temps much lower than just having a mixture of Antifreeze/water.So it will probably not be noticeable to you in the UK, but in Cyprus it will make a massive difference.
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