Bike Engined Kit Cars?
Discussion
Ladies, Gents,
I am potentially interested in seeing the car attached in link below:
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/k...
I have owned a Kit Car before (Tiger Super 6 - with a 1.8L Zetec Engine), but never a bike engine car. I have researched on the web general opinions and as expected, opinions vary massively, so I am a little undecided.
Any hints on this particular example (link above)? For me - the main purpose is a weekend toy and not for use on tracks.
One question that has bugged me for some time: Why do all Bike Engined Kit Cars never have a wind screen? Is there a technical reason for this?
Whilst I love the purity for such cars, driving around with a crash helmet is one step too far for road use.
I assume there no reasons why the this car cannot be converted to take a windscreen?
Any comments / opinions welcome!
Regards
Fadi
I am potentially interested in seeing the car attached in link below:
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/k...
I have owned a Kit Car before (Tiger Super 6 - with a 1.8L Zetec Engine), but never a bike engine car. I have researched on the web general opinions and as expected, opinions vary massively, so I am a little undecided.
Any hints on this particular example (link above)? For me - the main purpose is a weekend toy and not for use on tracks.
One question that has bugged me for some time: Why do all Bike Engined Kit Cars never have a wind screen? Is there a technical reason for this?
Whilst I love the purity for such cars, driving around with a crash helmet is one step too far for road use.
I assume there no reasons why the this car cannot be converted to take a windscreen?
Any comments / opinions welcome!
Regards
Fadi
As stated a BEC is more track focused
What most BEC supporters don't mention is torque output, generally lower the a CEC, you would have to install the larger (1200cc+) engines to get CEC levels of torque.
BEC's are lighter due to the small lightweight engine gearbox combination, add a passenger and performance drops noticably.
Now to my view on the windscreen question, it is in effect a wind brake, you will need torque to overcome it, I suspect it would be the equivelant of running with a passenger all the time.
What most BEC supporters don't mention is torque output, generally lower the a CEC, you would have to install the larger (1200cc+) engines to get CEC levels of torque.
BEC's are lighter due to the small lightweight engine gearbox combination, add a passenger and performance drops noticably.
Now to my view on the windscreen question, it is in effect a wind brake, you will need torque to overcome it, I suspect it would be the equivelant of running with a passenger all the time.
In my limited Seven experience (fair bit of passengering...) you need side screens with the full screen
So deleting the screen is a big weight-saver
No screen means no wipers/motor/linkage/pump and bottle, and no side screens
Wasn't there an old Caterham price list that showed options by weight as well as cost? That may help give an indication...
So deleting the screen is a big weight-saver
No screen means no wipers/motor/linkage/pump and bottle, and no side screens
Wasn't there an old Caterham price list that showed options by weight as well as cost? That may help give an indication...
You may be better off looking for a more free reving CEC, a Honda S2000 (8900rpm redline) powered car or possable Toyota 1600AGE (7600rpm redline) would give the scream and be able to cope with the weight of the comfort levels you want.
Or you may be better off looking ata different body shape to provide more element protection, Fisher Fury or something more enclosed?
Also consider that a bike alternator has a lot lower load capability so in terms of electrical items you may want to run that may be a factor.
That car looks too strong money for a Stuart Taylor IMO
Furyblade_Lee has a helluva lot of BEC miles including european touring under his belt so a worthwhile opinion to seek. The BEC question has been asked a lot so maybe worth asearch for previous threads.
Good Luck in your search
EDIT: I had aero screens on my 7 and never felt the need to wear a crash hat, just decent wrap around shades - it was perfect for blatting around, short trips. I admit I fitted full screen to do the run to Le Mans Classic tho.
Or you may be better off looking ata different body shape to provide more element protection, Fisher Fury or something more enclosed?
Also consider that a bike alternator has a lot lower load capability so in terms of electrical items you may want to run that may be a factor.
That car looks too strong money for a Stuart Taylor IMO
Furyblade_Lee has a helluva lot of BEC miles including european touring under his belt so a worthwhile opinion to seek. The BEC question has been asked a lot so maybe worth asearch for previous threads.
Good Luck in your search
EDIT: I had aero screens on my 7 and never felt the need to wear a crash hat, just decent wrap around shades - it was perfect for blatting around, short trips. I admit I fitted full screen to do the run to Le Mans Classic tho.
Edited by headrush on Wednesday 3rd June 13:32
As stated a BEC is more track focused
What most BEC supporters don't mention is torque output, generally lower the a CEC, you would have to install the larger (1200cc+) engines to get CEC levels of torque.
BEC's are lighter due to the small lightweight engine gearbox combination, add a passenger and performance drops noticably.
Now to my view on the windscreen question, it is in effect a wind brake, you will need torque to overcome it, I suspect it would be the equivelant of running with a passenger all the time.
What most BEC supporters don't mention is torque output, generally lower the a CEC, you would have to install the larger (1200cc+) engines to get CEC levels of torque.
BEC's are lighter due to the small lightweight engine gearbox combination, add a passenger and performance drops noticably.
Now to my view on the windscreen question, it is in effect a wind brake, you will need torque to overcome it, I suspect it would be the equivelant of running with a passenger all the time.
I've done approaching 19000miles on road in my R1-powered Fury over the last five years; couple of hundred miles in a day, no problem - I do it often.
Such things aren't exactly casual driving toys, they are quite intense and demanding on your concentration, occasionally physically tiring - and therefore a pure pleasure if you 'get it'. A double espresso, not a latte if you like.
Screens are aero brakes hence most do without - makes a notable difference on Sevens above 60mph because they have appalling drag for such a small car. It's a track thing that has migrated across, that's all. Sure you can get over it with more power, but very light cars are about so much more than simply straight-line stomp - it's the incredible purity of balance and feedback that makes corners more fun (at any speed).
Anyway - the Fury has rather better aero design than any Seven and with very small deflector, it is only really one's face that gets some buffeting (or wet if it rains). I use it all year round, with eye and ear protection and generally only carry a helmet if I'm expecting a motorway hop (for stone protection more than anything else) Bees to the face smart a bit over 50mph, otherwise I've yet to get hit by any anything that marked let alone drew blood.
BECs are best one-up simply because 1, my corner weighting is set-up that way
and 2. for a passenger, without the kinaesthetic engagement of punting it along BECs can prove a raw experience - tiring and not comfy for long.
Other than that - I bought the Fury after I'd been looking for the 'right' Seven for nearly 18months but this was 'aha'! moment: the right car beautifully set up, and with the low, low weight and bike engine pushed the minimal theme I was after to its logical extreme. The car, fuelled, with me in it is under 510kg - less than most Caterhams alone). Reliability has been great - pretty complete history in my garage /profile - and I haven't driven anything that's given me anything like such satisfaction overall
Such things aren't exactly casual driving toys, they are quite intense and demanding on your concentration, occasionally physically tiring - and therefore a pure pleasure if you 'get it'. A double espresso, not a latte if you like.
Screens are aero brakes hence most do without - makes a notable difference on Sevens above 60mph because they have appalling drag for such a small car. It's a track thing that has migrated across, that's all. Sure you can get over it with more power, but very light cars are about so much more than simply straight-line stomp - it's the incredible purity of balance and feedback that makes corners more fun (at any speed).
Anyway - the Fury has rather better aero design than any Seven and with very small deflector, it is only really one's face that gets some buffeting (or wet if it rains). I use it all year round, with eye and ear protection and generally only carry a helmet if I'm expecting a motorway hop (for stone protection more than anything else) Bees to the face smart a bit over 50mph, otherwise I've yet to get hit by any anything that marked let alone drew blood.
BECs are best one-up simply because 1, my corner weighting is set-up that way
and 2. for a passenger, without the kinaesthetic engagement of punting it along BECs can prove a raw experience - tiring and not comfy for long. Other than that - I bought the Fury after I'd been looking for the 'right' Seven for nearly 18months but this was 'aha'! moment: the right car beautifully set up, and with the low, low weight and bike engine pushed the minimal theme I was after to its logical extreme. The car, fuelled, with me in it is under 510kg - less than most Caterhams alone). Reliability has been great - pretty complete history in my garage /profile - and I haven't driven anything that's given me anything like such satisfaction overall
Edited by Huff on Wednesday 3rd June 17:31
I might be uniquely qualified to comment here, as I have a ZX12 powered Stuart Taylor. They are cracking cars - the chassis is well regarded as one of the most capable variants, particularly if lap times are important to you. Aries bought the rights from Stuart Taylor, and offer brilliant customer service should you require any parts in the future.
Mine has no windscreen as it is extra weight and complexity with wipers etc, that I am happy not to have. The helmet is not to protect in the event of a crash (although I would hope it would help!), it is to protect against stones and bees! I carry a pair of safety specs for my passengers, or if I fancy more noise and the wind in my hair. To be honest, taking it out is always an event, so donning a helmet is not a negative for me - it is all part of the experience.
The myth about low torque is not valid. Remember a bike gearbox has a 2x reduction at the take off, so effectively that torque value is doubled (minus some) at the wheels. On a large engine like the ZX12, you have bags of torque - mine will happily pull from 30 in 6th. You will note a drop in go when you have a passenger on board, but I still managed 4.0s to 60 with two up and 3.7ish on my own.
I hope this helps your decision. Do it, you wont regret moving to the dark side!
Mine has no windscreen as it is extra weight and complexity with wipers etc, that I am happy not to have. The helmet is not to protect in the event of a crash (although I would hope it would help!), it is to protect against stones and bees! I carry a pair of safety specs for my passengers, or if I fancy more noise and the wind in my hair. To be honest, taking it out is always an event, so donning a helmet is not a negative for me - it is all part of the experience.
The myth about low torque is not valid. Remember a bike gearbox has a 2x reduction at the take off, so effectively that torque value is doubled (minus some) at the wheels. On a large engine like the ZX12, you have bags of torque - mine will happily pull from 30 in 6th. You will note a drop in go when you have a passenger on board, but I still managed 4.0s to 60 with two up and 3.7ish on my own.
I hope this helps your decision. Do it, you wont regret moving to the dark side!
fsulaim2 said:
Ladies, Gents,
I am potentially interested in seeing the car attached in link below:
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/k...
Fadi
Or just buy this: http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/k...I am potentially interested in seeing the car attached in link below:
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/k...
Fadi
310bhp at rear wheels - I can't begin to imagine how utterly insane that thing must be!!
Edited by headrush on Wednesday 3rd June 20:40
Over 7 years for me in a Fisher Fury R1. Used 95% of the time on the road. Lack of reverse has been an issue just once but the car is so light, you can get out and push. I've got a tall aeroscreen, so no helmet required but I wear glasses. Ear plugs are required due to open air filter and induction roar but I wouldn't have it any other way.
The main thing you get with a 450Kg car is just amazing driver involvement and superb handling. It feels like the centre of gravity is through the wheel centres, so it doesn't really lean into corners. Acceleration and braking are awesome too :-) Not driven anything else that could replace it yet. Would have to go even lighter next time.
Rob
The main thing you get with a 450Kg car is just amazing driver involvement and superb handling. It feels like the centre of gravity is through the wheel centres, so it doesn't really lean into corners. Acceleration and braking are awesome too :-) Not driven anything else that could replace it yet. Would have to go even lighter next time.
Rob
Gents,
Many thanks for your responses and good feedback.
I got an insurance quote today for this car. Fully comprehensive with 0% no claim: £192!! Amazing. I step close to making my mind up.
I do have couple/few more questions.
1) Does anyone have experience of fitting a windscreen on such cars? I am not too worried about fitting the windscreen, but wondered how tricky it is to package the wiper mechanism (I assume it is a 'dashboard' out job?)
2) Also - Can some one also explain to me how the reverse motor works on such cars? I am not sure if this has one, but is this normally linked to the throttle? (So when you select 'Reverse' you control reversing in the normal way?)
Final question...
3) With such BECs - are they usually chain driven (gearbox to the prop shaft by a chain?) IF so, are there alternatives with advantages / disadvantages?
Sorry for question. It is just that this car is 150 miles away and I do not want to commit to the trip until I am convinced about BEC's!
:-)
Many thanks for your responses and good feedback.
I got an insurance quote today for this car. Fully comprehensive with 0% no claim: £192!! Amazing. I step close to making my mind up.
I do have couple/few more questions.
1) Does anyone have experience of fitting a windscreen on such cars? I am not too worried about fitting the windscreen, but wondered how tricky it is to package the wiper mechanism (I assume it is a 'dashboard' out job?)
2) Also - Can some one also explain to me how the reverse motor works on such cars? I am not sure if this has one, but is this normally linked to the throttle? (So when you select 'Reverse' you control reversing in the normal way?)
Final question...
3) With such BECs - are they usually chain driven (gearbox to the prop shaft by a chain?) IF so, are there alternatives with advantages / disadvantages?
Sorry for question. It is just that this car is 150 miles away and I do not want to commit to the trip until I am convinced about BEC's!
:-)
BEC reverse boxes are usually a small, separate in-line gearbox, giving you a second small gear lever to engage reverse gear rather as you would in any other car. Reverser 'boxes all have their own problems in terms of staying together/not loosing oil/ sapping power. Alternatively there are electric arrangements possible based on geared (VW or BMW) car starter motors clunked into place to directly-drive sprokets on the diff nose. These are rarely happy arrangements either.
My Fury has no reverse, and in five years I've never missed having one. Easy to plan ahead, and at 427Kg, just easy to push it backwards on your own if required - even up 1:10 slopes for small distances.
My Fury has no reverse, and in five years I've never missed having one. Easy to plan ahead, and at 427Kg, just easy to push it backwards on your own if required - even up 1:10 slopes for small distances.
wibb20 said:
The myth about low torque is not valid. Remember a bike gearbox has a 2x reduction at the take off, so effectively that torque value is doubled (minus some) at the wheels. On a large engine like the ZX12, you have bags of torque - mine will happily pull from 30 in 6th.
Quoted because this is true. My (998cc) R1 has 1.58x primary reduction; and 3.44 FD. 'Just' 82-84lb-ft at the crank is enough to let it trickle cleanly up Wraxall hill - which reaches 1:7 - at 25mph and pull away cleanly - in 6th. 'BECs have no torque' is a myth perpetuated by people who don't understand what gearing is for, when to use the shifter, in sum that it is power output that matters - never 'torque'.
And with the flywheel inertia of a spinning penny, there's zero penalty for keeping the bike engine running fast, even when lightly loaded /all the time - it is simply nothing like having to thrash some car lump up past 5K. Keeping it on the boil is all part of the fun!
Edited by Huff on Saturday 6th June 00:06
I have since learned it does not have a reverse gear. For me - I must have one as I do want the flexibility - especially on the road.
Does anyone have any experience of fitting a reverse mechanism? IS it complex / expensive?
My plan to go and see the car next weekend. Excited - but a little apprehensive as it the most machine I have ever owned or drive.
I have owned a Mitsubishi Evo6 and a Tiger Super 6 (before marriage & kids!)- but to be honest, this one is clearly set up for racing.
I do need to tame it a little for the road.
:-)
Does anyone have any experience of fitting a reverse mechanism? IS it complex / expensive?
My plan to go and see the car next weekend. Excited - but a little apprehensive as it the most machine I have ever owned or drive.
I have owned a Mitsubishi Evo6 and a Tiger Super 6 (before marriage & kids!)- but to be honest, this one is clearly set up for racing.
I do need to tame it a little for the road.
:-)
You have 2 issues identified.
1) How difficult to fit a windscreen.
Well you'll need to take the scuttle off, probably, not just the dash. You'll then have to install a mini wiper motor and the associated linkage. You'll then have to tap into the loom and stalk switches and probably fit a relay. So a fair amount of wiring. Then fit a windscreen assembly - which isn't cheap.
2) Reverse gearbox.
- Buy one
- take engine and gearbox out.
- Fit reverse box onto the end of the gearbox.
- Take out the centre consol covering.
- Buy a new shorter propshoaft.
- Fit the reverse box lever through the console covering and re-fit everything.
Easier to push it backwards.
Easier to buy a different one.
Here's a suggestion. Write down what you want in your fun car. Do a search for something that meets your requirements, Buy it.
1) How difficult to fit a windscreen.
Well you'll need to take the scuttle off, probably, not just the dash. You'll then have to install a mini wiper motor and the associated linkage. You'll then have to tap into the loom and stalk switches and probably fit a relay. So a fair amount of wiring. Then fit a windscreen assembly - which isn't cheap.
2) Reverse gearbox.
- Buy one
- take engine and gearbox out.
- Fit reverse box onto the end of the gearbox.
- Take out the centre consol covering.
- Buy a new shorter propshoaft.
- Fit the reverse box lever through the console covering and re-fit everything.
Easier to push it backwards.
Easier to buy a different one.
Here's a suggestion. Write down what you want in your fun car. Do a search for something that meets your requirements, Buy it.
Thanks for this.
Any idea on cost?
Any idea on cost?
emwmarine said:
You have 2 issues identified.
1) How difficult to fit a windscreen.
Well you'll need to take the scuttle off, probably, not just the dash. You'll then have to install a mini wiper motor and the associated linkage. You'll then have to tap into the loom and stalk switches and probably fit a relay. So a fair amount of wiring. Then fit a windscreen assembly - which isn't cheap.
2) Reverse gearbox.
- Buy one
- take engine and gearbox out.
- Fit reverse box onto the end of the gearbox.
- Take out the centre consol covering.
- Buy a new shorter propshoaft.
- Fit the reverse box lever through the console covering and re-fit everything.
Easier to push it backwards.
Easier to buy a different one.
Here's a suggestion. Write down what you want in your fun car. Do a search for something that meets your requirements, Buy it.
1) How difficult to fit a windscreen.
Well you'll need to take the scuttle off, probably, not just the dash. You'll then have to install a mini wiper motor and the associated linkage. You'll then have to tap into the loom and stalk switches and probably fit a relay. So a fair amount of wiring. Then fit a windscreen assembly - which isn't cheap.
2) Reverse gearbox.
- Buy one
- take engine and gearbox out.
- Fit reverse box onto the end of the gearbox.
- Take out the centre consol covering.
- Buy a new shorter propshoaft.
- Fit the reverse box lever through the console covering and re-fit everything.
Easier to push it backwards.
Easier to buy a different one.
Here's a suggestion. Write down what you want in your fun car. Do a search for something that meets your requirements, Buy it.
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