Lots of ideas for kit cars
Discussion
I keep getting ideas for kit cars - mainly replicas or adaptable projects with modular bodywork and the like. However, I have one or two problems:
-I'm a penniless student with no real technical knowledge and no access to kit car development companies.
-I have no idea whether anyone would actually like to buy or drive them, they're just ideas.
I've been into kit cars since I started buying the mags when I was 18 and it seems like the best way to realise any automotive dreams you may have, but what do you do if you're full of ideas? Anyone know?
Just to give you some idea, I've currently got two 'projects' in my mind - the modular-bodied 'Group C' one I've detailed before, and an Aston Martin DB6 Volante replica based on the E30 BMW 3-series that would allow for a well-priced alternative to the mid-range Cobra market with a bit of class.
Anyone know who I'd go to with my ideas, and what I'd need to present them with for it to be considered at all?
-I'm a penniless student with no real technical knowledge and no access to kit car development companies.
-I have no idea whether anyone would actually like to buy or drive them, they're just ideas.
I've been into kit cars since I started buying the mags when I was 18 and it seems like the best way to realise any automotive dreams you may have, but what do you do if you're full of ideas? Anyone know?
Just to give you some idea, I've currently got two 'projects' in my mind - the modular-bodied 'Group C' one I've detailed before, and an Aston Martin DB6 Volante replica based on the E30 BMW 3-series that would allow for a well-priced alternative to the mid-range Cobra market with a bit of class.
Anyone know who I'd go to with my ideas, and what I'd need to present them with for it to be considered at all?
Twincam16 said:
If you've got what it takes it'll happen. If not it'll always be dreams.
That's a bit enigmatic - what exactly is 'what it takes'?
If only I knew the answer!! Blokes like Barnes Wallis, Frank Whittle etc who just knew what was what & somehow made it happen.
Well we're not really talking the bouncing bomb or the jet engine here, just access to chassis engineers, fibreglass moulds, some old cars and some money.
I suppose what I'm asking is does anyone know of any kit car companies that are more receptive than others when it comes to ideas from enthusiasts?
I suppose what I'm asking is does anyone know of any kit car companies that are more receptive than others when it comes to ideas from enthusiasts?
Does your university have a formula student team? If so you will learn the practical aspect to everything you've just talked about and if you were keen you coul even learn a lot of the theory behind it. I'm exactly the same, knew nothing but keen to learn. I'm no expect in any of the areas but would be able to have a good crack at anything. A lot of it is just having someone showing you a way of doing something. If you don't like it then fine, do it your own way, but at least you'll get an idea.
As for my projects I'm currently building a kit car back home (Lotus 7 stylee). I would like to build a one off one day. The optins are either a road legal single seater (which I think wouldn't be that hard) from a butchered Jedi or something or...... a mid engined space framed car with an old Volvo 850 estate body. In that horrible dark brown you used to be able to get. With crap wheels. Now that'd be a fun car!
As for my projects I'm currently building a kit car back home (Lotus 7 stylee). I would like to build a one off one day. The optins are either a road legal single seater (which I think wouldn't be that hard) from a butchered Jedi or something or...... a mid engined space framed car with an old Volvo 850 estate body. In that horrible dark brown you used to be able to get. With crap wheels. Now that'd be a fun car!
Well not really - we don't have a formula student team and seeing as though I'm a month away from graduation I wouldn't be able to get involved anyway.
I'll run through what I had in mind:
DB6 Volante:
Based on the E30 3-series because it's a common, reliable RWD car that's under-used as a donor and good to drive. It could be incorporated into a kit car the Banham way by cutting down the bodywork, welding in a new subframe (superleggera style
) and plonking the new body on top.
The DB6 Volante was chosen because it's the simplest, easiest to cast of the classic DB shapes without the complex curvature of the 4/5, plus it doesn't have a roof. The BMWs headlights could be set, one into each fairing, one either side of the grille, all other light clusters re-wired into the Triumph items as found on the original. The DB6's dashboard is a fairly simple shape that could be moulded as an extension of the bodywork's fibreglass. The BMW floorplan would, of course, be unchanged. Re-fit leather seats and carpets and hey presto - done.
Group C:
This would be more complex. Basically it would be based around an Ultima-style tubular chassis with a central tub complete with 'goldfish bowl' windscreen and scissor-doors in the style of a Group C car of the '80s. The chassis would be accommodating enough for a whole variety of engines and gearboxes a la Minotaur.
But the front and rear sections would be interchangeable. Seeing as though the Group C's all had the same shaped centre section, it would be easy to replicate all the various Group C cars. To change, you'd simply unclip them (would make servicing a doddle too) and fit some others.
Also, they'd be issued in the usual white-finish GRP and be supplied with a selection of replica Group C racing livery decals, which would not only cut down on painting costs, but would give a real 'race car' look.
Well I think they've both got potential. Anyone willing to point me in the right direction?
I'll run through what I had in mind:
DB6 Volante:
Based on the E30 3-series because it's a common, reliable RWD car that's under-used as a donor and good to drive. It could be incorporated into a kit car the Banham way by cutting down the bodywork, welding in a new subframe (superleggera style
) and plonking the new body on top. The DB6 Volante was chosen because it's the simplest, easiest to cast of the classic DB shapes without the complex curvature of the 4/5, plus it doesn't have a roof. The BMWs headlights could be set, one into each fairing, one either side of the grille, all other light clusters re-wired into the Triumph items as found on the original. The DB6's dashboard is a fairly simple shape that could be moulded as an extension of the bodywork's fibreglass. The BMW floorplan would, of course, be unchanged. Re-fit leather seats and carpets and hey presto - done.
Group C:
This would be more complex. Basically it would be based around an Ultima-style tubular chassis with a central tub complete with 'goldfish bowl' windscreen and scissor-doors in the style of a Group C car of the '80s. The chassis would be accommodating enough for a whole variety of engines and gearboxes a la Minotaur.
But the front and rear sections would be interchangeable. Seeing as though the Group C's all had the same shaped centre section, it would be easy to replicate all the various Group C cars. To change, you'd simply unclip them (would make servicing a doddle too) and fit some others.
Also, they'd be issued in the usual white-finish GRP and be supplied with a selection of replica Group C racing livery decals, which would not only cut down on painting costs, but would give a real 'race car' look.
Well I think they've both got potential. Anyone willing to point me in the right direction?
Your group C idea is similar to one of my housemates. He wants to get the Ultima chassis and improve it and then rebody it. I think if you were looking at going down this route a new body for the Ultima running gear is probably the best / most simple solution, particularly if you read some of the responses to the thread the other day about the looks of the Ultimas. Shows that there is a market for it at least. I know I thought they were a bit strange when I first saw one all those years ago at Earls Court.
On the other hand, to improve on the Ultima's body to give a better aerodynamic package would be much trickier. Whilst I doubt the current body was subjected to a great deal of aero testing it is obviously a pretty good effort. To make a significant improvement you would need some wind tunnel time, which is rather expensive. From a business point of view I would doubt it would be a money maker. However, if you're like me you probably couldn't care less and want to do it for fun.
What course is it that you're studying?
On the other hand, to improve on the Ultima's body to give a better aerodynamic package would be much trickier. Whilst I doubt the current body was subjected to a great deal of aero testing it is obviously a pretty good effort. To make a significant improvement you would need some wind tunnel time, which is rather expensive. From a business point of view I would doubt it would be a money maker. However, if you're like me you probably couldn't care less and want to do it for fun.
What course is it that you're studying?
I'm studying politics, but I like the idea of producing replicas of the Jaguar XJR-8/9, Lancia LC2, Sauber-Mercedes, Porsche 962 and so on.
It also struck me that these cars could be fitted with similar engines - Jaguar, Lancia, Mercedes, Porsche etc. They would be their own aerodynamic packaging in themselves, but I think that the Ultima is a bit odd-looking, whereas people always go for replicas, and I think Group C cars have as much potential as GT40 replicas. The fact that you could produce several replicas with the same chassis and centre bodywork makes it even more cost-effective.
What do you think of the DB6 replica? If you look at seriously desirable cars, the 'DB' Aston series seems to be a significant one that hasn't been replicated. The DB6 Volante is the simplest of the shapes so it's easy to cast in fibreglass well (no rounded fins, no humped bootlid, no massive chrome bumpers). The BMW E30 3-series basis makes it reliable, but of course it would take away the only drawback of the E30 - the rust. Given the closeness of the donor car's chassis, I reckon the build would be less involved than, say, a Cobra.
It also struck me that these cars could be fitted with similar engines - Jaguar, Lancia, Mercedes, Porsche etc. They would be their own aerodynamic packaging in themselves, but I think that the Ultima is a bit odd-looking, whereas people always go for replicas, and I think Group C cars have as much potential as GT40 replicas. The fact that you could produce several replicas with the same chassis and centre bodywork makes it even more cost-effective.
What do you think of the DB6 replica? If you look at seriously desirable cars, the 'DB' Aston series seems to be a significant one that hasn't been replicated. The DB6 Volante is the simplest of the shapes so it's easy to cast in fibreglass well (no rounded fins, no humped bootlid, no massive chrome bumpers). The BMW E30 3-series basis makes it reliable, but of course it would take away the only drawback of the E30 - the rust. Given the closeness of the donor car's chassis, I reckon the build would be less involved than, say, a Cobra.
Be careful going down the Banham route. It's tempting as a short cut and it has a lot of advantages in terms of preserving suspension geometry but modern cars with monocoque bodyshells use pretty much the whole shell as a structural component. When you cut everything away and just leave the floorpan, you loose most of the stifness it ever had. Trying to weld a tubular structure back on to it to but the stifness back is extremely difficult because even very thin-walled steel tubes are likely to be quite a bit thicker than what you're welding to and feeding the loads into a small area of the "parent" steel often results in fatigue cracks forming round the point you weld to. Its not impossible, just very difficult to do nicely.
Also, don't under-estimate the amount of work involved in developing all the fiddly little bits like hinges and door seals. They're not glamorous but they make a huge difference to the overall look and feel of the finished product and can be surprisingly difficult to get right!
Also, don't under-estimate the amount of work involved in developing all the fiddly little bits like hinges and door seals. They're not glamorous but they make a huge difference to the overall look and feel of the finished product and can be surprisingly difficult to get right!
Avocet said:
Be careful going down the Banham route. It's tempting as a short cut and it has a lot of advantages in terms of preserving suspension geometry but modern cars with monocoque bodyshells use pretty much the whole shell as a structural component. When you cut everything away and just leave the floorpan, you loose most of the stifness it ever had. Trying to weld a tubular structure back on to it to but the stifness back is extremely difficult because even very thin-walled steel tubes are likely to be quite a bit thicker than what you're welding to and feeding the loads into a small area of the "parent" steel often results in fatigue cracks forming round the point you weld to. Its not impossible, just very difficult to do nicely.
Also, don't under-estimate the amount of work involved in developing all the fiddly little bits like hinges and door seals. They're not glamorous but they make a huge difference to the overall look and feel of the finished product and can be surprisingly difficult to get right!
Precisely - this is the stuff I couldn't do. I'm an ideas-man, not a technical man, it's just that if I want to do something with these ideas I'll need help.
I think the intention with the DB6 would be to use as much of the donor BMW as possible. Obviously I'd need to take a closer look at one, but there might be some elements of structural subframe in there that could be used. A good thing about the E30 is that it doesn't have an integral mid-way roll bar as they built the extra strength necessary into the windscreen frame, so in fitting the new windscreen it would be important to use the right gauge of steel for the surround, but at least it means no non-standard-looking rear-seat roll-bars.
In reality, it would be a rebody rather than a ground-up kit.
I think the DB6 kits would come in the following parts plus donor:
-complete subframe, following the complete Volante body shape, complete with integral windscreen rail and fitting brackets for lights, bumpers and so on.
-Bodyshell, formed as one piece and pre-cut at the factory, possibly seals fitted too, body moulding includes dashboard in body colour as original.
-Hood and hood frame, chrome edging for existing BMW door glass to fit flush with hood.
-Detail kit, including door cards to be covered in leather, instruments (outside supplier?), brightwork (limited to grille and rear numberplate surround), perspex covers for headlight fairings, windscreen taken from passable similar car.
>> Edited by Twincam16 on Saturday 21st May 14:11
Twincam16 said:
...I like the idea of producing replicas of the Jaguar XJR-8/9, Lancia LC2, Sauber-Mercedes, Porsche 962 and so on....
Sorry to be so negative, but I think you have to inject a little realism, here:
1) Accurate replicas of C2/Le Mans racers are next to useless for road use. The ground clearance is too low (only partly overcome by Dauer and Schuppan by using fancy shocks to lift the ride height for speed humps and kerbs) and the supension movement very limited (check out the clearance between the top of the tyre and the wheelarch on them), so unless you are going for the track day market, The car would look as if it were standing on tiptoe.
2)You are going to have stiff competition from Ultima and Stealth, not to mention all the much cheaper bike engined sports racer types that are breeding these days (Westfield XTR2, Radical etc.) who have already pretty much saturated the market and established their reputations.
3) Developing bodywork is probably the most complex and costly part of the project/ Just how many examples of each variant do you think you could sell?
If you look closely at the history of the kit car industry, you'd be amazed how many cars were developed and marketed which failed to sell a single example, or perhaps only sold 2 or 3. Kit car companies which manage to make a decent, steady profit are few and far between and usually do it by sticking to fairly mainstream, mass-market ideas.
I can't see the DB series, apart from the DBR1, being a great choice. How many buyers would take one of these instead of a Cobra?
The market is dominated by the following categories:-
Sevens
Cobras
RGB track day cars like the Westfield XTR, Radical and MK GT1
30's style roadsters like the Marlin
60's style sporstscars like the Fisher Fury
Various replicas like Porsche spyders etc
There are very few modern sportscar designs of which the Phantom and the Libra are examples.
Lets look at these categories:-
Sevens -
market saturated with only a mid engined gap to fill
Cobras -
market saturated
RGB track day cars -
market catered for/saturated though an alternaive to the Radical look would be a nice change, they don't all HAVE to look the same...
30's roadsters -
Catered for
60's roadsters -
Fury in all its guises!
Other replicas -
Probably little market for them and catered for
The market for group C type racers is pretty well covered by the Ultima.
So that leaves the following market gaps :-
A middy seven, there's only the Mojo at present and this doesn't look much like a traditional Seven.
A non cobra sportscar in the sector under the Ultima. I can't think of many apart from the Phantom. There are plenty of fwd V6 engines to choose from, Ford ST220 or Alfa GTA V6 for example.
A track day racer that doesn't look like a Radical. A porsche spyder look design for example. I suspect this niche would be miniscule in sales terms though.
A modern mid engined sportscar. Only the Libra at the moment.
But perhaps the biggest gap of all is a four seater such as the Loyus Elan plus 2. In fact this car would be a good starting point, it just needs fixed headlights and to be four inches bigger all round.
Other thoughts
I suspect that the biggest reason that so many kit cars fail, as Martin S points out, is because they either look terrible or offer nothing that a more established company doesn't already provide.
Martin, can you think of a good looking kit that didn't sell and wasn't very similar to something already existing?
The market is dominated by the following categories:-
Sevens
Cobras
RGB track day cars like the Westfield XTR, Radical and MK GT1
30's style roadsters like the Marlin
60's style sporstscars like the Fisher Fury
Various replicas like Porsche spyders etc
There are very few modern sportscar designs of which the Phantom and the Libra are examples.
Lets look at these categories:-
Sevens -
market saturated with only a mid engined gap to fill
Cobras -
market saturated
RGB track day cars -
market catered for/saturated though an alternaive to the Radical look would be a nice change, they don't all HAVE to look the same...
30's roadsters -
Catered for
60's roadsters -
Fury in all its guises!
Other replicas -
Probably little market for them and catered for
The market for group C type racers is pretty well covered by the Ultima.
So that leaves the following market gaps :-
A middy seven, there's only the Mojo at present and this doesn't look much like a traditional Seven.
A non cobra sportscar in the sector under the Ultima. I can't think of many apart from the Phantom. There are plenty of fwd V6 engines to choose from, Ford ST220 or Alfa GTA V6 for example.
A track day racer that doesn't look like a Radical. A porsche spyder look design for example. I suspect this niche would be miniscule in sales terms though.
A modern mid engined sportscar. Only the Libra at the moment.
But perhaps the biggest gap of all is a four seater such as the Loyus Elan plus 2. In fact this car would be a good starting point, it just needs fixed headlights and to be four inches bigger all round.
Other thoughts
I suspect that the biggest reason that so many kit cars fail, as Martin S points out, is because they either look terrible or offer nothing that a more established company doesn't already provide.
Martin, can you think of a good looking kit that didn't sell and wasn't very similar to something already existing?
Twincam16, take a look at this thread for, amongst other things, a discussion of the cost of bringing a kit to production. You're essentially asking someone to give you quarter of a million quid to develop a car so you're going to need to do a hell of a lot of leg work to get a proposal to the level where anyone would even look at it.
Oh I've read that thread to death I'm afraid.
I do wonder sometimes, though, how much engineering a new fibreglass body would cost.
I mean, put it this way - the mainstream car industry thrives on platform engineering, basically amounting to one giant parts bin (which in kit car terms is as big as you like TBH), and a variety of bodyshells depending on what the customer's after.
I've gone away and had a thought about this.
I reckon, rather than engineering completely new cars, it may merely be a question of developing new bodyshells for existing cars (through the existing companies). I mean, surely the sort of people who buy Triple-C Challenger E-Type replicas might also consider a DB6 Volante, so looking at the way the Challenger's built, it would just be a case of a different bodyshell and the same parts. By the same token, I reckon Minotaur are ripe for a few optionally different body panels.
A lot of (highly successful I might add) kits in the '70s and '80s, such as the Arkley SS and the Dragonfly, involved swapping the front and rear sections of the MG Midget for some new bits. I don't see how it would be so different.
I now see that engineering new kit cars costs a fortune and is crippling the industry, but surely the way around that is to essentially 'platform engineer' the existing ones.
I do wonder sometimes, though, how much engineering a new fibreglass body would cost.
I mean, put it this way - the mainstream car industry thrives on platform engineering, basically amounting to one giant parts bin (which in kit car terms is as big as you like TBH), and a variety of bodyshells depending on what the customer's after.
I've gone away and had a thought about this.
I reckon, rather than engineering completely new cars, it may merely be a question of developing new bodyshells for existing cars (through the existing companies). I mean, surely the sort of people who buy Triple-C Challenger E-Type replicas might also consider a DB6 Volante, so looking at the way the Challenger's built, it would just be a case of a different bodyshell and the same parts. By the same token, I reckon Minotaur are ripe for a few optionally different body panels.
A lot of (highly successful I might add) kits in the '70s and '80s, such as the Arkley SS and the Dragonfly, involved swapping the front and rear sections of the MG Midget for some new bits. I don't see how it would be so different.
I now see that engineering new kit cars costs a fortune and is crippling the industry, but surely the way around that is to essentially 'platform engineer' the existing ones.
Sam
FWIW, I also have a few designs up my sleeve. I'll be knocking up a few prototypes in probably 18 months/2 years (unless some cheeky fecker builds it first)
As well as the design skills you either need (only IMO) either a huge amount of money or the following skills:
Basic engineering, only to make sure the chassis isn't completely stupid. you can get a proper chassis designer to tweek it after the prototype, or base the prototype on sa current model
Machining skills, and the machines to do the work
Good mechanicing skills, more than "put a new head gasket on my mates lada"
Welder, unless you're going to use an original chassis and just rebody it
Bodyworker, (some of this could be welder of course) I would say you need to be at least able to get a good finish out of some knackered old glass and have the confidence that you could build a buck and mould (have a look at the Chimaera in my profile)
My attack on this is to learn as much as I can about suspension dynamics practically, and the only way to do that is by driving a car on the limit, and playing with the settings. The only way to do that safely is on a track.
So I'm doing at least 2 years racing and setting up my own car. Then I hope that I'll have learnt enough to get a reasonable set up on my prototype
Engine and drive train will obviously be bought in at this stage and I'll decide on which one at the time. I'll then test the chassis on track with minimal bodywork before sorting the proper shell
If you do all the work yourself (this inludes welding the chassis up and machining specific bits) I reckon you can build a prototype for about £10k
If I was you I'd get spannering, get an old locost or something. IMHO there's a lot more to building cars than having an idea. Even if you've got all the individual parts designed and laid up on computer. You still need someone to make the parts for you and someone to put them together and someone to test them. This is where you get the £100k quotes from, as that's what it costs from a bussines perspective. I would think mine is going to cost me at least £50k in lost earnings. Which is why you rarley see young independant car builders I guess
FWIW, I also have a few designs up my sleeve. I'll be knocking up a few prototypes in probably 18 months/2 years (unless some cheeky fecker builds it first)
As well as the design skills you either need (only IMO) either a huge amount of money or the following skills:
Basic engineering, only to make sure the chassis isn't completely stupid. you can get a proper chassis designer to tweek it after the prototype, or base the prototype on sa current model
Machining skills, and the machines to do the work
Good mechanicing skills, more than "put a new head gasket on my mates lada"
Welder, unless you're going to use an original chassis and just rebody it
Bodyworker, (some of this could be welder of course) I would say you need to be at least able to get a good finish out of some knackered old glass and have the confidence that you could build a buck and mould (have a look at the Chimaera in my profile)
My attack on this is to learn as much as I can about suspension dynamics practically, and the only way to do that is by driving a car on the limit, and playing with the settings. The only way to do that safely is on a track.
So I'm doing at least 2 years racing and setting up my own car. Then I hope that I'll have learnt enough to get a reasonable set up on my prototype
Engine and drive train will obviously be bought in at this stage and I'll decide on which one at the time. I'll then test the chassis on track with minimal bodywork before sorting the proper shell
If you do all the work yourself (this inludes welding the chassis up and machining specific bits) I reckon you can build a prototype for about £10k
If I was you I'd get spannering, get an old locost or something. IMHO there's a lot more to building cars than having an idea. Even if you've got all the individual parts designed and laid up on computer. You still need someone to make the parts for you and someone to put them together and someone to test them. This is where you get the £100k quotes from, as that's what it costs from a bussines perspective. I would think mine is going to cost me at least £50k in lost earnings. Which is why you rarley see young independant car builders I guess
Thanks for the advice Incorrigible.
I guess I was just thinking about the kit cars I wanted to drive that aren't currently made.
What I'll probably do, once I've got the money, is buy and run a second-hand, fully-built kit car, and do a rolling restoration and detailing job.
I even had the idea of getting hold of one of those Capri-based Aston Martin V8 Volante replicas (DMS Dorset Bullet) and first plonking a 3.5-litre Rover twin-plenum V8 in it, then detailing it to get it looking as authentic as possible. Obviously through that I'd learn how these things go together and what it takes to get it looking and driving good.
I mean, the majority of those Bullet kits are finished rather badly, but a few months ago, there was one on Ebay that had been well trimmed, had all the right chrome and grilles fitted, bumpers, walnut dashboard, the lot, and it's look and quality was in a different league. Unlike the £500 scraped up for the usual Bullets, this one made nearly £3k. Imagine that with a V8.
So, obviously I'm going to buy some second-hand kit cars to see what makes a good one, and improve on it, but all the while, I seriously do wonder how much bother a rebody would be.
I guess I was just thinking about the kit cars I wanted to drive that aren't currently made.
What I'll probably do, once I've got the money, is buy and run a second-hand, fully-built kit car, and do a rolling restoration and detailing job.
I even had the idea of getting hold of one of those Capri-based Aston Martin V8 Volante replicas (DMS Dorset Bullet) and first plonking a 3.5-litre Rover twin-plenum V8 in it, then detailing it to get it looking as authentic as possible. Obviously through that I'd learn how these things go together and what it takes to get it looking and driving good.
I mean, the majority of those Bullet kits are finished rather badly, but a few months ago, there was one on Ebay that had been well trimmed, had all the right chrome and grilles fitted, bumpers, walnut dashboard, the lot, and it's look and quality was in a different league. Unlike the £500 scraped up for the usual Bullets, this one made nearly £3k. Imagine that with a V8.
So, obviously I'm going to buy some second-hand kit cars to see what makes a good one, and improve on it, but all the while, I seriously do wonder how much bother a rebody would be.
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