Get what you pay for or paying for a name?
Discussion
Tried a search but probably tricky to hit the right key words....
I'm considering buying a Caterham/Westfield type car next but I'm interested to know how much difference there is between the various marques available. There's clearly a large price difference but just how much better is a Caterham than a Robin Hood or a Westfield than a Tiger? Assuming the engines are the same spec, what else makes the difference?
I'm considering buying a Caterham/Westfield type car next but I'm interested to know how much difference there is between the various marques available. There's clearly a large price difference but just how much better is a Caterham than a Robin Hood or a Westfield than a Tiger? Assuming the engines are the same spec, what else makes the difference?
Edited by G-Lader on Saturday 21st January 00:19
never built a car but own one and have pals that have all of the above and others......
think its quite simple...firstly before i get mugged by someone who wants to say that xyz is as good at handling as a westie or a caterham i'm talking about build.
firstly a kit based car that requires a high degree of builder input will be as good as the builder and his wallet. the beauty of a Caterham ( and i assume westie) is that its a complete kit with a very straightforward assembley process. Compare that to some other manufacturers where you may well have to fettle bits n pieces to get them to fit and you'll start to see why there can be such a variance in the finished article.
the big selling point of many kits is initial price and the suggested build cost - but a look through classified shows that in most cases ppl have opted for new engines and many other new components with build prices way above the suggested levels. OK maybe not to teh same cost as a Caterham kit/westie kit - but far far closer than the initial budget.
westie, gbs, mk, tiger to name but 4 - i know guys who built theirs and each required a degree more thought and fettling than an out of the box solution. But for someone that likes to have their own input, wants to source things cheaply etc - then its a no brainer.
as for anything else......if you are seriously looking at building a car as opposed to just asking the question, well the next thing is surely which one appeals as they are all substantially different in appearance.
think its quite simple...firstly before i get mugged by someone who wants to say that xyz is as good at handling as a westie or a caterham i'm talking about build.
firstly a kit based car that requires a high degree of builder input will be as good as the builder and his wallet. the beauty of a Caterham ( and i assume westie) is that its a complete kit with a very straightforward assembley process. Compare that to some other manufacturers where you may well have to fettle bits n pieces to get them to fit and you'll start to see why there can be such a variance in the finished article.
the big selling point of many kits is initial price and the suggested build cost - but a look through classified shows that in most cases ppl have opted for new engines and many other new components with build prices way above the suggested levels. OK maybe not to teh same cost as a Caterham kit/westie kit - but far far closer than the initial budget.
westie, gbs, mk, tiger to name but 4 - i know guys who built theirs and each required a degree more thought and fettling than an out of the box solution. But for someone that likes to have their own input, wants to source things cheaply etc - then its a no brainer.
as for anything else......if you are seriously looking at building a car as opposed to just asking the question, well the next thing is surely which one appeals as they are all substantially different in appearance.
To be honest the build interests me less at this point than the drive. I'll build one in the years to come when my son is a little older and able to join in. I'm more interested in handling etc. I can understand what you're saying about being "as good as the builder". I suppose I'd have to make judgements based on fit and finish amongst other things.
robinhood looks like a seven but has a complete different design approach:
the kit has been constructed to offer a cheap version of a seven look alike car.
the majortiy of the cars has a (stainless) steel monocoque, not a spaceframe as the "other" sevens.
the monocoque isnt that stiff, has sharp edges, can crack etc.
a robin is cheap in every detail, has vague suspension designs and needs a lot of skills, tools, a good workshop and money (mostly everything what a typical robin builder does not have) to get a reasonable result at the end.
the only advantage of a robin is: if you have a fat ass and a big belly you will still fit inside, whereas most other typical kits from westham, caterfield, tiger and sylva offer less room...but are also less heavy.
the kit has been constructed to offer a cheap version of a seven look alike car.
the majortiy of the cars has a (stainless) steel monocoque, not a spaceframe as the "other" sevens.
the monocoque isnt that stiff, has sharp edges, can crack etc.
a robin is cheap in every detail, has vague suspension designs and needs a lot of skills, tools, a good workshop and money (mostly everything what a typical robin builder does not have) to get a reasonable result at the end.
the only advantage of a robin is: if you have a fat ass and a big belly you will still fit inside, whereas most other typical kits from westham, caterfield, tiger and sylva offer less room...but are also less heavy.
While I agree with a lot of what you say about RH's, is it really useful to generalise about the builders at every chance you get?
If so then, having said this...
If so then, having said this...
Comadis said:
...the only advantage of a robin is: if you have a fat ass and a big belly you will still fit inside...
...I guess they should sell well in Germany.Go to a kit car show, or the manufacturers, and see the quality of the kit for yourself.
Many years ago I compared Caterham with its rivals at Stoneleigh and found that its rivals looked somewhat shabby by comparison. More worrying was that all the cars I compared were show cars. Some of the welds on the non-Caterham chassis looked rubbish to be honest.
Things may well have changed since then but I'd still recommend that you do this yourself.
Many years ago I compared Caterham with its rivals at Stoneleigh and found that its rivals looked somewhat shabby by comparison. More worrying was that all the cars I compared were show cars. Some of the welds on the non-Caterham chassis looked rubbish to be honest.
Things may well have changed since then but I'd still recommend that you do this yourself.
"Many years ago I compared Caterham with its rivals at Stoneleigh and found that its rivals looked somewhat shabby by comparison. More worrying was that all the cars I compared were show cars. Some of the welds on the non-Caterham chassis looked rubbish to be honest."
thats what i can confirm too!!!
i recently bought a Tiger from the Tiger factory....the car was factory built 8months ago...surplus it was the factory demo car shown on certain exhibitions. when the car was in my home-garage and i chekced "behind the scenes" i found so many heavily bodged-up jobs that i would never recommend to buy a factory one from them.
also the welding of the chassis, on every car i checked in their workshop, didnt look very nice.
i also had the chance to check their new models (Era30, Aviator), even on the first view you could recognize lots of little details not been done well.
so no wonder when the owner tells me "hard times in the kitcar industry at the moment, we do not sell many cars actually"
there are many kits on the market and also companies like robinhood do not sleep..their new name GBS and their new range of cars is a big step for them...all cars are now spaceframed....so the actual GBS is more or less a "proper" seven, whereas the "old" monocoque ones have been a look-alike only.
@adit: during my visits in UK i see more fat people than in germany...look at the UK Motorway service stations: Burgerking, Kentucky fried chicken... Americanisation in quick progress!!!
thats what i can confirm too!!!
i recently bought a Tiger from the Tiger factory....the car was factory built 8months ago...surplus it was the factory demo car shown on certain exhibitions. when the car was in my home-garage and i chekced "behind the scenes" i found so many heavily bodged-up jobs that i would never recommend to buy a factory one from them.
also the welding of the chassis, on every car i checked in their workshop, didnt look very nice.
i also had the chance to check their new models (Era30, Aviator), even on the first view you could recognize lots of little details not been done well.
so no wonder when the owner tells me "hard times in the kitcar industry at the moment, we do not sell many cars actually"
there are many kits on the market and also companies like robinhood do not sleep..their new name GBS and their new range of cars is a big step for them...all cars are now spaceframed....so the actual GBS is more or less a "proper" seven, whereas the "old" monocoque ones have been a look-alike only.
@adit: during my visits in UK i see more fat people than in germany...look at the UK Motorway service stations: Burgerking, Kentucky fried chicken... Americanisation in quick progress!!!
Edited by Comadis on Saturday 21st January 11:39
AdiT said:
While I agree with a lot of what you say about RH's, is it really useful to generalise about the builders at every chance you get?
I find it's helpful.When someone types something like that it just tells me to ignore whatever other crap they might spout. I try to only listen to grown-ups on here.
"While I agree with a lot of what you say about RH's, is it really useful to generalise about the builders at every chance you get?"
its sure a generalisation what i do...but why the typical robin is missing a certain quality finish finally? the kit is relatively cheap, so you need to invest a lot of extra money to get it right, also when you dont have a really well equipped workshop and very good skills you will never get it done right.
on the one side you save money bying a cheap kit..on the other side you need money to get it done right.
and exactly "this" money, incl. the well equipped workshop (which again costs money) is missing with the typical money-saver robin buyer and therefore the final product has a lack of quality.
its sure a generalisation what i do...but why the typical robin is missing a certain quality finish finally? the kit is relatively cheap, so you need to invest a lot of extra money to get it right, also when you dont have a really well equipped workshop and very good skills you will never get it done right.
on the one side you save money bying a cheap kit..on the other side you need money to get it done right.
and exactly "this" money, incl. the well equipped workshop (which again costs money) is missing with the typical money-saver robin buyer and therefore the final product has a lack of quality.
I don't think it is helpful to start laying into one particular kit or another.
As you say you are more interested in the driving experience at the moment, I will tell you my experience.
20 years ago I built a Westfield, because the chassis looked well engineered and the Caterham salesman was quite rude!
While the finished car drove quite well, the brake balance was dangerous with premature lock up of the rear wheels, and very loose handling.
It had adjustable dampers, and when I asked what I should set them to, I was told that most people try them on 3 clicks to start with.
Last year I built a Caterham, because I'd always wanted one and wished I had ignored the salesman and bought one first time around
The build process was much more straight forward, and when I'd finished it I was encouraged to take it to Caterham for a free(ish) post build check to make sure it was built properly. They test drove the car, and the dampers have no adjustment because they have spent years tailoring the spring rates and dampers to the car.
The handling of my Caterham is much better than the Westfield, and the brake balance safe.
Now, Westfield have surely come on a lot since 1990, and if I had know what I was doing, I'm sure I could have got my old Westfield to handle much better.
But I think it is fair to say that if you buy a Caterham it is very likely that you will have a good handling car. If you buy most other kits, you may have to try and develop the car yourself to some degree, and some of the cheaper kits do have serious compromises in their design.
By the way, my brother has Fisher Fury that was built by someone who knew what they were doing and has been checked over by the manufacturer.
It handles brilliantly, and has been a very reasonably priced way into buying a sportscar. It does however have some practical problems which mean I wouldn't want to swap my Seven for it.
As you say you are more interested in the driving experience at the moment, I will tell you my experience.
20 years ago I built a Westfield, because the chassis looked well engineered and the Caterham salesman was quite rude!
While the finished car drove quite well, the brake balance was dangerous with premature lock up of the rear wheels, and very loose handling.
It had adjustable dampers, and when I asked what I should set them to, I was told that most people try them on 3 clicks to start with.
Last year I built a Caterham, because I'd always wanted one and wished I had ignored the salesman and bought one first time around
The build process was much more straight forward, and when I'd finished it I was encouraged to take it to Caterham for a free(ish) post build check to make sure it was built properly. They test drove the car, and the dampers have no adjustment because they have spent years tailoring the spring rates and dampers to the car.
The handling of my Caterham is much better than the Westfield, and the brake balance safe.
Now, Westfield have surely come on a lot since 1990, and if I had know what I was doing, I'm sure I could have got my old Westfield to handle much better.
But I think it is fair to say that if you buy a Caterham it is very likely that you will have a good handling car. If you buy most other kits, you may have to try and develop the car yourself to some degree, and some of the cheaper kits do have serious compromises in their design.
By the way, my brother has Fisher Fury that was built by someone who knew what they were doing and has been checked over by the manufacturer.
It handles brilliantly, and has been a very reasonably priced way into buying a sportscar. It does however have some practical problems which mean I wouldn't want to swap my Seven for it.
I think Caterham stand head and shoulders above the rest. Not only in terms of reputation, but general quality,fit, finish, after sales etc. They may cost a lot more but when it comes to sell you will get most of your money back if you buy wisely in the first place. ie Factory built or private built from a full kit from caterham. People seem to like to buy "standard" models. I think a very safe buy.
Having said that in my opinion the Caterham chassis design is not the last word in design and quality.
Westfield, MAC#1, MK etc all seem to be pretty much the same? Basic chassis design, size, donor components. I certianly don't think that Westfield have a lot more to offer than the others unless you require a kit in a box to achieve a standard Westfield.
Again not the last word in chassis design but and it's a big but, build any of them properly, get the suspension set up and the shocks valved to suit and they will out handle and out perform 99.9% of anything you will ever meet on the road and 90% on a track day.
If you are new to kit cars and want to try a few track days, club meets, go for sunday blasts then I would consider a cheaper Westfield, Sylva, Fisher or the like and see how you get on with the experience. If you like tinkering and the whole ownership experience consider your options then. You will have more experience and a much better idea of what your ideal kit will be. Judge the various merits for your self.
Then if you are like me you will find the only way to get what you want is to build it yourself. With the right bits to suit your needs.
Having said that in my opinion the Caterham chassis design is not the last word in design and quality.
Westfield, MAC#1, MK etc all seem to be pretty much the same? Basic chassis design, size, donor components. I certianly don't think that Westfield have a lot more to offer than the others unless you require a kit in a box to achieve a standard Westfield.
Again not the last word in chassis design but and it's a big but, build any of them properly, get the suspension set up and the shocks valved to suit and they will out handle and out perform 99.9% of anything you will ever meet on the road and 90% on a track day.
If you are new to kit cars and want to try a few track days, club meets, go for sunday blasts then I would consider a cheaper Westfield, Sylva, Fisher or the like and see how you get on with the experience. If you like tinkering and the whole ownership experience consider your options then. You will have more experience and a much better idea of what your ideal kit will be. Judge the various merits for your self.
Then if you are like me you will find the only way to get what you want is to build it yourself. With the right bits to suit your needs.
It's simple really - you get what you pay for.
If you want to drive the car as the original 7 designer Colin chapman intended after you've built it, buy a Caterham of Maybe a Westfield ot Sylva, If you merely want a project that looks like a 7 then any of the others will probably suit you. As as been mentioned the QC on Kits is not good, I built a Robin Hood, I spent amny many hour getting the build right, the result was a nice looking car that handled like a pig, and no amount of tweaking of the suspension would make the car handle as I wanted.
Eventually I sold the Robin for a very good price { Imade a coupla £K over what I'd spent on building it] I then rebuilt my Dutton which always handled well, and definitely better than the RobinHood.
After selling the robin I bought an original 1970 Lotus 7, rebuilt it and am very pleased with the results. In fact the wife liked driving it so much she sold her Morgan and now owns a Caterham - NUFF SAID
One other point not mentioned, the Caterham sales people are a bunch of Male t
ts, before the Wife bought her Morgan she seriously looked at buying a Caterham kit [for me to build for her] talking to the Caterham sales dicks at Stoneleigh, she was treated with disdain - hence she then looked at Morgan, the morgan Sales people were everthing Caterham were not. so She bought a Morgan!!
However the Morgan also handled like a pig, so eventually she did buy a Caterham, purely coz it does what its supposed to - drivesand handles really well
If you want to drive the car as the original 7 designer Colin chapman intended after you've built it, buy a Caterham of Maybe a Westfield ot Sylva, If you merely want a project that looks like a 7 then any of the others will probably suit you. As as been mentioned the QC on Kits is not good, I built a Robin Hood, I spent amny many hour getting the build right, the result was a nice looking car that handled like a pig, and no amount of tweaking of the suspension would make the car handle as I wanted.
Eventually I sold the Robin for a very good price { Imade a coupla £K over what I'd spent on building it] I then rebuilt my Dutton which always handled well, and definitely better than the RobinHood.
After selling the robin I bought an original 1970 Lotus 7, rebuilt it and am very pleased with the results. In fact the wife liked driving it so much she sold her Morgan and now owns a Caterham - NUFF SAID
One other point not mentioned, the Caterham sales people are a bunch of Male t
ts, before the Wife bought her Morgan she seriously looked at buying a Caterham kit [for me to build for her] talking to the Caterham sales dicks at Stoneleigh, she was treated with disdain - hence she then looked at Morgan, the morgan Sales people were everthing Caterham were not. so She bought a Morgan!!However the Morgan also handled like a pig, so eventually she did buy a Caterham, purely coz it does what its supposed to - drivesand handles really well
Edited by S47 on Saturday 21st January 13:38
[quote=greengreenwood7]
Compare that to some other manufacturers where you may well have to fettle bits n pieces to get them to fit and you'll start to see why there can be such a variance in the finished article.
quote]
Spot on. I Built a Tornado Raptor V8 and there was a lot of "fettling" going on I can tell you.
Compare that to some other manufacturers where you may well have to fettle bits n pieces to get them to fit and you'll start to see why there can be such a variance in the finished article.
quote]
Spot on. I Built a Tornado Raptor V8 and there was a lot of "fettling" going on I can tell you.
Arthur Jackson said:
find it's helpful.
When someone types something like that it just tells me to ignore whatever other crap they might spout. I try to only listen to grown-ups on here.
Knowing Adi personally and quite well, and having seen his technical ability, skills and build quality up close, I dont really think he spouts crap at all. I would love to see one of your builds along side his. When someone types something like that it just tells me to ignore whatever other crap they might spout. I try to only listen to grown-ups on here.
Gassing Station | Kit Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff