Really, really, really upset

[_Leg_]

I used to own a Westfield withan Xflow engine. Damned thing broke down all the time.

So, I sold that and started saving up.

April 2011 I bought my Indy R. A 2010 plate car with an R1 engine, magazine featured, "top quality build". Spent nigh on £10k on it.

Did Oulton park - £400 to sort out an oil leak

Took it for a spin today and at 6000 revs in 3rd, no power and then the engine cut out. Electrics fine, click when I press the starter, but no engine.

Looks like its siezed? My AA man neighbour thinks so.

I dunno, Im sat in the garage now and Ive just plain had enough.

[Nedz]

Have you tried to see if the engine will turn? Put it in gear and give it a push before you start worrying about a seized engine. Will work better if you take the plugs out first aswell.

[Toyowner]

Plugs out and put in gear to see if motor is siezed. Tbh, in my experience bike motors either put a leg out or knock their brains out if cattletrucked. I've not seen many 4 cyl seizures.

What's the oil level like and has the motor been fitted witrh any foerm of anti surge ?

[Nedz]

Is/should the R1 be dry sumped when in a car?

[_Leg_]

Yeah tried all that guys, wont budge.

At Mallory last week it "boiled" its coolant as it seemed to have an air "bubble" in the system. It was the end of the day so I stuck it on the trailer and came home. Fan wasnt coming on. Emptied the coolant, raised the height of the coolant bottle as it wasnt higher than all of the coolant system, refilled it, let it tickover. Looked fine. No boiling, no overheating, fan coming on as it should, ticked over sweetly.

Decided to go for a slow drive to check it continued that way, did the above. Only got to 50mph.

Calming down now. Very frustrated though. Thought I had bought reliability and after 2 track days Im £400 out of pocket and have a car that seems dead. I might be being pessamistic though due to being hacked off. Been a long week too. Must cheer up. Only money!

Duno about anti surge. I didnt build it and I have limited mechanical knowledge I'm afraid. Doesnt have to be dry sumped, many that arent.

Edited by _Leg_ on Friday 17th June 17:12

[Moospeed]

Nedz said:

Is/should the R1 be dry sumped when in a car?

Shouldn't need to be, they aren't when used for sidecar racing with slicks, ie.generating more sideways g than your average kitcar.

Baffle plate and slight overfill are ok.

[_Leg_]

right, now Im utterly confused. Sat in the house sulking, decided to go stare at the car for no good reason.

Then decided, sod it, lets see if it will start. It did. WTF?

I turned it off immediately. God knows what is wrong with it cos whilst it started, something must be based on today's events.

Edited by _Leg_ on Friday 17th June 18:39

[Toyowner]

Right.
What model R1 motor are we talking about ?

Boiling up can be a big head gasket failure signal.It is possible its slightly heat seized and released on cool down.

Has the car been tracked to death ? How often was the oil changed ? What quality oil was used ?
Is there a modded sump or tulip fitted to the oil system ?

[Sam_68]

_Leg_ said:

God knows what is wrong with it cos whilst it started, something must be based on today's events.

One thing's for sure, it ain't seized: engines that are seized stay seized; they don't magically cure themselves!

The symptoms you have described (engine cutting out, click from starter solenoid) sound suspiciously like something as simple as a bad battery connection or bad main earth connection. If your AA man failed to diagnose that, though, he's a useless fkwit.

Try checking the main cable connections to your battery, starter motor and chassis/engine earths.

[_Leg_]

Toyowner said:

Right.
What model R1 motor are we talking about ?

Boiling up can be a big head gasket failure signal.It is possible its slightly heat seized and released on cool down.

Has the car been tracked to death ? How often was the oil changed ? What quality oil was used ?
Is there a modded sump or tulip fitted to the oil system ?

It's a carbed R1.

New car, only done 700 miles. I took it to Oulton park and then it went to Mk who fitted new caps (think that's the right term) on the engine and replaced the oil.

After that it did 15 miles on the road without any issues and then I trailered it to Mallory and did a track day. At the track day it did what I described above (my post) after maybe, 2 hours in total on track at the most. I drive it to probably 80% of it's maximum on track I would guess.

AA man said this, agreeing with you (although I hadnt seen your post then so same thought independently from both of you) when I told him it had started "Boiling up can be a big head gasket failure signal.It is possible its slightly heat seized and released on cool down."

Sorry guys, im bloody useless with mechanical stuff which is ridiculous given my passion for cars. Must learn! My reaction might seem a tad dramatic in my OP but this is the straw that broke the camels back lately.

Mind you, its only money eh. I think a beer is in order!

Edited by _Leg_ on Friday 17th June 19:01

[Skyedriver]

Sorry don't know too much about the R1 but assume its water cooled.
You cooked it, it was also low on oil cos it had a leak. The head gasket failed either because of cooking it or caused by cooking it. The coolant went into the cylinder(s) caused a hydraulic lock. (It cannot compress the coolant like it can a petrol/air mix. The coolant has now drained down past the piston rings into the sump. It'll start no probs, except the sump is now full of watery oil. Drain sump replace headgasket (find out reason for the boiling in the first place (airflow, poor circulation, air lock?) refill with oil and new filter.
Well thats my guess anyway.
Hydraulic locks had a few in my time on car engines........

[Sam_68]

_Leg_ said:

"...It is possible its slightly heat seized and released on cool down."

Sorry, but this simply doesn't ring true. From your description that the engine 'cut out', I'm assuming it stopped abruptly?

Unless the engine throws a rod, a seizing engine will tend to tighten gradually and by the time it's tightened enough to actually drag the revs down to a complete stop, it's fked well beyond 'releasing on cool down'.

Hydraulic lock at 6,000rpm? Seems unlikely; usual result of a major head gasket failure at that speed is that you'll trail a plume of vapour that would put the Red Arrows to shame, as the coolant boils off through your exhaust with the engine overheating. In the majority of instances (I consider myself an expert on this; I used to have an Alfa-engined Raffo that blew its head gaskets on an almost weekly basis, and I'm an ex-Imp fanatic ), the engine actually carries on running on it remaining three cylinders.

Internet diagnoses are notoriously unreliable, and I'm worried if you genuinely couldn't turn it over by pushing the car in gear with the plugs removed as suggesed by Nedz and Toyowner above, but my first bet would still be electrical.

[_Leg_]

Said this in the other thread but after a nights sleep and putting things into perspective Ive realised that in fact the Indy is serving the exact purpose I bought it for, to do track days and be breakable and not mattering. Forgot the whole point of buying the indy was so I could go do track days and keep the JCW and M3 shiny shiny and if it broke it didnt matter. I was quite upset yesterday which in retrospect was silly about a few hundred quids worth of work.

Thanks for everyone's posts. Off out in the M3 now, nowt like a V8 to bring a smile back to your face eh!

Ill call MK or an engine specialist (any recommendations?) on Monday and exchange cash for a repaired car in a few weeks no doubt. Ce La Vie.

Edited by _Leg_ on Saturday 18th June 10:01

Edited by _Leg_ on Saturday 18th June 16:38

[jas xjr]

Beware of AA men. They are very variable in quality.
A few weeks ago my car broke down and the AA man diagnosed it as a broken supercharger. What was the fault? Fuel pump had packed in.
Do not get me wrong , I have come across some great AA and RAC blokes in my time but they are not all good. Just remembered another example . My Renault master van broke down. Aa diagnosis , engine packed in. The fault? Coil had packed in

[_Leg_]

Malc told me to drain the oil and see if there were any bits in it. There arent, nothing, seems fine to me. Sent him the pic so no doubt he will have some ideas on how to proceed.

[Sam_68]

Probably too late, but if you haven't already disposed of said oil, you might wish to be aware that there are companies who can analyse it for you for a very modest cost: Google 'engine oil analysis' for more information.

Used engine oil is black, and that's about all you can tell from it by just looking, unless there are bits of conrod or gear teeth smiling up at you and waving, 'cos hopefully your oil filter will have removed any bits of metal that would have been visible to the naked eye.

If your engine has seized, proper analysis might help tell you where the problem lay (for example whether its bits of aluminium piston, steel camshaft or lead indium bearing material that's mixed in with it).

[JTeb]

I would have checked the sump nut (presuming it's a magnetic one), or ripped open the old oil filter if checking for metal. As people above have said above, looking for it in the oil is like looking for a needle in a haystack. I have little experience with BECs so I'm finding this all interesting.

I really do respect your positive attitude. It does get less frustrating (and cheaper) when you learn to work with engines, though I've found sitting infront of the TV reading a Haynes manual is a sure way to lose the respect of your friends and family

[anonymous-user]

The 900 Lotus engine in my Sylva would lock solid couldn't turn ot with a crow bar. and then start up a few days latter, in the end traced it to fuel leaking past from the carbsl and hydraulic locking one cyl, it would then evaporate and be OK,
Strange but true.

[Moospeed]

As it's a carbed one I thought of something else since posting before.

A bit left-field perhaps but would be worth taking the clutch cover off for a look. See if there's any little bit of metal kicking about in there or more specifically - any wire, like piano wire...

Do you have any memories of the clutch being a bit strange before it went pop? Perhaps the clutch travel going too far/too long?

[jason61c]

who did you get it off? was it another engine that had only done '2000'miles? Do you know any history of it? Is it mounted in a way that could cause the engine to flex when the chassis does?