Newbie advice - what to buy?
Discussion
Hello all! A while back I went in my mates bike engined MK Indy and ever since I can't stop thinking about getting a Caterham style kit car. I've only just started doing a bit of research into Westfields / Caterhams / Locosts and was wondering what are my options with a budget of about 6k? I've spent the past year finishing my Capri project, while it's good fun I'm looking for something faster and better handling - incoming 'that won't be difficult to find' comments 
. So what would you recommend, more of a top-end Locost or a budget Westfield?
Cheers
. So what would you recommend, more of a top-end Locost or a budget Westfield? Cheers
Its all down to the build quality, what you like and spec:
A Caterham with top spec parts built by a ham fisted imbecile with no care for engineering, patience or pride wouldn't be as good to drive as a Locost built by someone who has fantastic attention to detail, technical know-how, a comprehensive workshop, patience ,precision and no wife.
Of course these are the two extremes, and most kit cars are somewhere in the middle, but you really have to inspect each vehicle thoroughly before handing over any of your hard earned cash.
I think the general consensus is to go with one that has a proven chassis, well built and you like.
A Caterham with top spec parts built by a ham fisted imbecile with no care for engineering, patience or pride wouldn't be as good to drive as a Locost built by someone who has fantastic attention to detail, technical know-how, a comprehensive workshop, patience ,precision and no wife.
Of course these are the two extremes, and most kit cars are somewhere in the middle, but you really have to inspect each vehicle thoroughly before handing over any of your hard earned cash.
I think the general consensus is to go with one that has a proven chassis, well built and you like.
slomax said:
Its all down to the build quality, what you like and spec:
A Caterham with top spec parts built by a ham fisted imbecile with no care for engineering, patience or pride wouldn't be as good to drive as a Locost built by someone who has fantastic attention to detail, technical know-how, a comprehensive workshop, patience ,precision and no wife.
While this is correct, it is worth remembering that Caterham do a post build check, and they will correct any build errors at that stage.A Caterham with top spec parts built by a ham fisted imbecile with no care for engineering, patience or pride wouldn't be as good to drive as a Locost built by someone who has fantastic attention to detail, technical know-how, a comprehensive workshop, patience ,precision and no wife.
As long as the stamp for PBC is in the log book, a buyer can be sure that the car was correct at one point.
The difference between a good builder and a ham fisted imbecile is the amount they pay Caterham to correct the faults.
I heard of a case where a builder had broken the A frame by not using the spacer washers, fortunately this was picked up before the car was driven on the road.
ColinM50 said:
Well since you so enjoyed your mate's MK Indy and it would fall within your budget................err ..........
Haha a good point but I'm put off by the fact he ended up replacing the gearbox on it about 3 times in the 18 months or so he owned it. Are some bike engines better or is this sort of thing to be expected as its heavier than a bike? Also I was only a passenger in my mates and that's my only experience in a Caterham-esque car so was wondering what the people who own these sorts of cars would recommend with my budget!one eyed mick said:
That is one of the probs with BEC the other being clutches, look for some thing with a car engine ,you may have to pay a little more but far better in my op Zetec ,Vaux red top even a good pintowould serve well
At the risk of staring the old argument...again!...If his mate knackered 3 'boxes in that time then I'd suspect either his scource of bowes was in question or his style of driving. I'm 5 years and 18000 miles into use of my R1 car and can't break it.
I was reading just yesterday though, about a red-top engined 7 that had put a rod through the side of the block and also knackered the gearbox... and the zetec engined car that had snapped a t-belt and knackered the head... and a BMW M3 powered one that had spun a main bearing...
Anything can be unreliable if it's not put together right, not looked after or you just get plain old unlucky.
OP, do a bit of research before choosing as some have known problems ('boxes on one of the older Blades (sorry don't know which model) or oil starvation on Blackbirds)and a bike engine should be fine.
AdiT said:
At the risk of staring the old argument...again!...
If his mate knackered 3 'boxes in that time then I'd suspect either his scource of bowes was in question or his style of driving. I'm 5 years and 18000 miles into use of my R1 car and can't break it.
I was reading just yesterday though, about a red-top engined 7 that had put a rod through the side of the block and also knackered the gearbox... and the zetec engined car that had snapped a t-belt and knackered the head... and a BMW M3 powered one that had spun a main bearing...
Anything can be unreliable if it's not put together right, not looked after or you just get plain old unlucky.
OP, do a bit of research before choosing as some have known problems ('boxes on one of the older Blades (sorry don't know which model) or oil starvation on Blackbirds)and a bike engine should be fine.
Anything can be broken , and by your statements you have had a lot of experience with BEC but I would still say a car engine is better for a new entrant to the kit car scene. Mutch as you say depends on parts sourcing and driving style / mechanical sympathy .I have no axe to grind against BEC at all and admit that if thats your scene go for it If his mate knackered 3 'boxes in that time then I'd suspect either his scource of bowes was in question or his style of driving. I'm 5 years and 18000 miles into use of my R1 car and can't break it.
I was reading just yesterday though, about a red-top engined 7 that had put a rod through the side of the block and also knackered the gearbox... and the zetec engined car that had snapped a t-belt and knackered the head... and a BMW M3 powered one that had spun a main bearing...
Anything can be unreliable if it's not put together right, not looked after or you just get plain old unlucky.
OP, do a bit of research before choosing as some have known problems ('boxes on one of the older Blades (sorry don't know which model) or oil starvation on Blackbirds)and a bike engine should be fine.
Not a bit fan of the 7esque style but here my pennies worth for what it is worth (having done quite a bit of research and ending up with a car engine Fury which ios basically a seven chassis with a nice body) -
Bike vs car engine - bike for thrills, track day and the occasional drive - car engine for road driving and the occasional track day. You need to spec what you want to do with the car.
General thoughts on different 7's - my opinion only so you will need to check out each by first web search and then visit show (Detling is the first of the year), get down to a couple of preferred ones and visit the factory (reason I bought from Mark Fisher !!!)
Raw Striker - small body, more distinctive shape, one of the best chassis, if you are careful within your budget
GBS Zero - newish design, much better than the old Robin Hoods, cheap starter packs, bottom of the pile cost wise but I would be tempted
Road Runner SR2 - MX5 based single donor kit, nice styling IMO, easy to build by all accounts, will need to stretch the budget slightly
GKD legend - BMW 3 series single donor, nice concept, range of engine from the 140hp four pot to the M3 6 pot, similar to RR SR2 in concept, more conservative styling
MK - you know about that one but the interesting one on this is the ability to swap the body later for a Healey style
Tiger Avon - similar to GBS Zero, locost derivative, good price kits often with deals, larger long established company, again like MK can add a Fury type body on after if you fancy a change
Caterham/Westfield - top end and probably out of your budget by a mile - look for second hand older westies, catern SH still way ouit of budget (start at £10k+)
MNR - interesting styling, more race orientated and may struggle to get within budget
There are also various Locost based kits that need more engineering skills but some are now MX5 based which make sourcing bits easier (Saturn, now called something else I think), one is also based on a folded steel sheet chassis which is interesting (TR Lane I think), and then there is the Quantum which is a folded stainless chassis and more challenging styling but a very good car by all accounts.
So, If I were in your position and wanted a bike engined car you wouldn't go to far wrong with a Raw Striker with a Foreblade engine. Probably the best chassis in the class and the small/light design fits well with the bike engine.
As for car engine - That's more difficult, really depends on your view of style and as the previous poster says, if it is well built and you choose the right bits then they are all going to be pretty good. I'd probably go for the SR2 as I like the styling, single donor package and the engines are quite tunable. Otherwise, a GB Zero with an ST170 engine with Chester Sports cars bike carb kit would be a good all rounder.
Remeber out of your budget you will need £500 to IVA and register it (without road tax) which starts to make you budget look pretty tight. An alternative is to look at prebuilt and then mod to your taste over time, classified on here and fleabay will give you a good idea as to what you can get for your money, early xflow seven go pretty cheap and can then be modded for your choice of engine/brakes/gearbox/diff etc. without the hassle of IVA etc.
Finally, if you like the 7 style but want something different then have a look at the Sylva J15 with an R1 engine or the Road Runner Sonic with a focus ST170 engine. If I were to buy now I'd look at the Sylva J16M which is due out in a few months as I like the 60's style body and the MGF single donor concept, if you like the shape and need a bike engine then the J16 (full body J15) with an R1 would be very good.
So, sorry for the ramble but that's my views, over to other to comment, agree, dissagree.
Bike vs car engine - bike for thrills, track day and the occasional drive - car engine for road driving and the occasional track day. You need to spec what you want to do with the car.
General thoughts on different 7's - my opinion only so you will need to check out each by first web search and then visit show (Detling is the first of the year), get down to a couple of preferred ones and visit the factory (reason I bought from Mark Fisher !!!)
Raw Striker - small body, more distinctive shape, one of the best chassis, if you are careful within your budget
GBS Zero - newish design, much better than the old Robin Hoods, cheap starter packs, bottom of the pile cost wise but I would be tempted
Road Runner SR2 - MX5 based single donor kit, nice styling IMO, easy to build by all accounts, will need to stretch the budget slightly
GKD legend - BMW 3 series single donor, nice concept, range of engine from the 140hp four pot to the M3 6 pot, similar to RR SR2 in concept, more conservative styling
MK - you know about that one but the interesting one on this is the ability to swap the body later for a Healey style
Tiger Avon - similar to GBS Zero, locost derivative, good price kits often with deals, larger long established company, again like MK can add a Fury type body on after if you fancy a change
Caterham/Westfield - top end and probably out of your budget by a mile - look for second hand older westies, catern SH still way ouit of budget (start at £10k+)
MNR - interesting styling, more race orientated and may struggle to get within budget
There are also various Locost based kits that need more engineering skills but some are now MX5 based which make sourcing bits easier (Saturn, now called something else I think), one is also based on a folded steel sheet chassis which is interesting (TR Lane I think), and then there is the Quantum which is a folded stainless chassis and more challenging styling but a very good car by all accounts.
So, If I were in your position and wanted a bike engined car you wouldn't go to far wrong with a Raw Striker with a Foreblade engine. Probably the best chassis in the class and the small/light design fits well with the bike engine.
As for car engine - That's more difficult, really depends on your view of style and as the previous poster says, if it is well built and you choose the right bits then they are all going to be pretty good. I'd probably go for the SR2 as I like the styling, single donor package and the engines are quite tunable. Otherwise, a GB Zero with an ST170 engine with Chester Sports cars bike carb kit would be a good all rounder.
Remeber out of your budget you will need £500 to IVA and register it (without road tax) which starts to make you budget look pretty tight. An alternative is to look at prebuilt and then mod to your taste over time, classified on here and fleabay will give you a good idea as to what you can get for your money, early xflow seven go pretty cheap and can then be modded for your choice of engine/brakes/gearbox/diff etc. without the hassle of IVA etc.
Finally, if you like the 7 style but want something different then have a look at the Sylva J15 with an R1 engine or the Road Runner Sonic with a focus ST170 engine. If I were to buy now I'd look at the Sylva J16M which is due out in a few months as I like the 60's style body and the MGF single donor concept, if you like the shape and need a bike engine then the J16 (full body J15) with an R1 would be very good.
So, sorry for the ramble but that's my views, over to other to comment, agree, dissagree.
Edited by ugg10 on Saturday 19th January 11:34
one eyed mick said:
Anything can be broken , and by your statements you have had a lot of experience with BEC but I would still say a car engine is better for a new entrant to the kit car scene. Mutch as you say depends on parts sourcing and driving style / mechanical sympathy .I have no axe to grind against BEC at all and admit that if thats your scene go for it
ugg10 said:
Not a bit fan of the 7esque style but here my pennies worth for what it is worth (having done quite a bit of research and ending up with a car engine Fury which ios basically a seven chassis with a nice body) -
Bike vs car engine - bike for thrills, track day and the occasional drive - car engine for road driving and the occasional track day. You need to spec what you want to do with the car.
General thoughts on different 7's - my opinion only so you will need to check out each by first web search and then visit show (Detling is the first of the year), get down to a couple of preferred ones and visit the factory (reason I bought from Mark Fisher !!!)
Raw Striker - small body, more distinctive shape, one of the best chassis, if you are careful within your budget
GBS Zero - newish design, much better than the old Robin Hoods, cheap starter packs, bottom of the pile cost wise but I would be tempted
Road Runner SR2 - MX5 based single donor kit, nice styling IMO, easy to build by all accounts, will need to stretch the budget slightly
GKD legend - BMW 3 series single donor, nice concept, range of engine from the 140hp four pot to the M3 6 pot, similar to RR SR2 in concept, more conservative styling
MK - you know about that one but the interesting one on this is the ability to swap the body later for a Healey style
Tiger Avon - similar to GBS Zero, locost derivative, good price kits often with deals, larger long established company, again like MK can add a Fury type body on after if you fancy a change
Caterham/Westfield - top end and probably out of your budget by a mile - look for second hand older westies, catern SH still way ouit of budget (start at £10k+)
MNR - interesting styling, more race orientated and may struggle to get within budget
There are also various Locost based kits that need more engineering skills but some are now MX5 based which make sourcing bits easier (Saturn, now called something else I think), one is also based on a folded steel sheet chassis which is interesting (TR Lane I think), and then there is the Quantum which is a folded stainless chassis and more challenging styling but a very good car by all accounts.
So, If I were in your position and wanted a bike engined car you wouldn't go to far wrong with a Raw Striker with a Foreblade engine. Probably the best chassis in the class and the small/light design fits well with the bike engine.
As for car engine - That's more difficult, really depends on your view of style and as the previous poster says, if it is well built and you choose the right bits then they are all going to be pretty good. I'd probably go for the SR2 as I like the styling, single donor package and the engines are quite tunable. Otherwise, a GB Zero with an ST170 engine with Chester Sports cars bike carb kit would be a good all rounder.
Remeber out of your budget you will need £500 to IVA and register it (without road tax) which starts to make you budget look pretty tight. An alternative is to look at prebuilt and then mod to your taste over time, classified on here and fleabay will give you a good idea as to what you can get for your money, early xflow seven go pretty cheap and can then be modded for your choice of engine/brakes/gearbox/diff etc. without the hassle of IVA etc.
Finally, if you like the 7 style but want something different then have a look at the Sylva J15 with an R1 engine or the Road Runner Sonic with a focus ST170 engine. If I were to buy now I'd look at the Sylva J16M which is due out in a few months as I like the 60's style body and the MGF single donor concept, if you like the shape and need a bike engine then the J16 (full body J15) with an R1 would be very good.
So, sorry for the ramble but that's my views, over to other to comment, agree, dissagree.
I'm thinking I will look for a car engined jobby then as it will be my firsy kit car and predominantly for road use with occasional track days to follow. Thanks for the run-down of kit cars by the way, I've had a good look at each of them but I'm still more inclined towards a 7-esque styled car, it got me looking at Tiger Avons:Bike vs car engine - bike for thrills, track day and the occasional drive - car engine for road driving and the occasional track day. You need to spec what you want to do with the car.
General thoughts on different 7's - my opinion only so you will need to check out each by first web search and then visit show (Detling is the first of the year), get down to a couple of preferred ones and visit the factory (reason I bought from Mark Fisher !!!)
Raw Striker - small body, more distinctive shape, one of the best chassis, if you are careful within your budget
GBS Zero - newish design, much better than the old Robin Hoods, cheap starter packs, bottom of the pile cost wise but I would be tempted
Road Runner SR2 - MX5 based single donor kit, nice styling IMO, easy to build by all accounts, will need to stretch the budget slightly
GKD legend - BMW 3 series single donor, nice concept, range of engine from the 140hp four pot to the M3 6 pot, similar to RR SR2 in concept, more conservative styling
MK - you know about that one but the interesting one on this is the ability to swap the body later for a Healey style
Tiger Avon - similar to GBS Zero, locost derivative, good price kits often with deals, larger long established company, again like MK can add a Fury type body on after if you fancy a change
Caterham/Westfield - top end and probably out of your budget by a mile - look for second hand older westies, catern SH still way ouit of budget (start at £10k+)
MNR - interesting styling, more race orientated and may struggle to get within budget
There are also various Locost based kits that need more engineering skills but some are now MX5 based which make sourcing bits easier (Saturn, now called something else I think), one is also based on a folded steel sheet chassis which is interesting (TR Lane I think), and then there is the Quantum which is a folded stainless chassis and more challenging styling but a very good car by all accounts.
So, If I were in your position and wanted a bike engined car you wouldn't go to far wrong with a Raw Striker with a Foreblade engine. Probably the best chassis in the class and the small/light design fits well with the bike engine.
As for car engine - That's more difficult, really depends on your view of style and as the previous poster says, if it is well built and you choose the right bits then they are all going to be pretty good. I'd probably go for the SR2 as I like the styling, single donor package and the engines are quite tunable. Otherwise, a GB Zero with an ST170 engine with Chester Sports cars bike carb kit would be a good all rounder.
Remeber out of your budget you will need £500 to IVA and register it (without road tax) which starts to make you budget look pretty tight. An alternative is to look at prebuilt and then mod to your taste over time, classified on here and fleabay will give you a good idea as to what you can get for your money, early xflow seven go pretty cheap and can then be modded for your choice of engine/brakes/gearbox/diff etc. without the hassle of IVA etc.
Finally, if you like the 7 style but want something different then have a look at the Sylva J15 with an R1 engine or the Road Runner Sonic with a focus ST170 engine. If I were to buy now I'd look at the Sylva J16M which is due out in a few months as I like the 60's style body and the MGF single donor concept, if you like the shape and need a bike engine then the J16 (full body J15) with an R1 would be very good.
So, sorry for the ramble but that's my views, over to other to comment, agree, dissagree.
Edited by ugg10 on Saturday 19th January 11:34
http://classifieds.pistonheads.com/classifieds/use... - something like this looks ideal to me, what do you reckon? I'm not looking to buy just yet as I need to do more research, think I'll get myself down to the Detling show whenever it is as it's not far from me!
Edited by Laser86 on Saturday 19th January 14:50
Edited by Laser86 on Saturday 19th January 14:51
That avon is really nice bearing in mind that there is something like £1700 of carb/ecu on it. Detling is 13/14 April - http://www.detlingkitcarshow.co.uk/
one eyed mick said:
AdiT said:
At the risk of staring the old argument...again!...
If his mate knackered 3 'boxes in that time then I'd suspect either his scource of bowes was in question or his style of driving. I'm 5 years and 18000 miles into use of my R1 car and can't break it.
I was reading just yesterday though, about a red-top engined 7 that had put a rod through the side of the block and also knackered the gearbox... and the zetec engined car that had snapped a t-belt and knackered the head... and a BMW M3 powered one that had spun a main bearing...
Anything can be unreliable if it's not put together right, not looked after or you just get plain old unlucky.
OP, do a bit of research before choosing as some have known problems ('boxes on one of the older Blades (sorry don't know which model) or oil starvation on Blackbirds)and a bike engine should be fine.
Anything can be broken , and by your statements you have had a lot of experience with BEC but I would still say a car engine is better for a new entrant to the kit car scene. Mutch as you say depends on parts sourcing and driving style / mechanical sympathy .I have no axe to grind against BEC at all and admit that if thats your scene go for it If his mate knackered 3 'boxes in that time then I'd suspect either his scource of bowes was in question or his style of driving. I'm 5 years and 18000 miles into use of my R1 car and can't break it.
I was reading just yesterday though, about a red-top engined 7 that had put a rod through the side of the block and also knackered the gearbox... and the zetec engined car that had snapped a t-belt and knackered the head... and a BMW M3 powered one that had spun a main bearing...
Anything can be unreliable if it's not put together right, not looked after or you just get plain old unlucky.
OP, do a bit of research before choosing as some have known problems ('boxes on one of the older Blades (sorry don't know which model) or oil starvation on Blackbirds)and a bike engine should be fine.
I have outside a Phoenix R1 with over 40K miles on it with its original gearbox. And I drive it like a joyrider, taken it twice to and from Monte Carlo through the Alps and countless trackdays and more recently competitive sprints. The gearbox shifts sweetly and a whatever is in that casing is a seriously clever piece of kit. Likewise my old Fireblade car in 2002, used a 25,000 miler donor engine and that is still going strong in 2013....
The BEC in question may have used the 900cc ZX9 engine for all we know which was a known entity for weak gearboxes? It like saying " My mate broke his second hand T5 gearbox in his Zetec Locost so dont ever use old Ford gearboxes ".
And I have 3 friends who have directly bought BEC's after letting them drive mine, and they still own them today and I am sure have not suffered and gearbox woes between them.
OP, if you want a BEC get one, but there are a few best avoided but you will get better unbiased answers on LocostBuilders of the BikeEnginedCars website where the real BEC knowledge is. Good luck and enjoy whether you go BEC or not! Car engine wise, take a look at the Roadrunner Racing MX5 based 7, I adore that car with its Mazda mechanicals. Supercharge it and you can have Caterham R400 power with monster torque for no a lot of money!
Edited by Furyblade_Lee on Sunday 20th January 09:56
Furyblade_Lee said:
OP, if you want a BEC get one, but there are a few best avoided but you will get better unbiased answers on LocostBuilders of the BikeEnginedCars website where the real BEC knowledge is. Good luck and enjoy whether you go BEC or not! Car engine wise, take a look at the Roadrunner Racing MX5 based 7, I adore that car with its Mazda mechanicals. Supercharge it and you can have Caterham R400 power with monster torque for no a lot of money!
Had a good look at the Roadrunner RS2 and I really like it! Looks like a well set up car from the pictures on their website and have heard that the MX5 running gear is near bullet-proof. Only problem is I can't find many for sale!Edited by Furyblade_Lee on Sunday 20th January 09:56
Cheers for everyone's advise so far!
If you like the SR2 but can't afford it the GBS Zero is now available in MX5 single donor, more conservative style but easier on the pocket. If you can pick up a V Spec or other Eunos import MX5 they come with a LSD and some come with lightened flywheel and sportier ratios, if you go down this route it's worth spending time looking into the best version and then seeking one out. I'd go for a eunos 1800 with LSD (torsen if you can find one) and short ratios.
I have had the complete opisite of Lee when it comes to BEC.
My car has had so many problems even coming from a so called factory build but there have been a couple of owners before me. I'm on my third engine within two years and within a thousand miles.
I'm getting to the point I'm afraid to drive the thing incase something else goes wrong with it, don't get me wrong when it's working there's nothing out there that I'll make me smile driving it. I've had to learn the hard way about what to look for in a BEC as up in Aberdeenshire there are no real specialists but Andy Bates from A B performance has been a god send.
If I do sell my car I would probably go for the MX5 based roadrunner too or even possibly a CEC Westfield.
My car has had so many problems even coming from a so called factory build but there have been a couple of owners before me. I'm on my third engine within two years and within a thousand miles.
I'm getting to the point I'm afraid to drive the thing incase something else goes wrong with it, don't get me wrong when it's working there's nothing out there that I'll make me smile driving it. I've had to learn the hard way about what to look for in a BEC as up in Aberdeenshire there are no real specialists but Andy Bates from A B performance has been a god send.
If I do sell my car I would probably go for the MX5 based roadrunner too or even possibly a CEC Westfield.
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