Whatever happened to
Discussion
Think he sold his Westfield FW400 a couple of months back. Last I heard of him he was explaining on here there was NO NEED to fit adjustable dampers at all on a kit car, even when you are using the car on road and several different racetracks. You can apparently buy non-adjustable ones that are perfect in all conditions, road and track, rain or shine.
I was about to ask him to elaborate and ask why race teams spend days on end fine tuning 2, 3 even 4-way adjustible dampers when they could buy pefect non-adjustible off-the-shelf ones for all conditions and save themselves ££££££££££'s. Oh well, guess I will never know now.
I was about to ask him to elaborate and ask why race teams spend days on end fine tuning 2, 3 even 4-way adjustible dampers when they could buy pefect non-adjustible off-the-shelf ones for all conditions and save themselves ££££££££££'s. Oh well, guess I will never know now.
Sorry Sam, the OP was asking about dampers for his Caterham, not a GT3 racer. Maybe with hindsight I should have treated the Caterham differently to other kitcars, especially if it was stock factory spec and Caterham has spent fortunes optimising OEM spec replacement dampers. But from what I have heard from Caterham owning friends, the non-adjusts ane not perfect by any means.
Here is what I originally quoted anyway for advice for his car, he was specifically asking about buying adjustible ones. Admittedly Caterhams do off-the-shelf nn-adjustible stuff, but as a guess i'd think the already knew that?? And he did not want them. He was asking about adjustibles. And why do the Caterham racecars use adjustible dampers then if the non-adjusts are good enough?????????
"If you want aftermarket adjustible dampers, Traxspax and Protech are worth a look. both companies do single and double adjustible, for around £500.. These are commonly used in kitcar racing, on all marqes, and have performed well. I know non-adjustibles can be good if correctly valved but nothing can properly cover bumpy b-roads and smooth racetracks without being adjustible.
Whilst your explaination absolutely rings true in theory, in practice on real world multi-use kitcars it is utter b
ks, and I think you know it.
Thanks for coming back and saying hi anyway. You can't leave it can you?
Edited for my sausage fingers
Here is what I originally quoted anyway for advice for his car, he was specifically asking about buying adjustible ones. Admittedly Caterhams do off-the-shelf nn-adjustible stuff, but as a guess i'd think the already knew that?? And he did not want them. He was asking about adjustibles. And why do the Caterham racecars use adjustible dampers then if the non-adjusts are good enough?????????
"If you want aftermarket adjustible dampers, Traxspax and Protech are worth a look. both companies do single and double adjustible, for around £500.. These are commonly used in kitcar racing, on all marqes, and have performed well. I know non-adjustibles can be good if correctly valved but nothing can properly cover bumpy b-roads and smooth racetracks without being adjustible.
Whilst your explaination absolutely rings true in theory, in practice on real world multi-use kitcars it is utter b
ks, and I think you know it. Thanks for coming back and saying hi anyway. You can't leave it can you?
Edited for my sausage fingers
Edited by Furyblade_Lee on Wednesday 1st August 23:15
Edited by Furyblade_Lee on Wednesday 1st August 23:23
I understand what you say Sam_68, but in the real world "we" and by that I mean 90% of people I know who run kitcars, adjust our ride heights for sprints and trackdays, or touring 2-up full of luggage for road use etc. and the need to get the cars on and off the ferry. And we often use different tyre and wheel combos. Having fully ajusible suspension helps greatly to fine tune the handling , adjustible ride height adjustible damping are part of that. I know it may be crude by your standards, but I have spent many hours at the track with quite frankly guys who are in a different league driving wise to most of us, and damping adjustments are constant. Don't know why, they just are. When its wet I disconnect my front ARB and up the front dampers slightly to compensate, and back them off when it goes back on. I stiffent the damping slightly for fast smooth tracks, and soften them for the rain or bumpy airfield sprints. Again, probobly wrong in the textbook, but it works for me.
And if you make any more comebacks to PH, I am gonna have to call you Audley Harrison.
And if you make any more comebacks to PH, I am gonna have to call you Audley Harrison.
TheLastPost said:
FuryBlade_Lee said:
...the OP was asking about dampers for his Caterham, not a GT3 racer
Indeed. Which is why my advice was that he might be better off fitting non-adjustables that have been correctly valved for the car after over a quarter of a century's development by the best manufacturer in the business, rather than messing around with cheap and inconsistent adjustables.TheLastPost said:
FuryBlade_Lee said:
And why do the Caterham racecars use adjustable dampers then if the non-adjusts are good enough?????????
For a number of reasons, no doubt (including the fact that as I've already said, even single adjustables allow you some scope to tune transitional handling, it's just at the cost of ultimate grip and ride damping).....but first and foremost, I suspect (knowing Caterham), because like the wider-than-optimum tyres and carbon tat, it's what the market expects. And if you're in business, you should never pass up on an opportunity to part fools from their money.
PS Sam, dropped you over an email...could you possibly drop me one back?
I’ve been watching this thread, it’s put a smile on my face, please continue.
I would just like to add my humble opinion, which is based on observing the real world, please don’t shout at me though, just carry on between your selves, I want to watch;
Anyway, expensive fully adjustable suspension is really designed for the track, where if you have the money to buy these items, you also have the money to have a fully developed car to match; hire the correct people to set it up for you and spends weeks on the race circuit to fine tune it. Your car will probably not be road legal, as it will be totally focused for racing, such as your adjustable suspension.
“Cheap” adjustable coil overs have their place, it helps to get the correct ride height on your kitcar, and in reality most people put them on their cars for the “bling” factor, and to lower their ride height on their sport’s hatch back which spends most of its time stuck in traffic on the way to work. They lower the car to look cool, and probably haven’t realised they’ve mucked up the steering and now have bad bump steer.
I know it’s a very simplistic approach, put if you lower your road car/kitcar, it’s best to stiffen your shocks to reduce the chance of bottoming out your suspension.
In the real world, if you have a road car, it’s best to stick with the OEM suspension, because that’s been set up for you to match the car. Kitcars haven’t had the same amount of time and money spent on development, and in its very nature, every kitcar is different so are driving styles and requirements. If you’re happy with the suspension you can afford, then there’s no real issue.
I think people may be taking facts from one side and applying it to the other, which will always cause an argument, however entertaining it is though.
I would just like to add my humble opinion, which is based on observing the real world, please don’t shout at me though, just carry on between your selves, I want to watch;
Anyway, expensive fully adjustable suspension is really designed for the track, where if you have the money to buy these items, you also have the money to have a fully developed car to match; hire the correct people to set it up for you and spends weeks on the race circuit to fine tune it. Your car will probably not be road legal, as it will be totally focused for racing, such as your adjustable suspension.
“Cheap” adjustable coil overs have their place, it helps to get the correct ride height on your kitcar, and in reality most people put them on their cars for the “bling” factor, and to lower their ride height on their sport’s hatch back which spends most of its time stuck in traffic on the way to work. They lower the car to look cool, and probably haven’t realised they’ve mucked up the steering and now have bad bump steer.
I know it’s a very simplistic approach, put if you lower your road car/kitcar, it’s best to stiffen your shocks to reduce the chance of bottoming out your suspension.
In the real world, if you have a road car, it’s best to stick with the OEM suspension, because that’s been set up for you to match the car. Kitcars haven’t had the same amount of time and money spent on development, and in its very nature, every kitcar is different so are driving styles and requirements. If you’re happy with the suspension you can afford, then there’s no real issue.
I think people may be taking facts from one side and applying it to the other, which will always cause an argument, however entertaining it is though.
Furyblade_Lee said:
Jonty, out of curiosity, if you were to convert your ST into a competition car of any sort, say into a stock hatch racer, would you run your standard Ford suspension?
That is different, it would be moving out of the remit of the intention by Ford. The caterham is designed to be used on track. It should therefore cater for this without the need to adjust suspension. I would probably fit either Nitron, Penske or Ohlins suspension if I was to turn it into a track car of any description. Likewise I would upgrade the brakes, stiffen the chassis, strip it out, fit a rollcage, buckets and harnesses, fire system and electrical cut outs.I work alongside a company that runs a bespoke car company. They lent a customer one of their cars, and to gain extra ground clearance the customer wound the springs up so high on the platforms, caused the springs to go coil bound! This did a lot of damage to the car!!!
For a road car, that spends a small amount of time on track doing nothing other than playing, it needs nothing other than simple dampers! providing they are valved for the job in hand. Yes the market wants, so quite often the market gets...but does it really need it? My mother has a Samsung Galaxy II, all she does is send texts and makes phone calls. The market dictated to her she needed a smart phone...but when in your 70's do you really need it?
Hi again Martin
Firstly, I understand why you changed the suspension; it makes sense; but you did make changes to suit your use of the car: I have no issue with that!
I have had a bit of work done on the car including four wheel alignment. The geometry was out by some margin and needed some remedial repairs which would account for your presumption.
Currently the new seats and seat belts are being fitted and the fixing changed to suit.
The car is going great and I have almost mastered the gear change. It is an awesome car which I need to learn to drive as the braking points and cornering speeds are so very different to my current track day car.
I have some events booked for the rest of the year and hope that after those Aeroman and I can do the car justice on track days.
I have also looked at the weight and how to reduce it. You will know that some bits are from the black arts of the West Midlands. Before we upgrade anything we will deal with weight reduction first; probably the biggest improvement is cutting out the pork pies!
Thanks for selling it to us!
Firstly, I understand why you changed the suspension; it makes sense; but you did make changes to suit your use of the car: I have no issue with that!
I have had a bit of work done on the car including four wheel alignment. The geometry was out by some margin and needed some remedial repairs which would account for your presumption.
Currently the new seats and seat belts are being fitted and the fixing changed to suit.
The car is going great and I have almost mastered the gear change. It is an awesome car which I need to learn to drive as the braking points and cornering speeds are so very different to my current track day car.
I have some events booked for the rest of the year and hope that after those Aeroman and I can do the car justice on track days.
I have also looked at the weight and how to reduce it. You will know that some bits are from the black arts of the West Midlands. Before we upgrade anything we will deal with weight reduction first; probably the biggest improvement is cutting out the pork pies!
Thanks for selling it to us!
I must admit to finding you mildly amusing again now :-)
You come on PH repeatedly trying to undermine, argue, and rubbish what mild mannered laymen kit car enthusiasts discuss, admittedly sometimes wrongly in their assumptions, but you do it in a deliberately confrontational way. ( anyone who cares to, check out another TheLastPost (!) thread about rocket propulsion which 2 PH'ers alerted me to , in which Sam try's to rubbish a guy over his use and understanding of the word "never" I kid you not. He did not ask for or deserve that Sam! You just started being offensive for the sake of it.
I WAS ready to bow down to your superior knowledge of vehicle dynamics, but it appears that you just "talk a good
one" Sam. Google and Wikepedia are I'm sure your best mates.
I notice you deleted your post about relative stiffness of Caterham and Westfield chassis in minute detail, and the relative stiffness of you carbon fibre tub from your FW400. Correct me if I am wrong, and I know you will, if you did not say you could not really tell the difference in chassis stiffness yourself? I am not surprised if you diagnose an " on the way out " expensive Penske damper ( that's pretty impressive in itself! ) with geometry WAY out and something else
( not specified ) worn on your old FW400 chassis. You certainly APPEAR to have not told the purchaser before you sold it to him.... :-)
You then in particular aim at me for suggesting using adjustable dampers on a kitcar (?) when 90%+ of us do, and we actually DO adjust them which is all wrong apparently. Please enlighten us Sam to where we buy these bespoke, affordable do-all dampers for our unique cars, as I like to buy a set thanks.
And all this from someone who also ribbed me about ARBs and not knowing how to set up a car, or WHY adjustments change the characteristics.
We have just discovered you, who gives the impression he is up there with the best of Hethels chassis engineers, rides round in an FW400 with Penske suspension, highlighting it's fantastic steering and you are not even aware the geometry is way out and worn components ( but not the damper Sam! ) . You say you did not even check it in your ownership. You say though in your quest for a better ride you removed the front and rear ARBs that were put there by the designers and constrictors, the same ones that saw fit to make the tub from carbonfibre and fit a Hewland transaxle. What do they know eh? But YOU ( roughly ) calculated the "balance" would be fine without. Quite dramatic, considering you never bothered to see if all 4 wheels were pointing in the right direction first?
Lastly, I am sorry for this rant to the other PH'ers here and particularly those I know personally and know what I am about. But PH used to be a fun place, particularly when I was constructing my car and a wealth of help and info. Thanks to people like Sam, who talk a GOOD one on the physics and technical side, It descends into petty squabbles. I seem get drawn in and apologise for that.
Sam, ( TheLastPost ) if you want to come across as done chassis and handling guru and rubbish please give us some credentials, have you ever held a competition licence? Were you a multiple race winner on you non-adjusible dampers? Were you backroom staff at Lotus Engineering? Or are you just a Wikipedia Warrior?
Please let the rest of us play nicely without confronting everyone at every opportunity. I don't want you to delete your profile again or start up a new one.
Just be nice :-)
You come on PH repeatedly trying to undermine, argue, and rubbish what mild mannered laymen kit car enthusiasts discuss, admittedly sometimes wrongly in their assumptions, but you do it in a deliberately confrontational way. ( anyone who cares to, check out another TheLastPost (!) thread about rocket propulsion which 2 PH'ers alerted me to , in which Sam try's to rubbish a guy over his use and understanding of the word "never" I kid you not. He did not ask for or deserve that Sam! You just started being offensive for the sake of it.
I WAS ready to bow down to your superior knowledge of vehicle dynamics, but it appears that you just "talk a good
one" Sam. Google and Wikepedia are I'm sure your best mates.
I notice you deleted your post about relative stiffness of Caterham and Westfield chassis in minute detail, and the relative stiffness of you carbon fibre tub from your FW400. Correct me if I am wrong, and I know you will, if you did not say you could not really tell the difference in chassis stiffness yourself? I am not surprised if you diagnose an " on the way out " expensive Penske damper ( that's pretty impressive in itself! ) with geometry WAY out and something else
( not specified ) worn on your old FW400 chassis. You certainly APPEAR to have not told the purchaser before you sold it to him.... :-)
You then in particular aim at me for suggesting using adjustable dampers on a kitcar (?) when 90%+ of us do, and we actually DO adjust them which is all wrong apparently. Please enlighten us Sam to where we buy these bespoke, affordable do-all dampers for our unique cars, as I like to buy a set thanks.
And all this from someone who also ribbed me about ARBs and not knowing how to set up a car, or WHY adjustments change the characteristics.
We have just discovered you, who gives the impression he is up there with the best of Hethels chassis engineers, rides round in an FW400 with Penske suspension, highlighting it's fantastic steering and you are not even aware the geometry is way out and worn components ( but not the damper Sam! ) . You say you did not even check it in your ownership. You say though in your quest for a better ride you removed the front and rear ARBs that were put there by the designers and constrictors, the same ones that saw fit to make the tub from carbonfibre and fit a Hewland transaxle. What do they know eh? But YOU ( roughly ) calculated the "balance" would be fine without. Quite dramatic, considering you never bothered to see if all 4 wheels were pointing in the right direction first?
Lastly, I am sorry for this rant to the other PH'ers here and particularly those I know personally and know what I am about. But PH used to be a fun place, particularly when I was constructing my car and a wealth of help and info. Thanks to people like Sam, who talk a GOOD one on the physics and technical side, It descends into petty squabbles. I seem get drawn in and apologise for that.
Sam, ( TheLastPost ) if you want to come across as done chassis and handling guru and rubbish please give us some credentials, have you ever held a competition licence? Were you a multiple race winner on you non-adjusible dampers? Were you backroom staff at Lotus Engineering? Or are you just a Wikipedia Warrior?
Please let the rest of us play nicely without confronting everyone at every opportunity. I don't want you to delete your profile again or start up a new one.
Just be nice :-)
:-)
Just checked out the Penske website, very impressive! BTCC, A1GP and Le Mans cars catered for. I am sure MEV, MK and RAW will be adding them to their price lists soon, and does the price include 2 weeks setting up valving to your individual car by a Lotus F1 chassis guy as yours did? Cant believe they are not more popular in kitcar builds?
Would love to stay longer and amuse myself some more, but I REALLY must get back to work now.
Just checked out the Penske website, very impressive! BTCC, A1GP and Le Mans cars catered for. I am sure MEV, MK and RAW will be adding them to their price lists soon, and does the price include 2 weeks setting up valving to your individual car by a Lotus F1 chassis guy as yours did? Cant believe they are not more popular in kitcar builds?
Would love to stay longer and amuse myself some more, but I REALLY must get back to work now.
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