Westfield R1 - Newbie advice
Discussion
Hi all,
I've been toying with the idea of building a Westie for some time and I hope you can help with the following questions.
1. I realise it's possible to stick an R1 engine into a Westie, however, what modifications are required? How hard is it to do?
2. I know this questions is like opening a can of worms, but... Which engine is a good allrounder? Busa = too expensive, Blade = not fast enough :D
3. Is it worth getting a Dry sump? Does an R1 need it?
To give you an idea of what I want the car for: It will be used for blatting round the Lake District (anyone got a BEC in the South Lakes?) with a spot of occasional track day.
Thanks for your help
Andy
I've been toying with the idea of building a Westie for some time and I hope you can help with the following questions.
1. I realise it's possible to stick an R1 engine into a Westie, however, what modifications are required? How hard is it to do?
2. I know this questions is like opening a can of worms, but... Which engine is a good allrounder? Busa = too expensive, Blade = not fast enough :D
3. Is it worth getting a Dry sump? Does an R1 need it?
To give you an idea of what I want the car for: It will be used for blatting round the Lake District (anyone got a BEC in the South Lakes?) with a spot of occasional track day.
Thanks for your help
Andy
If you really want a Westie then the middle ground is the Megabird but for an R1 then have a look at the other companies like Mac#1, MK, etc.
I was asking the same question a few months ago and despite starting thinking about a Caterham R300 I decided to save some cash and build a Mac#1 Type9R with an R1 engine.
Just need to get the cerb sold now!!!!
I was asking the same question a few months ago and despite starting thinking about a Caterham R300 I decided to save some cash and build a Mac#1 Type9R with an R1 engine.
Just need to get the cerb sold now!!!!
Meant to say an R1 will likely need a sump baffle and overfill the oil a little. Costs approx £1200 for 2002 engine/ancillaries, £60 for sump baffle, and if you fancy it £100 for an uprated clutch (a weak point on R1's if you put it in a car).
Busa, you are looking at roughly 3 grand plus by the time you get it in the car. I didn't do any more investigating on that as it's over my budget.
Have a look at www.locostbuilders.co.uk/ for a good amount of alternative options.
If you are looking at it for hooning/trackdays then most of the alternatives would probably be more cost effective.
Westfield do have regular offers on though. The one this month is 10% off.
Busa, you are looking at roughly 3 grand plus by the time you get it in the car. I didn't do any more investigating on that as it's over my budget.
Have a look at www.locostbuilders.co.uk/ for a good amount of alternative options.
If you are looking at it for hooning/trackdays then most of the alternatives would probably be more cost effective.
Westfield do have regular offers on though. The one this month is 10% off.
Like speed8 I've looked into this recently (and just taken the plunge)
For me the R1 was the only choice... it makes 150bhp std (busa 175bhp) and 80ftlb (busa 100ftlb) abd you can get them for under £1k.
I purchased a complete package from a running car and got a modded R1 engine thrown in which makes busa power anyhow.
Other benefits are that an R1 doesn't need any sump mods but you can do a simple baffle very cheaply that makes it 100% however the busa really requires a dry sump at well over £1k. Also the R1 engine is a little lighter and revs much higher.
I have no doubt the Busa is a better engine BUT the end cost is nearly 3times as much as the R1.
The fireblade engine is similar in application to the R1 (ie around £1k and minmal sump mods), at 130bhp it has less power than the R1 but is very reliable.
Of cause these are all conclusions that I have made based on other peoples feeback....
Andy
BTW I've ordered an MK Indy
For me the R1 was the only choice... it makes 150bhp std (busa 175bhp) and 80ftlb (busa 100ftlb) abd you can get them for under £1k.
I purchased a complete package from a running car and got a modded R1 engine thrown in which makes busa power anyhow.
Other benefits are that an R1 doesn't need any sump mods but you can do a simple baffle very cheaply that makes it 100% however the busa really requires a dry sump at well over £1k. Also the R1 engine is a little lighter and revs much higher.
I have no doubt the Busa is a better engine BUT the end cost is nearly 3times as much as the R1.
The fireblade engine is similar in application to the R1 (ie around £1k and minmal sump mods), at 130bhp it has less power than the R1 but is very reliable.
Of cause these are all conclusions that I have made based on other peoples feeback....
Andy
BTW I've ordered an MK Indy
andygtt said:
. . . and got a modded R1 engine thrown in which makes busa power anyhow.
There are lots of people making odd claims for their engines, some of them are just misguided believing that the ram air effect bike manufacturers quote for their bikes will also work on a car when it obviously won't unless you make a huge funnel and drive at 140mph everywhere
I'd get it checked as to get an R1 to 175bhp isn't as easy as people assume - it's harder to do that than to get a busa to 200bhp.
Thanks for all your advice. I think the R1 is the way to go for me. Based on price (engine for <£1000 is a key factor here), also that a dry sump is not necessary (£1k+ is a bit steep on a £1k engine). I appreciate that a Busa engine is going to be the ultimate but I just can't justify it.
In an ideal world I'd just get the Westie but it's most likely going to be another type instead.
BTW. I don't quite understand, what needs doing to a Westfield chassis to fit an R1? Anything else needs doing?
Cheers again
Andy
In an ideal world I'd just get the Westie but it's most likely going to be another type instead.
BTW. I don't quite understand, what needs doing to a Westfield chassis to fit an R1? Anything else needs doing?
Cheers again
Andy
busa_rush said:
. . . and got a modded R1 engine thrown in which makes busa power anyhow.
There are lots of people making odd claims for their engines, some of them are just misguided believing that the ram air effect bike manufacturers quote for their bikes will also work on a car when it obviously won't unless you make a huge funnel and drive at 140mph everywhere
I'd get it checked as to get an R1 to 175bhp isn't as easy as people assume - it's harder to do that than to get a busa to 200bhp.
true, but this one has modded crank, flowed heads and intake etc.etc... in fact £2k in mods and the engine produced 161bhp at the wheels on a bike dyno.
Apparently the car was as quick two up with the modded engine as it was with only the driver with the std R1 unit. Shame the driver buzzed it, I'll probably just stick the std R1 engine in and check the modded one thoroughly over the winter.
But I understand what you mean, I take all this BHP talk with a pinch of salt.
From what I've seen, when you stick an R1 engine in a car with a properly designed 4-2-1 manifold + decent freeflow air intake system and get it remapped to cope, it can easily make 160bhp. I've know this one reached 172bhp when put on a dyno:
www.auiu24.dsl.pipex.com/
You are right about ram air effect. It simply doesn't work below 140mph and most kit cars are geared to about 130mph max.
I'm putting an R1 in a Fisher Fury and I've got lots of info on my web site:
www.btinternet.com/~robert.collingridge/kitcar/
Rob
www.auiu24.dsl.pipex.com/
You are right about ram air effect. It simply doesn't work below 140mph and most kit cars are geared to about 130mph max.
I'm putting an R1 in a Fisher Fury and I've got lots of info on my web site:
www.btinternet.com/~robert.collingridge/kitcar/
Rob
robcollingridge said:
From what I've seen, when you stick an R1 engine in a car with a properly designed 4-2-1 manifold + decent freeflow air intake system and get it remapped to cope, it can easily make 160bhp. I've know this one reached 172bhp when put on a dyno:
www.auiu24.dsl.pipex.com/
These engines are already producing more bhp/tonne than any car engine, you can't make an engine jump from 140bhp to 172bhp with just a remap and different manifold. It's not going to happen. It's not as if they are strangled on the bikes in the first place. What does happen though is a RR operator giving the customer what he wants to see
An R1 westie isnt a factory available option as you know, but if you're heart is set on one and you dont mind thinking on your feet a bit and getting the odd bit custom made, its not rocket science. A friend of mine converted his Megablade to an R1 last winter, (as I did with my Locost blade this spring), there's no chassis mods or anything to make, the only real mechanical changes would be to have new engine cradles fabricated up, but those wouldnt cost much in the scheme of things. Drop me an email and I'll pass on his details if you want to speak to him about the install.
As others say, the R1 is a good compromise being relatively cheap, well proven and not needing dry sumping, and having driven BECs with all three engines you've mentioned (blade, R1 and Busa), I can say that the R1 is closer to the busa in performance than the blade is to the R1, if you see what I mean.
Chris
As others say, the R1 is a good compromise being relatively cheap, well proven and not needing dry sumping, and having driven BECs with all three engines you've mentioned (blade, R1 and Busa), I can say that the R1 is closer to the busa in performance than the blade is to the R1, if you see what I mean.
Chris
mag1caltrev0r said:
Thanks for all your advice. I think the R1 is the way to go for me. Based on price (engine for <£1000 is a key factor here), also that a dry sump is not necessary (£1k+ is a bit steep on a £1k engine). I appreciate that a Busa engine is going to be the ultimate but I just can't justify it.
In an ideal world I'd just get the Westie but it's most likely going to be another type instead.
BTW. I don't quite understand, what needs doing to a Westfield chassis to fit an R1? Anything else needs doing?
Cheers again
Andy
busa_rush - Late carbed or early injection R1s produce 152bhp at the crank stock in the bike, and thats with a restrictive airbox and a baffled silencer, so to produce 160bhp in BEC trim isnt unreasonable. I agree though that 170+ is likely to be a slightly optimistic RR as much as anything else.
FWIW my 2003 injected R1 engine RR'd a few weeks ago at 137bhp at the wheels with a stock R1 silencer, sausage filter and a Power Commander map donated from a similar spec'd car. This was calculated at 154 crank bhp which is nearly 20bhp lower than above, but IIRC only about 8bhp difference in the actual recorded wheel bhp, showing the inaccuracies of the coast down test. With a straight through silencer and a properly mapped Power Commander I see no reason why I wouldnt see 142-145bhp at the wheels though.
For comparison, on the same rollers (although at different times), a friend's Megabusa RR'd at 159bhp @ wheels, and a ZX12 150bhp.
Chris
>> Edited by Locoblade on Monday 12th September 20:50
FWIW my 2003 injected R1 engine RR'd a few weeks ago at 137bhp at the wheels with a stock R1 silencer, sausage filter and a Power Commander map donated from a similar spec'd car. This was calculated at 154 crank bhp which is nearly 20bhp lower than above, but IIRC only about 8bhp difference in the actual recorded wheel bhp, showing the inaccuracies of the coast down test. With a straight through silencer and a properly mapped Power Commander I see no reason why I wouldnt see 142-145bhp at the wheels though.
For comparison, on the same rollers (although at different times), a friend's Megabusa RR'd at 159bhp @ wheels, and a ZX12 150bhp.
Chris
>> Edited by Locoblade on Monday 12th September 20:50
Locoblade said:
FWIW my 2003 injected R1 engine RR'd a few weeks ago at 137bhp at the wheels with a stock R1 silencer, sausage filter and a Power Commander map donated from a similar spec'd car. This was calculated at 154 crank bhp
That's a more realistic power figure and perfectly believable.
Sorry to sound so pedantic, it's my pet hate, I shouldn't let it get to me
No probs 
I think some of the discrepencies that may particularly affect bike engines is that its very hard to do an accurate coast down test. With a normal H gate gearbox you get with a car engine, as soon as they hit peak power they knock it into neutral to measure the coastdown losses. Obviously with a sequential box this isnt possible, so they either just dip the clutch, or quickly go back down the box and try to find neutral which blatantly cant help but affect readings. Either that or they dont bother with the coastdown at all and just estimate losses!
>> Edited by Locoblade on Monday 12th September 21:13
I think some of the discrepencies that may particularly affect bike engines is that its very hard to do an accurate coast down test. With a normal H gate gearbox you get with a car engine, as soon as they hit peak power they knock it into neutral to measure the coastdown losses. Obviously with a sequential box this isnt possible, so they either just dip the clutch, or quickly go back down the box and try to find neutral which blatantly cant help but affect readings. Either that or they dont bother with the coastdown at all and just estimate losses!
>> Edited by Locoblade on Monday 12th September 21:13
maybe I confused the issue, the power output that this engine produced (161bhp) was at the wheel of a bike.... obviously the diff in a car is going to sap some of that.
The best measure will without doubt be the BHP at the wheels, although this can still be manipulated by the operator.
I'd be hounest the std 175bhp of the Busa doesn't impress me that much.... but only because I was looking at drag busas at the weekend with turbos on producing in excess of 500bhp!!!! from a 1300cc????
The best measure will without doubt be the BHP at the wheels, although this can still be manipulated by the operator.
I'd be hounest the std 175bhp of the Busa doesn't impress me that much.... but only because I was looking at drag busas at the weekend with turbos on producing in excess of 500bhp!!!! from a 1300cc????
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