How much power should it be making!
Discussion
Evening, just after some informations really.
Recently bought myself a Tiger cat E1, its got a 2litre pinto with a kent fast road cam in, this morning I had it on the rollers and it made 128bhp at 4900 rpm and 155ft-lb at 3350rpm
I also need some info on the rev limits of these engines as I rarely go up to 5k
mod edit : no adverts please
Thanks
Recently bought myself a Tiger cat E1, its got a 2litre pinto with a kent fast road cam in, this morning I had it on the rollers and it made 128bhp at 4900 rpm and 155ft-lb at 3350rpm
I also need some info on the rev limits of these engines as I rarely go up to 5k
mod edit : no adverts please
Thanks
Edited by slinky on Friday 16th September 20:11
Are those figures at the wheels, or has the graph been automatically modified to show flywheel figures? If that's at the wheels then I'd say that's very good indeed for a lightly tuned Pinto.
Re your rev limit, just look at the graph, you can see that at around 53/5400 RPM the power drops like a brick, you won't be doing yourself or the engine any favours pushing it into this area! Your max power/torque combined is going to be between 4000 - 5000 Rpm & if you can keep the engine in the 3500 - 5000 area she will fly.
Yes, the Pinto is a little heavy, but personally I think it is a much under rated engine & when you look at the bang per buck it beats many more modern engines hands down!
Re your rev limit, just look at the graph, you can see that at around 53/5400 RPM the power drops like a brick, you won't be doing yourself or the engine any favours pushing it into this area! Your max power/torque combined is going to be between 4000 - 5000 Rpm & if you can keep the engine in the 3500 - 5000 area she will fly.
Yes, the Pinto is a little heavy, but personally I think it is a much under rated engine & when you look at the bang per buck it beats many more modern engines hands down!
If you want more power, check out Hammills power tuning book (a google using exact title may pay dividends, if you get my drift)... or even go as far as a pintworth conversion (the pinto block was used for the Cosworth so you can create a hybrid). Book may well answer rev limit question too.
Russ Bost said:
Re your rev limit, just look at the graph, you can see that at around 53/5400 RPM the power drops like a brick...
I supect that's either a rev limiter cutting in, or simply an anomaly of how the dyno trace plots when the rolling road operator cuts the power (I suspect the latter - the rolling road operator will have quite rightly seen it as pointless revving much beyond the engine's power peak) - it seems way too sharp to reflect a drop off in engine breathing or even valve bounce?The current peak power appears to be at about 4,900rpm, but that's not to say that a little more work on the breathing wouldn't allow the power curve to continue climbing beyond that point. Have a look at the Burton Power or Kent Cams websites: most mild 'fast road' cam profiles for the Pinto seem to state a power band that runs to at least 6,500rpm-7,000rpm, provided the rest of the breathing is a match.
I must admit I'm not a fan of the Pinto, but personal experience suggests that it's perfectly safe to at least 6,500rpm, 'cos I used to rev to that pretty much all the time, everywhere in a very shagged old Sierra Estate I used to own.
128bhp seems reasonable for a mild fast road engine, though.
Russ Bost said:
& when you look at the bang per buck it beats many more modern engines hands down!
Which ones exactly??? Take a 2.0 Zetec (harldy modern, but at least it's a start) easier to source than a pinto these days, cost buttons, and it would make an easy 150bhp till the cows come home as std. With a fast road cam you'd be looking at 175bhp.The fact that that pinto makes peak power at 4900rpm shows how restricted it really is. For something like a 7 style kit car i'd want it to be a bit revier than that myself. It leads me to question if the "fast road cam" is actually doing anything, or if there is an issue with the fuelling or ignition (or a very restrictive intake/exhaust system).
(regarding the revs, 5k is nothing! A totally std, knackered old pinto in an old rusty sierra will go to 6500rpm all day long.)
Max_Torque said:
The fact that that pinto makes peak power at 4900rpm shows how restricted it really is. For something like a 7 style kit car i'd want it to be a bit revier than that myself. It leads me to question if the "fast road cam" is actually doing anything, or if there is an issue with the fuelling or ignition (or a very restrictive intake/exhaust system).
(regarding the revs, 5k is nothing! A totally std, knackered old pinto in an old rusty sierra will go to 6500rpm all day long.)
Thanks, will get it back on there and have a fiddle soon, and will get the revs up higher and see it carries on pulling! As I wasnt sure on what these engines rev too wanted to be safe!(regarding the revs, 5k is nothing! A totally std, knackered old pinto in an old rusty sierra will go to 6500rpm all day long.)
I know there is some play in the fueling as its running quite rich.
"Which ones exactly??? Take a 2.0 Zetec (harldy modern, but at least it's a start) easier to source than a pinto these days, cost buttons, and it would make an easy 150bhp till the cows come home as std. With a fast road cam you'd be looking at 175bhp."
Well quite a few actually - take the Zetec in your example above - yes, the engine costs buttons - now try & put in a 7 or similar car; new sump, new engine/gearbox plate, starter motor, alternator, water pump & drive belt possibly,exhaust manifold too - change the cambelt cos otherwise you can guarantee it will snap & trash your "buttons" engine. Now you've done all the above you can actually get it in the car mated to a gearbox!
Unfortunately it won't run becauase you can't get the standard plenum etc. in, so chuck that over your shoulder along with a bunch of sensors & start again with either bike carbs, Webbers or an aftermarket ECU, throttle bodies & injectors - if you're going to go the carbs route I hope you can prove engine age old enough to not need IVA or you have another problem on your hands as you'll struggle to get a BETS test pass on carbs even with a CAT, so looks like you're stuck with the aftermarket ECU route - Oh dear! Your "buttons" engine now stands you in something over £2500 - never mind it might make a bit more power than a Pinto - Oh! sorry, forgot the rolling road session to actually all the above bits to work together so make that neare £3k! Oh, & I would also point out that 150/175BHP you're making will be at the flywheel so that would be (take the mid figure)about 122 - 130BHP at the wheels! Hmmmm! That rusty old Pinto in the corner is looking more attractive by the second!!!
