Is a 1990 Westfield chassis good enough ?

[Cayman48]

Hi all,

I might buy a very well track prepared Westfield with 255hp vauxhall engine, sequential gearbox and a lot of others extras...
Car is in UK and i'm from France, I should go see it on Wednesday.

The chassis is a "SE" from 1990, it has strengthened chassis points with extra brackets.

Despite the extra brackets, I can't answer myself that question : Am I missing a big difference compare to a recent chassis ?
I want a stiff car, no roll, stiff/rigid chassis and I'm afraid to go with a 1990 chassis.

- I know that over the time, Westfield upgraded the chassis :More rigid, less torsion, simply better...
- At the begining, this chassis is suppose to have 125bhp engine...
(If I listen to those 2 points it might be a first answer to my own question but I'd like a better point of view)

So will it be fine ? Will it be rigid enough ? Will it handle the extra power ?

Thanks for your time.

Cheers
Frederic

Edited by Cayman48 on Monday 23 June 15:23

[punkindrublic]

I had a 215 vauxhall in a 1992sei chassis.
Lotsof things broke!

The drive shafts werent up to it, the chassis wasnt up to it.
But....
If the car has been a competition car and someone has spent the time making it work i dont see a problem

[Cayman48]

I decided to buy the car and to move the engine and gearbox into a recent mk indy chassis.
It will be done at mk factory.

I will then sell the rolling chassis of the westfield ...

It´s gonna cost me a lot of money but I feel it´s the right way to go and I will get rid of live axle and drum brakes !

[punkindrublic]

Probably not a bad idea, but 255 it's going to be challenging for any seven chassis. you might find that there are some weak points in the mk chassis one you start pushing it.

[Cayman48]

I guess I will have to work on this.

I forgot to mention that if I'm going this way it's also beacause I'm very tall and the 1990 chassis isn't wide enough, neither long enough for me !
So in fact it's the main reason why I will go for a more recent chassis (wider and longer)

Nevertheless, MK's guys might be able to modify the existing chassis but it would be a one off job ! I am going to bring the car to them and we'll see.
I originally gave up with that idea because it's a pretty big thing to touch the chassis.


Did anybody already seen a modify chassis of a seven type (cut and reweld) ?

Edited by Cayman48 on Monday 30th June 07:33

[singlecoil]

I reckon the guys at MK will be well able to do whatever you require. The big questions are the cost (I get the impression this won't be a huge problem for you) and whether the bodywork will need replacing or serious modification and if so who will do that.

[Cayman48]

I know where I want to go in terms of money, I have a certain budget to modify the car but don't want to end up with twice the price of the car or even far below...
If I can make thit car confortable for me and my 6 foot 8 inches !!! (I know, I'm a crazy tall guy) it would be such a lovely car !!!
I sold my Lotus because it was too small for me....and it was a hell of a car ! (293bhp honda k20)

Fingers cross...

About the body, I'm ready to cut the panels however it will be needed. Won't be nice I know but at least I would have a car that is confortable for me. it's the most important thing. So body issues comes after...

Edited by Cayman48 on Monday 30th June 09:18

Edited by Cayman48 on Monday 30th June 09:19

[anonymous-user]

I've got 450bhp in a Sylva chassis, upgrade with extra stiffening across the engine bay, full cage with side impact, anti-role bars front and rear, and my own independent rear end, runs 6 pot calipers on the front, never had anything break on the chassis, done every thing else, prop shafts snapped, crown wheels stripped, half shafts snapped etc, car is regularly inspected to see if there are any cracked welds, but it has never been a problem, chassis was made for me as a one of by sylva (to take a zf box so the transmission tunnel is bigger than normal), if it a westfield supplied chassis with known welding quality I wouldn’t worry about it,

[Cayman48]

Interesting !

Thanks to all of you

[LLantrisant]

you are talking of a 255HP vauxhall engine....

do you have a prove that the engine really has this amount of power or near?

prove means: you have put the wessie yourselves on a dyno before taken out the engine?

sorry to be a bit sceptic...but majority of kitcars never achieve the power which has been claimed by their owners. a few examples:

x/flow engines with 135HP --> in reality they have 98 to 106
pinto engines with 150HP --> in reality they have 115
zetec´s with 180 to 200 --> in reality they have 125 to 140
3.5 rover V8´s with 200 --> in reality they have 150

[Cayman48]

It's race prepared by "Anderson race engine" I called the guy who recently rebuilt it and he told me " a little bit over 250bhp". I believe him.

[LLantrisant]

thats why i asked...i never believe the sellers, because the reality was always like mentioned in my posting before.

if the car was ever dynoed...and it definately needs to be dynoed for getting fueling / ignition / engine timing right there would be a dyno sheet existing.

no dyno sheet --> never dynoed --> less than expected power

[dmulally]

What's wrong with live axles?

I'd flog the snot out of it and then see how you feel.

[Cayman48]

dmulally said:

What's wrong with live axles?

I'd flog the snot out of it and then see how you feel.

What ??? Sorry I'm french and can't understand "I would flog the snot out of it"
Do you mean "let's try" ?

I've been researching a lot of informations about live axles, final point is that it's Ok on a track and don't need a lot of attention regarding setup, I found a guy on a forum who said this :
"For me the crucial thing will be whether or not you have the knowledge and/or inclination to set up your IRS correctly. I've gone with De-dion because it gives 99% of the potential performance of IRS straight out of the box whereas IRS will require considerable fettling on a 4-wheel alignment jig to reach even 90% of its potential."

Bad point is on bumpy road but I don't care as it will be a 90% track car...except for the nurburgring which is a bumpy track ...



To LLantrisant >>> I understand your point of view and agree with you. But here it's an experienced man and a specialist in rebuilding those engines. And even if it's not 250 but 230 or even 220 it's going to be fast, very fast.

[Megaflow]

LLantrisant said:

you are talking of a 255HP vauxhall engine....

do you have a prove that the engine really has this amount of power or near?

prove means: you have put the wessie yourselves on a dyno before taken out the engine?

sorry to be a bit sceptic...but majority of kitcars never achieve the power which has been claimed by their owners. a few examples:

x/flow engines with 135HP --> in reality they have 98 to 106
pinto engines with 150HP --> in reality they have 115
zetec´s with 180 to 200 --> in reality they have 125 to 140
3.5 rover V8´s with 200 --> in reality they have 150

Your hanging around with the wrong people.

A 1600 x/flow makes 84bhp as standard, a pair of twin carbs and a cam will easily see 110-120, head and other work it will go a lot further.
A 2000 pinto makes 99bhp as standard, a pair of twin carbs and a cam will easily see 120-130, head and other work it will go a lot further.
A 130PS 1800 or a 2000 Zetec with twin carbs or TB's is proven to be 150-160 straight out the box.

The redtop vauxhall has been well proven of being easily capable of 250+bhp.

[LLantrisant]

exactly such a calculation is wrong:

"stick in a cam and a pair of weber´s and you have xxx horsepower"

this is what the majority of people think and what all tuning-catalogues promise you.

the reality is absolutely different!!

even the best cam wont give you the promised horsepower, nor any weber-carbs on their own.

everything needs to be set-up correctly and well-matched. a proper gas-flow job of a head will cost you 500-800pound.....

what do the majority of enginebuilders do? they do some porting and mostly create less flow than before...this list can go endless....and finally you have a engine which should have 200HP and ends on the rollers with 130HP....

e.g. weber alpha engine management kits:

3D distributorless ignition and a set of weber carbs.

i owned 2 cars (one with 2l vauxhall xe, one with zetec) where those kits had been fitted.

the weber´s had been jetted far out the range, which you should jet them for those engines.
the ignition-mapping was totally wrong...the engines didnt run well, lack of power, cut-outs etc...

and its exactly the same with other "tuning" companies...they promise a lot..but the reality is different.

Edited by LLantrisant on Friday 18th July 01:01

[Megaflow]

Everything has to be set up correctly, that's a given...

Working within the tolerances of the engine, and associated components, if you fit the parts I said to the above engines you should get some where near the power figures.

I had a 130ps Zetec, totally standard internally, fitted with TB's and a decent exhaust made 155bhp on known and trusted rollers. Are you saying it didn't?

[dmulally]

Cayman48 said:

dmulally said:

What's wrong with live axles?

I'd flog the snot out of it and then see how you feel.

What ??? Sorry I'm french and can't understand "I would flog the snot out of it"
Do you mean "let's try" ?

I've been researching a lot of informations about live axles, final point is that it's Ok on a track and don't need a lot of attention regarding setup, I found a guy on a forum who said this :
"For me the crucial thing will be whether or not you have the knowledge and/or inclination to set up your IRS correctly. I've gone with De-dion because it gives 99% of the potential performance of IRS straight out of the box whereas IRS will require considerable fettling on a 4-wheel alignment jig to reach even 90% of its potential."

Bad point is on bumpy road but I don't care as it will be a 90% track car...except for the nurburgring which is a bumpy track ...



I'm sorry. What I meant to say is bring it home and drive it on the racing track as it is. There is more speed to be found in the driver and the tyres than the diff in my opinion. My old 7 had a live axle and was setup for the racing track and was awful on the road. I would just back the shock damper settings off until it felt a little more comfortable.

So anyway as I was suggesting, I would drive it as it is until you feel like you need to be going faster. That way you can really push it and not worry about breaking things because you can change it later anyway.

I hope this makes sense. I'm Australian and I have no idea what is and isn't English anymore.
To LLantrisant >>> I understand your point of view and agree with you. But here it's an experienced man and a specialist in rebuilding those engines. And even if it's not 250 but 230 or even 220 it's going to be fast, very fast.

[Cayman48]

dmulally said:

I'm sorry. What I meant to say is bring it home and drive it on the racing track as it is. There is more speed to be found in the driver and the tyres than the diff in my opinion. My old 7 had a live axle and was setup for the racing track and was awful on the road. I would just back the shock damper settings off until it felt a little more comfortable.

So anyway as I was suggesting, I would drive it as it is until you feel like you need to be going faster. That way you can really push it and not worry about breaking things because you can change it later anyway.

I agree, it's why I bought the car, I hope it's going to be fast and feels good.
My Lotus felt so tight (rigid) on the track, it was fantastic, hope it will be the same but I'm a little bit sceptic