Setting up the suspension/ride/camber etc..
Discussion
Need some advice please.
1. What would you advise for setting the springs, on the original springs roughly how far down from the top of the threads (to the top) of the top nut that the C sopanner goes on, also what have people set the eibach springs height at?
2. What effect does it have on the car the more you compress the spring, i assume it makes suspension harder? but does it also effect ride height? My mechanic said the more you compress the spring the lower the ride height will be, is this correct?
3. Do i need to get my tracking set up by laser? I assume it is adjusted by rotating the steering tie rods?
4. Negative camber, is this solely set by the wishbones? i.e. position of top and bottom ball joints.
5. The replacement front upright i got was off an M400 but the other front upright is original for a 3R, on the M400 upright the bottom ball joint shank seems to go much further into the upright before it binds, is this normal? It doesnt appear to require a bush and all the top ball joint shanks seem to extend in to the same depth. The bottom ball joint on the side which is original 3R is definately rock solid tight but i barely have a few threads sticking out above the nut.
Will any of this effect the setup or handling? I suppose the wisbones will be at differing angles from one side to the other due to this ball joint issue.
6. My mechanic has tightened up all the bolts to the wishbone bushes, but i was advised by somebody else not to tighten them until the wishbones were in the natural position with the weight of the car, will this be a problem?
7. Setting up the wheels, do they need to be set straight and parralel, or do they need to be toed in or out slightly?
I know nothing about how to set up a car with regards to these points, but i assume it is very important to how the car handles, i was hoping my mechanic would naturally know what to do but i guess fine tuning sports car handling and ride is not his thing.
1. What would you advise for setting the springs, on the original springs roughly how far down from the top of the threads (to the top) of the top nut that the C sopanner goes on, also what have people set the eibach springs height at?
2. What effect does it have on the car the more you compress the spring, i assume it makes suspension harder? but does it also effect ride height? My mechanic said the more you compress the spring the lower the ride height will be, is this correct?
3. Do i need to get my tracking set up by laser? I assume it is adjusted by rotating the steering tie rods?
4. Negative camber, is this solely set by the wishbones? i.e. position of top and bottom ball joints.
5. The replacement front upright i got was off an M400 but the other front upright is original for a 3R, on the M400 upright the bottom ball joint shank seems to go much further into the upright before it binds, is this normal? It doesnt appear to require a bush and all the top ball joint shanks seem to extend in to the same depth. The bottom ball joint on the side which is original 3R is definately rock solid tight but i barely have a few threads sticking out above the nut.
Will any of this effect the setup or handling? I suppose the wisbones will be at differing angles from one side to the other due to this ball joint issue.
6. My mechanic has tightened up all the bolts to the wishbone bushes, but i was advised by somebody else not to tighten them until the wishbones were in the natural position with the weight of the car, will this be a problem?
7. Setting up the wheels, do they need to be set straight and parralel, or do they need to be toed in or out slightly?
I know nothing about how to set up a car with regards to these points, but i assume it is very important to how the car handles, i was hoping my mechanic would naturally know what to do but i guess fine tuning sports car handling and ride is not his thing.
i'm not an expert but i will try my best
1. This is how you set the rise height - using different lengths will adjust the distribution of weight and is called corner weighting - make sure its not too low so you can not get over a speed bump !
2. adjusting them unevenly can make one spring take more of the weight of the car
3. tracking is done by adjuting the tie rods - can be done by laser or mirrors etc
4. camber is not adjustable - you need shim blocks to move the top/bottom of wishbone in/out
5. if the suspension is not the same length now - then you may have a problem
6. good advice - set ride height, then tighten up wishbones
7. toe in/out and camber will affect how the car handles - toe in at will make more stable at speed, toe out will make the car turn in better - i believe the car toe's out at the rear
my advice is to get it set up by a professional, you can't afford to get it wrong with a car like the Noble !
1. This is how you set the rise height - using different lengths will adjust the distribution of weight and is called corner weighting - make sure its not too low so you can not get over a speed bump !
2. adjusting them unevenly can make one spring take more of the weight of the car
3. tracking is done by adjuting the tie rods - can be done by laser or mirrors etc
4. camber is not adjustable - you need shim blocks to move the top/bottom of wishbone in/out
5. if the suspension is not the same length now - then you may have a problem
6. good advice - set ride height, then tighten up wishbones
7. toe in/out and camber will affect how the car handles - toe in at will make more stable at speed, toe out will make the car turn in better - i believe the car toe's out at the rear
my advice is to get it set up by a professional, you can't afford to get it wrong with a car like the Noble !
Cheers for the advice Mike.
on point 5, the suspension arms are indentical for both sides, it is just the bottom ball joints are not seating ther same within the tapered hole in the upright from one side to the other, i am wondering what effect this will have on the car.
I am getting a guy to come with a laser setup to do the tracking etc.. he comes recommended by my friend at the ferrari garage, i dont know whether i will need to give him information to work to or whether with experience he will naturally know what to do to set the car up for good handling.
So it appears my mechanic did it wrong by tightening the bolts to the wishbone bushes before setting the ride height
but i suppose all we have to do is break the nuts and then re tighten? If we do not is there a chance to damage the bushes?
We made sure the springs were compressed the same on each axle, but in my opinion it seems he was edging towards lowering the ride height from what it was originally, you ae right about speed bumps and is something that needs to be taken into consideration. i just remembered that i have an old front and rear shock with spring still attached in the shed, i will measure the ride height from them, but i have the new eibach springs on the front, so i'm still not sure what to set these to, the springs are a lot shorter than the factory fitted ones to start with.
on point 5, the suspension arms are indentical for both sides, it is just the bottom ball joints are not seating ther same within the tapered hole in the upright from one side to the other, i am wondering what effect this will have on the car.
I am getting a guy to come with a laser setup to do the tracking etc.. he comes recommended by my friend at the ferrari garage, i dont know whether i will need to give him information to work to or whether with experience he will naturally know what to do to set the car up for good handling.
So it appears my mechanic did it wrong by tightening the bolts to the wishbone bushes before setting the ride height
but i suppose all we have to do is break the nuts and then re tighten? If we do not is there a chance to damage the bushes?We made sure the springs were compressed the same on each axle, but in my opinion it seems he was edging towards lowering the ride height from what it was originally, you ae right about speed bumps and is something that needs to be taken into consideration. i just remembered that i have an old front and rear shock with spring still attached in the shed, i will measure the ride height from them, but i have the new eibach springs on the front, so i'm still not sure what to set these to, the springs are a lot shorter than the factory fitted ones to start with.
Regarding shimming the wishbones, how do you do that? They just connect with a bolt to the chassis and have a ball joint on the other end, i can not think of a way to adjust them at all?
I have not checked the negative camber yet, but if it is set by the wishbones then i assume if i have repaired the chassis correctly which i am pretty sure is within +-2mm tolerance, then i assume this means the camber should already be set by the length of the wishbones?
I have not checked the negative camber yet, but if it is set by the wishbones then i assume if i have repaired the chassis correctly which i am pretty sure is within +-2mm tolerance, then i assume this means the camber should already be set by the length of the wishbones?
Edited by R0162 on Thursday 18th November 19:57
You would normally set the spring seats by turning the `C` spanner nuts to give a particular ride height. The factory ride heights are 133mm at the front and 140mm at the rear. This is normally measured with the car on a perfectly flat level surface and is measured from the ground to the underside of the front and rear ends of the sills. The car should therefore have a slight nose down attitude. (Corner weighting means putting weighing scales - designed for the purpose - under each wheel and adjusting the springs so there is a set/same weight on each wheel. On a racing car the intention would be to have the same weight reading left and right to give even grip side to side - obviously front to rear would usually be different because of the very different weight distribution).
If you have shorter springs then I`d be pretty sure they are a higher rating so the load to give a set wheel deflection would be higher. This means the ride will be harder.... Obviously the spring seat `nuts` need to tightened enough to keep the springs located. Then if you wind the nut down onto the top of the spring the ride height is raised and vice versa.
The car needs to be set up accurately both front and rear for wheel aligment. Normally this is done using a laser system and a suitably trained operator. The rear suspension has 2 - 3mm toe in and front either 1mm or 2mm toe out depending on whether it is an early car or a later one. The rack position was changed on later cars. Check the chassis number with the factory to see which value applies to your car.
Caster and camber is not adjustable. You could change the camber by fitting shims between the suspension uprights and the ball joint blocks - I think some racing versions have this as a means of adjusting the suspension camber to change the turn in characteristics.
I`m not sure what the differences are between a 3R and an M400 upright - I`d check with the factory as it could be significant...
If you have shorter springs then I`d be pretty sure they are a higher rating so the load to give a set wheel deflection would be higher. This means the ride will be harder.... Obviously the spring seat `nuts` need to tightened enough to keep the springs located. Then if you wind the nut down onto the top of the spring the ride height is raised and vice versa.
The car needs to be set up accurately both front and rear for wheel aligment. Normally this is done using a laser system and a suitably trained operator. The rear suspension has 2 - 3mm toe in and front either 1mm or 2mm toe out depending on whether it is an early car or a later one. The rack position was changed on later cars. Check the chassis number with the factory to see which value applies to your car.
Caster and camber is not adjustable. You could change the camber by fitting shims between the suspension uprights and the ball joint blocks - I think some racing versions have this as a means of adjusting the suspension camber to change the turn in characteristics.
I`m not sure what the differences are between a 3R and an M400 upright - I`d check with the factory as it could be significant...
hi urb a good guide i was given for ride height was to put the car on a flat base ie 4 post lift and measure 5 inch to the floor from the end of the out rigger infront of the front wheel and 5 and a quater inches from the chassi frame infront of the rear iff using m400 springs and dampers this equates to 36.5 mm between adjustment locking collars front and rear iff tracking car close collar gap by 9 mm this will lower all car evenly by 1 and a half inch but will soften ride hence need higher poundage springs when tightening spring will make ride firmer but lift height of car front tracking 1 to 2 mm each wheel rear. .5 to 1mm each wheel all toe in frh 97 to 105 /rrh 100 to 115 these were settings ive found from when racing really stable but only any good if no road humps hope this helps
Thanks for that info Bob, my car is a 3R Nov 2003, i also found that the rear bottom wishbones were different on the M400, they do not have a bottom ball joint, just a bush and a bolt going through to the upright, the upright was the same but it had a fabricated sleeve to make the hole smaller to accept a bolt.
It may just be that the front M400 upright needs a sleeve to accept the ball joint, so the shank does not protrude so far into the upright, then at least both sides will be the same.
I think i may speak to Dave at jetstream.
It may just be that the front M400 upright needs a sleeve to accept the ball joint, so the shank does not protrude so far into the upright, then at least both sides will be the same.
I think i may speak to Dave at jetstream.
Cheers for the info Paul, i dont fully understand it all but i will slowly try to decipher with some research on the internet. Cheers 
So if i'm reading this right regarding ride height, the more you compress the springs the more the ride height is raised.
So if i'm reading this right regarding ride height, the more you compress the springs the more the ride height is raised.
Edited by R0162 on Thursday 18th November 21:27
Ye should be back over next week all going well, just for a couple of days though.
I managed to get the ride height set, but there is still a problem with one of the front bottom ball joints, not sure which side is wrong at the moment. i have checked many different dimensions and there is 6mm difference from one side to the other, it may be something simple like the washer is turned to wrong way up or something, i will have to make further investigation, at the moment this is affecting the angle of the bottom wishbones.
For the eibach springs, 98mm from centre of hole in top of shock to top of top C spanner nut on the shock, they do not require a lot of pre compression. The original springs are 230mm long and the new eibach and 200mm long. The same dim is 83mm for the raer of the car but this dim is for setting the ride height on the original springs.
I managed to get the ride height set, but there is still a problem with one of the front bottom ball joints, not sure which side is wrong at the moment. i have checked many different dimensions and there is 6mm difference from one side to the other, it may be something simple like the washer is turned to wrong way up or something, i will have to make further investigation, at the moment this is affecting the angle of the bottom wishbones.
For the eibach springs, 98mm from centre of hole in top of shock to top of top C spanner nut on the shock, they do not require a lot of pre compression. The original springs are 230mm long and the new eibach and 200mm long. The same dim is 83mm for the raer of the car but this dim is for setting the ride height on the original springs.
Here are some pics of the front bottom ball joints.
Anybody got an ideas? I measured from top of wisbone local to ball joint to underside of upright, the side that has original ball joint is 32mm the side with new ball joint is 26mm, i also measured between top and bottom wishbones and the same 6mm discrepancy is there, also the shank and threads on the new ball joint has exactly 6mm more thread sticking up past the nut.
Both are pressed in and seated properly up to the shoulder on the wishbone and are flush with circlips underneath, both are also seated properly in the holes in the upright and are fully tightened, both also have the correct washers on the inside of the upright where the ball joint shank comes through.
Anybody got an ideas? I measured from top of wisbone local to ball joint to underside of upright, the side that has original ball joint is 32mm the side with new ball joint is 26mm, i also measured between top and bottom wishbones and the same 6mm discrepancy is there, also the shank and threads on the new ball joint has exactly 6mm more thread sticking up past the nut.
Both are pressed in and seated properly up to the shoulder on the wishbone and are flush with circlips underneath, both are also seated properly in the holes in the upright and are fully tightened, both also have the correct washers on the inside of the upright where the ball joint shank comes through.
cheers Tux, have the measured the difference from underside of upright to top of wishbone local to ball joint? If i had put new bottom ball joints on both sides i would not have noticed this 6mm discrepancy, the new ball joint appears to changing the angle of the bottom wishbone slightly.
I am stumped on this one, they are pressed in correctly, tightened up correctly, i can only think that the new ball joints is sliightly different somehow to the old one, or that the new upright i have got has a slightly bigger hole, i suppose if i try a new bottom ball joint in the other side aswell i will see if that makes both sides the same, if it does then that means that the new ball joints change the angle of the bottom wish bone, which Noble advised me is not good.
I am stumped on this one, they are pressed in correctly, tightened up correctly, i can only think that the new ball joints is sliightly different somehow to the old one, or that the new upright i have got has a slightly bigger hole, i suppose if i try a new bottom ball joint in the other side aswell i will see if that makes both sides the same, if it does then that means that the new ball joints change the angle of the bottom wish bone, which Noble advised me is not good.
The original ball joint on mine measures roughly 32mm which would tie in with what you got on the new ball joint, i got 26mm with the new one which would suggest that it is the upright, when i questioned Noble they considered it as an issue and said it was out of acceptable tolerance and needed further investigation. They gave me a tolerance of +-2mm, I doubt they met those tolerances when making the car though, as i bought 2 sets of wishbones and found a difference of 3mm between them, luckily one set fit between my existing support tabs on the chassis perfect. I will have to investigate further because there is no reason i should not be achieving 30mm as you did with the new ball joint, which would keep the wishbones within the stipulated +-2mm tolerance.
The thing is i fixed the chassis very accurately to within +- 2mm and i will be damned if have gone to all that trouble just to lose the tolerance on a ball joint not fitting into an upright correctly
The thing is i fixed the chassis very accurately to within +- 2mm and i will be damned if have gone to all that trouble just to lose the tolerance on a ball joint not fitting into an upright correctly
Gassing Station | Noble | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff