Discussion
I got my car on the rolling road today and it made 379 rwhp at 1.1bar on the 3rd run, on the 1st run is made 400rwhp but intake temps were creeping on each run as you would expect in real life.
The car was running a bit rich from 5000rpm, AFR was dropping to around 10, so we leaned out the AFR to around 11.5 put the boost up to 1.2 and achieved another 44rwhp whilst still keeping the map safe, so the end result was 424rwhp on the 3rd run, i'm not sure if that is good or not, i do not know how that relates to bhp at the clutch but it feels pretty fast.
I think the power is realistic, the humidity was 36%, and we only put a fan blowing ambient air to the intercooler, air intake temps were quite high and reached 60deg after a few runs, which showed power dropping around 20rwhp from the first power run.
The graph below is from the last power run when the air intake temps were highest with ambient temps at 25deg.
The above figures are DIN, the figures were a bit lower when coverted EEC, my tuner said EEC is the most up to date measurement and that is what i based the 424rwhp, i have certainly learned a lot today, especially by how much intake temps affect the power, but i needed to know what my real everyday useable power was, so realistic intake temps were a must.
One thing my tuner did spot is that the new NGK plugs were not doing there job very well and they were missing a little at high rpm, he spotted this by listening to the engine with headphones on while tuning, so i really need to find some good alternatives for the hot climate, can anybody recommend some cold plugs?
The car was running a bit rich from 5000rpm, AFR was dropping to around 10, so we leaned out the AFR to around 11.5 put the boost up to 1.2 and achieved another 44rwhp whilst still keeping the map safe, so the end result was 424rwhp on the 3rd run, i'm not sure if that is good or not, i do not know how that relates to bhp at the clutch but it feels pretty fast.
I think the power is realistic, the humidity was 36%, and we only put a fan blowing ambient air to the intercooler, air intake temps were quite high and reached 60deg after a few runs, which showed power dropping around 20rwhp from the first power run.
The graph below is from the last power run when the air intake temps were highest with ambient temps at 25deg.
The above figures are DIN, the figures were a bit lower when coverted EEC, my tuner said EEC is the most up to date measurement and that is what i based the 424rwhp, i have certainly learned a lot today, especially by how much intake temps affect the power, but i needed to know what my real everyday useable power was, so realistic intake temps were a must.
One thing my tuner did spot is that the new NGK plugs were not doing there job very well and they were missing a little at high rpm, he spotted this by listening to the engine with headphones on while tuning, so i really need to find some good alternatives for the hot climate, can anybody recommend some cold plugs?
Edited by R0162 on Saturday 2nd April 17:40
Are you sure Mike? This is a 2010 model Dynojet which has only been running a few days and dont forget this has not been converted, are you sure you dont get 15% difference after the conversion?
I can not see T28's @ 1.2 bar producing 420 @ the flywheel.
The original map produces 470- 500bhp @ the flywheel on Track and road Dyno, this same map produced 400rwhp on the Dynojet on the first run and 380rwhp on the 3rd run.
If "rwhp on a Dynojet" and "flywheel HP" on T&R were the same, then the rwhp would have shown 490 on the first run on the Dynojet, and of course the Dynojet was showing much much lower.
I can not see T28's @ 1.2 bar producing 420 @ the flywheel.
The original map produces 470- 500bhp @ the flywheel on Track and road Dyno, this same map produced 400rwhp on the Dynojet on the first run and 380rwhp on the 3rd run.
If "rwhp on a Dynojet" and "flywheel HP" on T&R were the same, then the rwhp would have shown 490 on the first run on the Dynojet, and of course the Dynojet was showing much much lower.
R0162 said:
Are you sure Mike? This is a 2010 model Dynojet which has only been running a few days and dont forget this has not been converted, are you sure you dont get 15% difference after the conversion?
I can not see T28's @ 1.2 bar producing 420 @ the flywheel.
The original map produces 470- 500bhp @ the flywheel on Track and road Dyno, this same map produced 400rwhp on the Dynojet on the first run and 380rwhp on the 3rd run.
If "rwhp on a Dynojet" and "flywheel HP" on T&R were the same, then the rwhp would have shown 490 on the first run on the Dynojet, and of course the Dynojet was showing much much lower.
At track and road with a standard map on my m400 it only made 400, then once trev mapped it was up near 470 with 1.2I can not see T28's @ 1.2 bar producing 420 @ the flywheel.
The original map produces 470- 500bhp @ the flywheel on Track and road Dyno, this same map produced 400rwhp on the Dynojet on the first run and 380rwhp on the 3rd run.
If "rwhp on a Dynojet" and "flywheel HP" on T&R were the same, then the rwhp would have shown 490 on the first run on the Dynojet, and of course the Dynojet was showing much much lower.
Edited by hollowpockets on Saturday 2nd April 16:23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc6tNgadQEc
This dynojet has been tested for accuracy, i.e. a stock evo FQ360 produced 280whp
The guy tuning the car is JP Motis, well respected tuner internationally, the power shown is at the wheels and at the end of the video you can see the AFR.
My car is not a standard M400, it has 660cc injectors, 3" catless exhaust, cam timing mod, and the engine is painted red etc.. my base map which made 400rwhp on the 1st run is taken from Simons car, i had an engine rebuild, gearbox refurbed and new clutch only 6000 miles ago, the turbos and actuators were serviced only a couple of weeks ago.
I just do not know what the conversion is from the wheels to the clutch on a Noble, Simon what did you car make at the rear wheels when you made 490 at the clutch?
This dynojet has been tested for accuracy, i.e. a stock evo FQ360 produced 280whp
The guy tuning the car is JP Motis, well respected tuner internationally, the power shown is at the wheels and at the end of the video you can see the AFR.
My car is not a standard M400, it has 660cc injectors, 3" catless exhaust, cam timing mod, and the engine is painted red etc.. my base map which made 400rwhp on the 1st run is taken from Simons car, i had an engine rebuild, gearbox refurbed and new clutch only 6000 miles ago, the turbos and actuators were serviced only a couple of weeks ago.
I just do not know what the conversion is from the wheels to the clutch on a Noble, Simon what did you car make at the rear wheels when you made 490 at the clutch?
R0162 said:
One thing my tuner did spot is that the new NGK plugs were not doing there job very well and they were missing a little at high rpm, he spotted this by listening to the engine with headphones on while tuning, so i really need to find some good alternatives for the hot climate, can anybody recommend some cold plugs.
If I recall from previous threads you said you got a set of NGK BR7EFS. These are cool running plugs and the right ones to use. I also advised you to set them as they come ie around 25thou. Didn't you also say elsewhere that you gapped them at 60thou? This is far too wide and you're probably blowing the spark out at max rpm.Set them at 25thou and try again! I think you'll find that this is what Yellowshed would recommend.
andygtt said:
All sounds good... Must admit I have never talked to a dyno or rr owner who didn't claim other people's read high so you can only really compare with the same dyno and operator imho.
You have a before and after figure and the gain was definatelly worth it plus it now runs right :-)
Cheers Andy, your right of course You have a before and after figure and the gain was definatelly worth it plus it now runs right :-)
its the before and after that matters.but i am willing to take the pepsi challenge with DD
Mike, dont forget this is a "Real BHP Yellowshed map" that was used as the platform,and i do not think anybody doubts Trevors maps are realistic to start with.
This map has then been leaned out and the boost increased , a 44rwhp increase on a yellowshed map feels very fast although i have lost the ability to shoot 2ft flames
RobP said:
If I recall from previous threads you said you got a set of NGK BR7EFS. These are cool running plugs and the right ones to use. I also advised you to set them as they come ie around 25thou. Didn't you also say elsewhere that you gapped them at 60thou? This is far too wide and you're probably blowing the spark out at max rpm.
Set them at 25thou and try again! I think you'll find that this is what Yellowshed would recommend.
No i set the motorcraft plugs to .75 mm, then i put the new NGK plugs and set the gap to 0.6mm, i checked with Trevor before i did the gaps.Set them at 25thou and try again! I think you'll find that this is what Yellowshed would recommend.
Your right they are the recommended plugs, but i have been advised to go to next level of cold plug, it is what it is, the NGK BR7 EFS were not doing the job properly, i got them gapped by the mechanic and i checked them all afterwards to make sure, they were all bang on 0.6 mm.
What the tuner has told me is that the plugs are probably ok for UK climate.
R0162 said:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc6tNgadQEc
This dynojet has been tested for accuracy, i.e. a stock evo FQ360 produced 280whp
The guy tuning the car is JP Motis, well respected tuner internationally, the power shown is at the wheels and at the end of the video you can see the AFR.
My car is not a standard M400, it has 660cc injectors, 3" catless exhaust, cam timing mod, and the engine is painted red etc.. my base map which made 400rwhp on the 1st run is taken from Simons car, i had an engine rebuild, gearbox refurbed and new clutch only 6000 miles ago, the turbos and actuators were serviced only a couple of weeks ago.
I just do not know what the conversion is from the wheels to the clutch on a Noble, Simon what did you car make at the rear wheels when you made 490 at the clutch?
This dynojet has been tested for accuracy, i.e. a stock evo FQ360 produced 280whp
The guy tuning the car is JP Motis, well respected tuner internationally, the power shown is at the wheels and at the end of the video you can see the AFR.
My car is not a standard M400, it has 660cc injectors, 3" catless exhaust, cam timing mod, and the engine is painted red etc.. my base map which made 400rwhp on the 1st run is taken from Simons car, i had an engine rebuild, gearbox refurbed and new clutch only 6000 miles ago, the turbos and actuators were serviced only a couple of weeks ago.
I just do not know what the conversion is from the wheels to the clutch on a Noble, Simon what did you car make at the rear wheels when you made 490 at the clutch?
From memory, most of the Nobles I've seen run with decent power loose around 60 bhp through the drivetrain in sixth gear.....
TuxMan said:
Well done chris sounds bang on for power !!!! speak to Trevor about plugs I think they fit a colder one to the mountune engines . Tux
Cheers Simon Once i sorted the fuel issue, you were right the cars feels very fast at this power, i went on to the US forums to get a conversion and they seem to say add 20% to the 424 RWHP which would put me at about 510 real bhp EEC at the flywheel
On my first power runs when the intercooler was cold i was making 436 rwhp in 25 deg ambient temps, what would happen if i drive the car one night in winter when the ambient temps drop to 7 deg? Would i then be running lean due to extra power?
There was also still extra scope for it to be leaned out more with the octane 100 and still be a safe map, but i think its best to have a nice safety factor, so i feel comfortable with 11.5 AFR.
If it is right what i am thinking, i think i understand now why tuners in the UK need to ice the intercooler while on the RR, just in case you are driving in freezing temps in winter i imagine your air intake temps would be very low and the ignition timing needs to cover this scenario.
but i assume the downside is that you are only ever acheiving/matching the power it did on the dyno on a very cold day?
daddysumo said:
From memory, most of the Nobles I've seen run with decent power loose around 60 bhp through the drivetrain in sixth gear.....
Hi Steve,Man ive just been out in the car with lower ambient temps, this thing flies now, i thought i knew what fast was, i was wrong, i have no idea what it must feel like to be in one of those 600bhp GT28RS monsters.
I think they used 4th gear for the power runs.
ahh either way its good
, if i add 60bhp then i am going to be looking at 485bhp when the intercooler is hot and around 500 when its cold, i'm very happy with that to be honest considering the ambient temps for mapping, because the air intake temps were realistic that is pretty much the actual power i will have available on a daily basis.At the beginning they said to me, "do you want real bhp?" i said "of course i want real bhp why would i want you to lie to me" they laughed "we dont lie to you, we give you more bhp" they were offering to ice the intercooler before power runs and said i would achieve up to 30bhp more, apparently i was one of the rare few who did not take them up on icing the intercooler in order to obtain better dyno results.
Of course its different in the UK with -10deg temps, icing the intercooler is a very real and natural occurance
I think the figures also tally perfect with the UK map, because if i did ice the Intercooler that would have given me about 525bhp, which makes sense seen as though i am on octane 100, leaner AFR and an extra 0.1 bar boost.
I am very happy at the moment, it is going to take me a while to get used to this power, in fact i'm not sure i would want anymore for road use.
Edited by R0162 on Saturday 2nd April 20:58
Edited by R0162 on Saturday 2nd April 21:35
TuxMan said:
Hi Chris , sounds like you have a good Alround package , on the way back from Jetstream today I had 20degrees intake temp and the car felt bloody fast !!! Had a drag race from the lights with a M5 had the legs on Him on low boost !!!! Feels epicly quick on high boost :-) :-)
20deg air intake temps 
or was that the ambient temp of the outside air?R0162 said:
No i set the motorcraft plugs to .75 mm, then i put the new NGK plugs and set the gap to 0.6mm, i checked with Trevor before i did the gaps.
Your right they are the recommended plugs, but i have been advised to go to next level of cold plug, it is what it is, the NGK BR7 EFS were not doing the job properly, i got them gapped by the mechanic and i checked them all afterwards to make sure, they were all bang on 0.6 mm.
What the tuner has told me is that the plugs are probably ok for UK climate.
Ooops sorry.. wrong units! Yes 0.6mm is about 25thou. First I've heard of these plugs 'failing' at high revs. Hats off to your mechanic though, most folk don't go near a car on full revs on a dyno unless they have ear defenders -let alone a stethoscope!Your right they are the recommended plugs, but i have been advised to go to next level of cold plug, it is what it is, the NGK BR7 EFS were not doing the job properly, i got them gapped by the mechanic and i checked them all afterwards to make sure, they were all bang on 0.6 mm.
What the tuner has told me is that the plugs are probably ok for UK climate.
RobP said:
Ooops sorry.. wrong units! Yes 0.6mm is about 25thou. First I've heard of these plugs 'failing' at high revs. Hats off to your mechanic though, most folk don't go near a car on full revs on a dyno unless they have ear defenders -let alone a stethoscope!
lol he is the doctor, it literally was like a stethoscope he attached to the side of the engine, he put sensors all over the place to double check everything against what the tuning software was saying.I forgot to mention previously tht the plugs i got were BR7EF i could not get the BR7 EFS, the EF is a grooved twin spark plug, and everybody was telling me that this would be better but maybe this is the problem?
So i'm trying to read up and get educated on correction factors, my runs say 36% humidity and air temps 25, if that said humidity 68% and temp 21, what difference would it make to the dyno result.
It was not so long back i saw a dyno chart where Mike noticed the humidity was showing 90% and said the dyno was scrap, is that because at 90% humidity the car would be showing more power than it should?
It was not so long back i saw a dyno chart where Mike noticed the humidity was showing 90% and said the dyno was scrap, is that because at 90% humidity the car would be showing more power than it should?
Gassing Station | Noble | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff