Weld in my own cage.
Discussion
Thought this would be best answered here.
I am converting my Williams clio to a circuit race car, owned the car 14years (last 6 in the garage needing an overhaul).
I have looked into getting a cage welded in and seen prices around the 1500 mark for MSA compliance. I do not know how to weld, however I would like to. I have had the idea that I could buy the cage for around 6-700 and then have the rest available for a welding course. Is anyone familiar with courses available and how much training I would need to be at a competent level?
I have found this 5 day course from Peta - http://www.emagister.co.uk/introduction_mig_weldin... at 750+vat will it teach me what I need?
I would be able to do all my own welding thereafter etc.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
I am converting my Williams clio to a circuit race car, owned the car 14years (last 6 in the garage needing an overhaul).
I have looked into getting a cage welded in and seen prices around the 1500 mark for MSA compliance. I do not know how to weld, however I would like to. I have had the idea that I could buy the cage for around 6-700 and then have the rest available for a welding course. Is anyone familiar with courses available and how much training I would need to be at a competent level?
I have found this 5 day course from Peta - http://www.emagister.co.uk/introduction_mig_weldin... at 750+vat will it teach me what I need?
I would be able to do all my own welding thereafter etc.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
5 days would barely scratch the surface!! 3/4 years might get you conpetent if you are welding every day these sort of courses bring the 18 yr old super mechanic too the workshops ,I am told that Not Very Qualified is the phrase . Ok I'm old school ,reactionary and probably a slow learner but 65 and still learning !!!
The time/money saving dont add up.
£1500 to get the cage done professionally.
£750 +VAT = £900 just for the course.
5 days lost in training.
Buy or Higher welding equipment to do own cage.
Take even more time to try & fit/weld it.
Use more material because you have to redo some.
This all adds up to more than £1500.
£1500 to get the cage done professionally.
£750 +VAT = £900 just for the course.
5 days lost in training.
Buy or Higher welding equipment to do own cage.
Take even more time to try & fit/weld it.
Use more material because you have to redo some.
This all adds up to more than £1500.
jeffw said:
As you tumble end over end you might regret using a life saving cage as your welding test piece after 5 days training.
This in a nut shell.Don't do this, welding to this level isn't something that can be learnt in a 5 day session, it will devalue the car due to as soon as anyone asks you who welded the cage in, they will walk away. I would...wouldn't you?
A decent cage will cost you roughly £500+VAT to purchase. It normally takes around the 30-40 hours depending on the complexity of the cage, and this is from someone that knows what they are doing. The tubes wont be notched exactly on each tube, and you will need all of the tools, welder, welding mask, angle grinder, air tools, clamps, hole saws, a hydraulic ram etc.
Plus ideally you would want to tig the cage in.
JontyR said:
jeffw said:
As you tumble end over end you might regret using a life saving cage as your welding test piece after 5 days training.
This in a nut shell.Learning to weld is a good thing to do. But learning to weld for 5 days then making a roll cage, one of if not THE most important welding you can do in motorsport seems a bit optimistic to me.
If you want a cage for anything other than aesthetics, ie; to provide stiffness and a protection, then your best bet is to buy the best you can afford, or pay to have the best job done that you can.
We build cages, chassis, deflection equipment, all safety critical stuff, and it never fails to amaze me how cheaply people think it can be done, and with what unsuitable materials people can try to specify.
Buy a decent cage and get a local competent welder to fit it for you. It's not a quick job, but you can help considerably - and get the price down - by doing things like stripping out the interior and prepping the areas. And choose someone with experience if you can find them chap.
We build cages, chassis, deflection equipment, all safety critical stuff, and it never fails to amaze me how cheaply people think it can be done, and with what unsuitable materials people can try to specify.
Buy a decent cage and get a local competent welder to fit it for you. It's not a quick job, but you can help considerably - and get the price down - by doing things like stripping out the interior and prepping the areas. And choose someone with experience if you can find them chap.
dreamshack said:
If you want a cage for anything other than aesthetics, ie; to provide stiffness and a protection, then your best bet is to buy the best you can afford, or pay to have the best job done that you can.
We build cages, chassis, deflection equipment, all safety critical stuff, and it never fails to amaze me how cheaply people think it can be done, and with what unsuitable materials people can try to specify.
Buy a decent cage and get a local competent welder to fit it for you. It's not a quick job, but you can help considerably - and get the price down - by doing things like stripping out the interior and prepping the areas. And choose someone with experience if you can find them chap.
What he said, you'd be amazed at what you can barter as well, do you have a local motor club.We build cages, chassis, deflection equipment, all safety critical stuff, and it never fails to amaze me how cheaply people think it can be done, and with what unsuitable materials people can try to specify.
Buy a decent cage and get a local competent welder to fit it for you. It's not a quick job, but you can help considerably - and get the price down - by doing things like stripping out the interior and prepping the areas. And choose someone with experience if you can find them chap.
You can learn welding in a one day course IMHO. It doesn't take years.
It does however require a degree of self policing.
In other words once you have done the weld you need to look at it and decide whether its penerated and how strong it is. Its no good doing a pretty surface weld or fill a weld with recurrent splatter and decide its good.
If you are prepared to objectively assess and be prepared to change and redo till its right then a one day course will do.
After all the only thing a one day course does is to teach you how to reduce the number of experimental cycles it takes before you get a strong weld. It doesn't teach you when its okay to sit back and admire your work.
It does however require a degree of self policing.
In other words once you have done the weld you need to look at it and decide whether its penerated and how strong it is. Its no good doing a pretty surface weld or fill a weld with recurrent splatter and decide its good.
If you are prepared to objectively assess and be prepared to change and redo till its right then a one day course will do.
After all the only thing a one day course does is to teach you how to reduce the number of experimental cycles it takes before you get a strong weld. It doesn't teach you when its okay to sit back and admire your work.
Unless you are doing really high level racing a decent bolt-in cage will probobly suffice, and give you enough protection, check the MSA rulebook for diagrams. They are letter coded, ie "K" or "L", and your class regs will specify a "cage to diagram K" for example. Remember too unless you are tuning the life out of your 150bhp Clio a 16-point bold in cage may look pretty but they weigh a lot more than a 6 point bolt in, and you will end up with a heavy uncompetitive car. In fact your chosen series may not allow super complicated cages which pick up on suspension points etc.
But as echo'ed above, I feel confident enough to weld up little brackets and the like, but no way on this earth would I weld anything structural on my cars, especially a rollcage!!!
Saying all that though, a proper weld-in cage does look cool as f***!!!
But as echo'ed above, I feel confident enough to weld up little brackets and the like, but no way on this earth would I weld anything structural on my cars, especially a rollcage!!!
Saying all that though, a proper weld-in cage does look cool as f***!!!
julian64 said:
You can learn welding in a one day course IMHO. It doesn't take years.
It does however require a degree of self policing.
In other words once you have done the weld you need to look at it and decide whether its penerated and how strong it is. Its no good doing a pretty surface weld or fill a weld with recurrent splatter and decide its good.
If you are prepared to objectively assess and be prepared to change and redo till its right then a one day course will do.
After all the only thing a one day course does is to teach you how to reduce the number of experimental cycles it takes before you get a strong weld. It doesn't teach you when its okay to sit back and admire your work.
The above depends greatly on many things what you will not have after a 1 day course is the experience to judge wat is a good weld and what is not ! I was self taught on mig mag and gas but some things I would take to a pro for peice of mind especialy saftey or construction It does however require a degree of self policing.
In other words once you have done the weld you need to look at it and decide whether its penerated and how strong it is. Its no good doing a pretty surface weld or fill a weld with recurrent splatter and decide its good.
If you are prepared to objectively assess and be prepared to change and redo till its right then a one day course will do.
After all the only thing a one day course does is to teach you how to reduce the number of experimental cycles it takes before you get a strong weld. It doesn't teach you when its okay to sit back and admire your work.
one eyed mick said:
julian64 said:
You can learn welding in a one day course IMHO. It doesn't take years.
It does however require a degree of self policing.
In other words once you have done the weld you need to look at it and decide whether its penerated and how strong it is. Its no good doing a pretty surface weld or fill a weld with recurrent splatter and decide its good.
If you are prepared to objectively assess and be prepared to change and redo till its right then a one day course will do.
After all the only thing a one day course does is to teach you how to reduce the number of experimental cycles it takes before you get a strong weld. It doesn't teach you when its okay to sit back and admire your work.
The above depends greatly on many things what you will not have after a 1 day course is the experience to judge wat is a good weld and what is not ! I was self taught on mig mag and gas but some things I would take to a pro for peice of mind especialy saftey or construction It does however require a degree of self policing.
In other words once you have done the weld you need to look at it and decide whether its penerated and how strong it is. Its no good doing a pretty surface weld or fill a weld with recurrent splatter and decide its good.
If you are prepared to objectively assess and be prepared to change and redo till its right then a one day course will do.
After all the only thing a one day course does is to teach you how to reduce the number of experimental cycles it takes before you get a strong weld. It doesn't teach you when its okay to sit back and admire your work.
. I take your point about the safety aspect, but at what point would you trust your safety to others.I could understand if they have access to xray analysis of their welds, but other than that if you trust their experience over your own, when would you ever trust your own. Even for simple things like changing the wheel nuts on your own car, its not the number of times you have done it in the past that saves you. Its the amount of attention you give it.
dreamshack said:
If you want a cage for anything other than aesthetics, ie; to provide stiffness and a protection, then your best bet is to buy the best you can afford, or pay to have the best job done that you can.
We build cages, chassis, deflection equipment, all safety critical stuff, and it never fails to amaze me how cheaply people think it can be done, and with what unsuitable materials people can try to specify.
Buy a decent cage and get a local competent welder to fit it for you. It's not a quick job, but you can help considerably - and get the price down - by doing things like stripping out the interior and prepping the areas. And choose someone with experience if you can find them chap.
Aesthetics aren't a concern.We build cages, chassis, deflection equipment, all safety critical stuff, and it never fails to amaze me how cheaply people think it can be done, and with what unsuitable materials people can try to specify.
Buy a decent cage and get a local competent welder to fit it for you. It's not a quick job, but you can help considerably - and get the price down - by doing things like stripping out the interior and prepping the areas. And choose someone with experience if you can find them chap.
In your experience Dreamshack, what kind of increase in stiffness does a cage provide and does weld-in vs bolt-in provide better safety performance? As its for a first season or 2, if they perform the same from a safety aspect, is the extra stiffness warranted seeing as I'll be new to it anyway?
Furyblade_Lee said:
Unless you are doing really high level racing a decent bolt-in cage will probobly suffice, and give you enough protection, check the MSA rulebook for diagrams. They are letter coded, ie "K" or "L", and your class regs will specify a "cage to diagram K" for example. Remember too unless you are tuning the life out of your 150bhp Clio a 16-point bold in cage may look pretty but they weigh a lot more than a 6 point bolt in, and you will end up with a heavy uncompetitive car. In fact your chosen series may not allow super complicated cages which pick up on suspension points etc.
Point taken, I was looking at a 6-point. The series doesn't allow attachment to suspension pick-ups.Gassing Station | Kit Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff