V8 kitcars

[chrisdurham]

Hi guys looking at a potential purchase next year and fancy a v8 westy. Wot other kit options are there? I wudnt be looking for something show condition. But a decent useable example. Wot sort of price ranges would I be looking at etc

[nike 5]

Will be aiming to sell mine in the spring.
It's too much of temptation... use old one or finish new one :-)
If you want to chat about it.

[Steffan]

I have had various V8 and V12 Kit cars over the last forty years. (I an ancient ). Some have been glorious cars with shattering acceleration and urge and absolute rockets in dry conditions. And the V8 burble, or V12 howl through twin side exhausts is priceless in itself. Certainly driven at least twenty such cars over the many years including two V8 Westfields.

HOWEVER there is a real downside to very light rear wheel drive and heavy engined cars with 60% weight over the front wheels and virtually no grip over the rear wheels particularly in the wet. Vicious oversteer is a real problem in those conditions. The sudden snap can catch the unwary, and even the very very wary on occasion. Inherently unstable handling is the downside of so much power in a very light narrow car.

The racing garage I use for machining etc have a permanent bet with me that they can replace the V8 on any kit car with a really fruity Duratec engine with turbo that will blow the socks off any V8 engined kit car on the road, because of the vastly better weight distribution and much lighter front end and overall weight saving. They are of course correct.

I still have a V8 Dutton heavily modified Dutton with a 4.2 John Eales engine which has the burble, does goes like a rocket but is unsafe in any wet conditions, despite years of modification, an LSD rear end, fully independent suspension all round etc. I can only drive the car in the summer.

But I have had the car for years and I keep it because, on sunny days and country lanes it brings a smile to my face and it owes me absolutely nothing. Up to you, I like V8 engined lightweight cars. But be aware of the serious downsides in the wrong conditions.

[rdodger]

JWE Thruxton?

Now with added TVR V8 Power

Have a chat with Jim. He may be tempted to sell the demo car.

http://www.thruxtongt.co.uk/Thruxton%20GT%20Galler...

[smash]

Steffan said:

The racing garage I use for machining etc have a permanent bet with me that they can replace the V8 on any kit car with a really fruity Duratec engine with turbo that will blow the socks off any V8 engined kit car on the road, because of the vastly better weight distribution and much lighter front end and overall weight saving. They are of course incorrect.

Fixed that for you

[Steffan]

smash said:

Steffan said:

The racing garage I use for machining etc have a permanent bet with me that they can replace the V8 on any kit car with a really fruity Duratec engine with turbo that will blow the socks off any V8 engined kit car on the road, because of the vastly better weight distribution and much lighter front end and overall weight saving. They are of course incorrect.

Fixed that for you

I presume you have driven cars from the same stable in that form to be able to make that judgement. My experience is that the lighter weight turbo engined cars are very much better handling and quicker. They do not have the V8 sound or the top gear take you anywhere top gear flexibility. But in terms of outright performance the turbo would win.

[rdodger]

That well be true Steffan, but they never sound as good!

[smash]

I think you've been driving cars with old outdated V8s Steffan

Duratec 3.0 V6 is 370lbs fully dressed without turbo, LS7 is 450lbs fully dressed - that's the grand total of 36kg difference.

LS7 505hp c/w 240hp for Duratec V6

V8's aren't all made from cast steel these days!

[Steffan]

smash said:

I think you've been driving cars with old outdated V8s Steffan

Duratec 3.0 V6 is 370lbs fully dressed without turbo, LS7 is 450lbs fully dressed - that's the grand total of 36kg difference.

LS7 505hp c/w 240hp for Duratec V6

V8's aren't all made from cast steel these days!

On paper you may be right. Most of the V8's I have driven have been alloy engines. My experience from driving many kit cars over the years including Westfields, Vindicators, Wildmoor, Robin Hood, Locost, Locust and a whole host of others, is that in reality there is a downside to big front engined rear drive cars.

I speak as I find. There are certain aspects of having a V8 kit car that are unique. The V8 howl and the unbelievable top gear flexibility are just two. I like V8 kit cars which is why I still have one, But for dry use only.

[Martyn-123]

Marcos (but not mine)

[petrol head ash]

I would look at an LS engine if thats the way you wanted to go, I would love a V8 seven just for the noise...

I visited RoadRunner Racing the other week and they had there LS1 powered seven sitting there looking awesome! I'm a big fan of the LS engines and would choose one over a Rover due to high tuning costs etc, the LS range offers big power engines for a reasonable amount,

I would consider using a L33.... 5.3l short stroke LS motor, with a bit of work could rev to 8000! perfect for a light weight car!

These are some pictures I took when the car was being build... A 50/50 weight distribution with an LS1





I heard that there was a good chance this car will be for sale at a good price

[fuoriserie]

You could consider a mid-engine setup for your V8 kitcar...

[Steffan]

TheLastPost said:

smash said:

... LS7 is 450lbs fully dressed - that's the grand total of 36kg difference.

Remember its a 'Seven' style car - the Westfield - we're talking about here. You should also be comparing with 4-cylinder engines, not 3 litre V6's... and even the heavier 4-cylinder engines like the Pinto and Cosworth are regarded by many as too heavy for a Seven.

The LS7's weight is pretty much exactly double that of the latest generation of 4-pots and more than enough to destroy the handling balance of such a lightweight car. Its effect on weight distribution is the equivalent of having a full-grown adult crouched in the nose of your car.

A power output of 500+ bhp is pretty much irrelevant if you can't deploy it, and even the manufacturer of the best developed Seven (Caterham) is unwilling to sanction the release of a car with more than 260bhp for road use, with the current state-of-the-art in tyres and damping.

The combination of such power/torque with such nose-heave weight distribution in such a light car will mean that you end up with something that flicks from power-off understeer to power-on oversteer like a light switch - that's basic physics.

Steffan is speaking absolute sense: by all means build a V8-engined car if you want something that will wuffle along on waves of torque making lovely noises (though that's not the raison d'etre of Sevens - they hardly make relaxed tourers), or to outdrag ricers away from the lights in a straight line, but don't expect it to be quick on the sorts of roads where Sevens should be in their element.

I entirely agree. A V8 and very high power is beyond the handling capacity of the Sevenesque cars. The oversteer in the wet is totally beyond control and safety concerns. I have lent my Dutton to many friends on trackdays and no one wants to drive it in the wet. It is inherently unsafe in those conditions. Completely unpredictable.

As Fuoriserie says later in the topic you could try a Mid engined V8. Clearly it would nor be a seven type car because the space required at the back would not be available in a Seven shape. I personally fancy an Audi Turbo based rear engine car reminiscent of a Porsche RSK. Now that could be a real flyer and look the part. But that is another story.

[smash]

Let's just refresh our minds about this quote

Steffan said:

.... they can replace the V8 on any kit car ....

Not sure when this quote got restricted to just 7's?

Are you really saying that a turbo - that's the comparison being made - coming on and off boost round the twisties would be more controllable than an N/A engine with flat torque curve?

I'm assuming this "fruity turbo duratec" (likely peaky) is making some sort of "magic" bhp and torque that doesn't break traction like the same amount of power and torque generated by a V8 engine which apparently is far less controllable?

We're ignoring the 50/50 weight distribution LS1 engined car post above are we then? If a duratec made the same power as that LS1 and had 50/50 distribution you really believe it would be more tractable?!

[Steffan]

TheLastPost said:

smash said:

We're ignoring the 50/50 weight distribution LS1 engined car post above are we then?

No, and I'm not disbelieving it, either, but common sense and experience (and the figures I've seen for SEights with a very similar engine weight) tell me that if it's correct, then it's most likely a figure with fuel and driver on board.

I've corner weighted Duratec engined 'Sevens' that come out at pretty much bang on 50/50 weight distribution without driver, and that's with an engine CoG the same distance ahead of the mid point of the wheelbase but about 90 kilos lighter The sums are pretty simple, and it's difficult to make 2+2=5.

Most 'Sevens' with sensible engines give a significant rearward weight bias (55-60% rear, typically), once you add driver and fuel.

Steffan said:

As Fuoriserie says later in the topic you could try a Mid engined V8.

Mid-engined certainly makes more sense on very lightweight V8 engined cars, but since the OP seems to be looking to buy something off-the-shelf, so to speak, I'm struggling to see many commonly available options beyond heavier Ultimas and maybe the odd GT40/Lola T70 replica, at much higher prices?

smash said:

If a duratec made the same power as that LS1 and had 50/50 distribution you really believe it would be more tractable?!

So here we are talking about shoehorning 500bhp+ engines into Sevens, again.

It is interesting to note that Caterham has taken the recent decision to de-tune the engine in the track only supercharged Duratec R600 from the 335bhp of the mid-engined SP/R300R to a more modest 275bhp (only 12bhp more than the nat. asp. R500).

I wonder why?

Perhaps they're not as skilled and knowledgeable as some contributors to this forum, when it comes to managing the dynamics of high performance 'Sevens'? We need to have a word with them, do you think?

...or perhaps it's that they recognise the current limits of this type of chassis?

You took the words right out of my mouth Especially the last paragraph and final line. Who can deny the approach of Caterham?

[firesafetydave]

chrisdurham said:

Hi guys looking at a potential purchase next year and fancy a v8 westy. Wot other kit options are there? I wudnt be looking for something show condition. But a decent useable example. Wot sort of price ranges would I be looking at etc

I have had a V8 westy for about 5 years now. I have had so much fun in it. It definitely teaches you to respect the power and I believe become a better driver. I have had 911's and Amg mercs and the westy definitely puts the biggest smile on your face.
It is a mildly tuned 4.3 with big valve heads, 4 barrell carb,cam,etc,etc. I believe it produces just under 300 bhp, but its the torque that's addictive.
It is fully stripped, so plastic seats,aero screen, no carpets, heater, wet weather gear etc.
It lives outside in all weathers with no cover. I can leave it for 3 or 4 months, get in it, turn the key and it will start.
If you are interested in having a look or a drive let me know. Any excuse to give it a thrashing!!
PS, it's also for sale.
Dave

[ajprice]

It's not off the shelf but you can get V8 conversions (Rover, Chevy LS or Lexus) for the Mazda MX5, and there are MX5 based kit cars and body conversions, so you could build a V8 converted MX5 kit...

[fuoriserie]

Here is an Exo mid-engine V8 Concept, the DP D2:

http://www.dpcars.net/

[chrisdurham]

just to conclude this thread guys, im now in posession of a certain 4.3 v8 westy :+)
so all is good - and i think i definately made the right choice with the V8