If you actually want a cheap relatively modern engine to make decent horsepower then go buy a V6 Omega or a straight 6 Beemer drop it in complete with gearbox & cut away the bodywork where it won't fit!!!
Well quite a few actually - take the Zetec in your example above - yes, the engine costs buttons - now try & put in a 7 or similar car; new sump, new engine/gearbox plate, starter motor, alternator, water pump & drive belt possibly,exhaust manifold too - change the cambelt cos otherwise you can guarantee it will snap & trash your "buttons" engine. Now you've done all the above you can actually get it in the car mated to a gearbox!
Unfortunately it won't run becauase you can't get the standard plenum etc. in, so chuck that over your shoulder along with a bunch of sensors & start again with either bike carbs, Webbers or an aftermarket ECU, throttle bodies & injectors - if you're going to go the carbs route I hope you can prove engine age old enough to not need IVA or you have another problem on your hands as you'll struggle to get a BETS test pass on carbs even with a CAT, so looks like you're stuck with the aftermarket ECU route - Oh dear! Your "buttons" engine now stands you in something over £2500 - never mind it might make a bit more power than a Pinto - Oh! sorry, forgot the rolling road session to actually all the above bits to work together so make that neare £3k! Oh, & I would also point out that 150/175BHP you're making will be at the flywheel so that would be (take the mid figure)about 122 - 130BHP at the wheels! Hmmmm! That rusty old Pinto in the corner is looking more attractive by the second!!!
If you actually want a cheap relatively modern engine to make decent horsepower then go buy a V6 Omega or a straight 6 Beemer drop it in complete with gearbox & cut away the bodywork where it won't fit!!!
Interesting comments
That power curve looks ideal for a road car, and a 128bhp at the wheels isn't at all bad.
Having owned a Civic Type R, I enjoyed the sound it made at high revs, but there were times when a more accessible power band would have made it quicker.
Aside from the weight, in my (admittedly limited) experience, the big drawback with tuned Pintos compared to a more modern engine is the fuel consumption.
That power curve looks ideal for a road car, and a 128bhp at the wheels isn't at all bad.
Having owned a Civic Type R, I enjoyed the sound it made at high revs, but there were times when a more accessible power band would have made it quicker.
Aside from the weight, in my (admittedly limited) experience, the big drawback with tuned Pintos compared to a more modern engine is the fuel consumption.
i guess the diagram shows the corrected HP on the flywheel...
often people think they can add the promised power figures (e.g. camshaft, weber carbs etc...) together and therefore gain 30hp compared to the standard engine....a dyno often shows the "reality" but if the engine pulls well i wouldnt care too much about numbers on the dyno sheet.
if the power drops down suddenly i also pressume that a rev-limiter is cutting in.
often people think they can add the promised power figures (e.g. camshaft, weber carbs etc...) together and therefore gain 30hp compared to the standard engine....a dyno often shows the "reality" but if the engine pulls well i wouldnt care too much about numbers on the dyno sheet.
if the power drops down suddenly i also pressume that a rev-limiter is cutting in.
Power sounds absolutely fine for a mild level of tune.
As mentioned above the Pinto is fine up to 6500 rpm.
I have a 205 block Pinto in my Westfield and it's a great engine. In a medium state of tune it's running 155 bhp and 152 lbs/ft at the wheels and let me tell you performance is brutal - in any gear! For me the extra weight helps keep the nose on the road and with Avo adjustables dialled in correctly it drives better than a lot of other Sevens that I have driven.
As mentioned above the Pinto is fine up to 6500 rpm.
I have a 205 block Pinto in my Westfield and it's a great engine. In a medium state of tune it's running 155 bhp and 152 lbs/ft at the wheels and let me tell you performance is brutal - in any gear! For me the extra weight helps keep the nose on the road and with Avo adjustables dialled in correctly it drives better than a lot of other Sevens that I have driven.
Tigger93 said:
So the sun was shining today so took it out for a little spin, took the revs up higher to around 6k and it pulls like a train absolutely brutal, and the noise just wow!
Leave it alone and enjoy driving it ,the figs are good for amild tune engine so why spend money on things which will probably make it lumpy and tempremental ?. Pinto's are fairly bullet proof ,std con rods being the first thing to give any probs after heavy use over 7500 rpm but how long are you going to spend at that fig on the road ?. my op only !!
one eyed mick said:
Leave it alone and enjoy driving it ,the figs are good for amild tune engine so why spend money on things which will probably make it lumpy and tempremental ?. Pinto's are fairly bullet proof ,std con rods being the first thing to give any probs after heavy use over 7500 rpm but how long are you going to spend at that fig on the road ?. my op
only !!
Sound advice, and I doubt I'll ever see 7500rpm on the road anyway! Need to keep my money for petrol, not for new underwear : )only !!
one eyed mick said:
Leave it alone and enjoy driving it ,the figs are good for amild tune engine so why spend money on things which will probably make it lumpy and tempremental ?. Pinto's are fairly bullet proof ,std con rods being the first thing to give any probs after heavy use over 7500 rpm but how long are you going to spend at that fig on the road ?. my op
only !!
Sound advice, and I doubt I'll ever see 7500rpm on the road anyway! Need to keep my money for petrol, not for new underwear : )only !!
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