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Hi Folks,
I have just jumped over from the TVR forums.
I am looking to buy a Se7en as my TVR met a tragic end. I am looking at several but could do with some guidance on which ones to prefer/avoid. My budget is not great so I will be looking at older models.
The are many to choose from but all must have pro's and cons. I have seen a Formula 27 which looks good but there are also Robin Hoods, MK's, Tigers, Dax, Sylvia plus many others I guess.
I see the Formula 27 has some kind of inboard front suspension. Is this good or bad.
Are there any to avoid and are there any bits I should be wary of.
I hope to build one next year but need a toy for this summer and the drive to Le Mans
. Hopefully by buying a cheap one, I will learn a few tricks ready for my build next year.
Any guidance would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Steve
I have just jumped over from the TVR forums.
I am looking to buy a Se7en as my TVR met a tragic end. I am looking at several but could do with some guidance on which ones to prefer/avoid. My budget is not great so I will be looking at older models.
The are many to choose from but all must have pro's and cons. I have seen a Formula 27 which looks good but there are also Robin Hoods, MK's, Tigers, Dax, Sylvia plus many others I guess.
I see the Formula 27 has some kind of inboard front suspension. Is this good or bad.
Are there any to avoid and are there any bits I should be wary of.
I hope to build one next year but need a toy for this summer and the drive to Le Mans
. Hopefully by buying a cheap one, I will learn a few tricks ready for my build next year. Any guidance would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Steve
Sorry.
Yes an looking at used cars with a budget £4500. Obviously I would prefer to get on cheaper to leave some money for the inevitable improvements required.
I may be able to stretch to £5K absolute max. I will have some money coming from the insurance company later in the year but by that time I guess prices will have gone up. That will be my kit sorted for next year though.
Ta,
Steve
Yes an looking at used cars with a budget £4500. Obviously I would prefer to get on cheaper to leave some money for the inevitable improvements required.
I may be able to stretch to £5K absolute max. I will have some money coming from the insurance company later in the year but by that time I guess prices will have gone up. That will be my kit sorted for next year though.
Ta,
Steve
With a £4.5K budget, the Sylva will be dynamically better than anything else you are likely to come across - just check the race results in the 750 Club Kit Car Championship; I guarantee that most of the grid will have originated on the Sylva drawing board (Sylva, Fisher, RAW, Stuart Taylor Phoenix, etc.)
Cheaper Westfields also fall in your price bracket and are nice cars. A pre-litigation Westfield with a Crossflow is visually and dynamically very similar to an original (live axle) Lotus/Caterham Seven and if you can find a well looked after one would be an excellent choice.
A good Dax will be outside your budget, unless you are very lucky, but in any case they are physically quite big for a Seven and any in your price range are likely to be Pinto powered.
Avoid Robin Hoods, period!
There are Tigers and Tigers...the Super Six/B6/R6 are a nice enough cars, if a bit heavily built, but the Tiger Cat isn't so impressive. It was intended as a 'single donor' budget kit and Sierra semi-trailing arm rear suspension components, which are way too heavy and geometrically less than perfect for this type of car. You can identify the Tiger Cat by ungainly bulges in the leading edge of the rear wings, which cover these semi-trailing arms. You'd be lucky to find a good Super Six/B6/R6 within your budget.
F27's and MK's originated from plans-built cars and as a result have a few compromises for low cost and simplicity of construction. Built quality also tends to be a bit variable for this reason - many have been built on a very tight budget, with bits been begged, borrowed and stolen instead of bought new or properly reconditioned. There are some good ones out there, but there are some right old sheds, too!
Inboard suspension offers some theoretical benefits - springs/dampers can be more vertical, so give more linear rates, for example, and looks cleaner. It can have downsides too, though, if not designed properly - the upper rocking arms are very heavily loaded and often dont have a wide enough base (ie. triangulation fore and aft), so can flex under heavy braking, damper cooling is less good, etc.
On budget designs, rocker arm suspension is often used to allow the donor MacPherson Strut upright from the donor car (usually MK2 Escort or Sierra) to be adapted, instead of having to source a more suitable upright from somewhere else (Cortina uprights used to be popular, but are getting a little thin on the ground!). The Sylva usually has rocker arm inboard suspension (you might come across cars with outboard suspension using Chevette uprights) and is well designed and effective. I am less convinced about the design of the rocker arms on the F27...
Obviously, your budget isn't going to buy you the levels of performance, handling and build quality of the latest Dax, Westfield and Caterham models, but you should be able to find a tidy, reliable car that is a lot of fun to drive and is cheap and easy to maintain.
Cheaper Westfields also fall in your price bracket and are nice cars. A pre-litigation Westfield with a Crossflow is visually and dynamically very similar to an original (live axle) Lotus/Caterham Seven and if you can find a well looked after one would be an excellent choice.
A good Dax will be outside your budget, unless you are very lucky, but in any case they are physically quite big for a Seven and any in your price range are likely to be Pinto powered.
Avoid Robin Hoods, period!
There are Tigers and Tigers...the Super Six/B6/R6 are a nice enough cars, if a bit heavily built, but the Tiger Cat isn't so impressive. It was intended as a 'single donor' budget kit and Sierra semi-trailing arm rear suspension components, which are way too heavy and geometrically less than perfect for this type of car. You can identify the Tiger Cat by ungainly bulges in the leading edge of the rear wings, which cover these semi-trailing arms. You'd be lucky to find a good Super Six/B6/R6 within your budget.
F27's and MK's originated from plans-built cars and as a result have a few compromises for low cost and simplicity of construction. Built quality also tends to be a bit variable for this reason - many have been built on a very tight budget, with bits been begged, borrowed and stolen instead of bought new or properly reconditioned. There are some good ones out there, but there are some right old sheds, too!
Inboard suspension offers some theoretical benefits - springs/dampers can be more vertical, so give more linear rates, for example, and looks cleaner. It can have downsides too, though, if not designed properly - the upper rocking arms are very heavily loaded and often dont have a wide enough base (ie. triangulation fore and aft), so can flex under heavy braking, damper cooling is less good, etc.
On budget designs, rocker arm suspension is often used to allow the donor MacPherson Strut upright from the donor car (usually MK2 Escort or Sierra) to be adapted, instead of having to source a more suitable upright from somewhere else (Cortina uprights used to be popular, but are getting a little thin on the ground!). The Sylva usually has rocker arm inboard suspension (you might come across cars with outboard suspension using Chevette uprights) and is well designed and effective. I am less convinced about the design of the rocker arms on the F27...
Obviously, your budget isn't going to buy you the levels of performance, handling and build quality of the latest Dax, Westfield and Caterham models, but you should be able to find a tidy, reliable car that is a lot of fun to drive and is cheap and easy to maintain.
Sam_68 said:
Avoid Robin Hoods, period!
Well that's narrowed the field somewhat. Is there something fundamentally wrong with them or or they just poor quality.
Sam_68 said:
Sylva drawing board (Sylva, Fisher, RAW, Stuart Taylor Phoenix, etc.)
Does this suggest that these are all worthy of consideration.
Thanks for the advice. There are a few pre-lit Westfields about for around £4-5K so I will start looking more seriously at these and any Sylvia types.
gefopsman said:
Is there something fundamentally wrong with them or or they just poor quality.
Yes and yes. At risk of falling foul of Ted's naming and shaming policy, I think if you do a little more research you'll find that the general concensus is:
a) They are designed to a very competitive budget. Robin Hood works on a stack 'em high, sell 'em cheap strategy. Their comprehensive kit prices are unbelievably cheap, but with the best will in the world this has meant that they have made some real compromises with the design. Few people would argue that their handling and performance is comparable to Sylvas, Westfields or the like.
b) The kits have a reputation for needing quite a lot of fettling to build properly...they are the complete opposite of a Caterham, for example, which just snaps together like an airfix kit. Combine this with the fact that they are bought mainly by people who either don't know or don't care about their reputation for being a bargain-basement compromise, and you can expect more than the fair share of build-quality issues.
gefopsman said:
Sylva drawing board (Sylva, Fisher, RAW, Stuart Taylor Phoenix, etc.)
Does this suggest that these are all worthy of consideration.
Yes, any of the Sylva derivatives are competently designed cars. I'd rate their designer, Jeremy Phillips, up there with Colin Chapman and Gordon Murray and their ilk, only, unlike Chapman and Murray, he has never shown any sign of wanting to move up from the budget clubmans' racing scene to 'professional' formulae. Only the Sylva/RAW Striker looks something like a 'traditional' Seven, though (even then, it's by no means a clone, so if you want something that could be mistaken for a Caterham, then it's not for you). There would be no shortage of good Strikers within your price bracket and there will be a few Crossflow or Pinto-engined Phoenix, Stylus and Fury cars around at that money, too. Take a look at the Sylva Sportscar Register website for a bit more info on the cars.
>> Edited by Sam_68 on Wednesday 25th January 22:23
I'd second the above. Robin Hoods tend to change hands quite quickly. I've never built or driven one but some of the detail design I see wandering round kit car shows makes my hair stand on end! This is obviously just a personal opinion but if I was shopping for a 7 I wouldn't have one on the list. It seems to be generally true that you get what you pay for so on a limited budget, I'd rather get one of the others (I genuinely think the Caterhams are pretty much the nicest out there) that needed a bit of work (say, an engine).
Disregarding the "quality" of the Robin Hood cars which is well documented if you research, the main issue is weight - they're bl00dy heavy bugg3rs by all accounts, which doesn't make them the quickest things in the world either.
On your subject, I bought my MK Indy for 4750 a few months ago so it's in your budget. It's a bike engined model (which tend to cost more than their car-engined counterparts, certainly xflow, pinto etc). I bought at the "right time" (ie cold wet and wintery). Good for price, bad in that I've done hardly any miles since I bought it!
You should still be good for a bargain if you get your skates on, but in a couple of months prices will start to increase with temperature.
On your subject, I bought my MK Indy for 4750 a few months ago so it's in your budget. It's a bike engined model (which tend to cost more than their car-engined counterparts, certainly xflow, pinto etc). I bought at the "right time" (ie cold wet and wintery). Good for price, bad in that I've done hardly any miles since I bought it!
You should still be good for a bargain if you get your skates on, but in a couple of months prices will start to increase with temperature.
Robin Hoods are heavier than many other marks but they are also larger. If you are large or plan to do a lot of touring this can be a serious advantage. If you are only going to use it as a track day car then another mark would be better. If you are comparing like for like engine wise then most of the extra weight of a Robin Hood goes into its extra size and chassis. If you are going to have an accident in a 7 choose a Robin Hood.
They don't fit together like an air fix kit. They do require a lot more from the builder. I have seen some truly terrible examples. But then there are plenty of very well made ones. You do need to have a good look at the car before buying and ask plenty of questions about how it was built.
With your budget I would seriously consider a Robin Hood 2B unless you are after a purely track car. But then I did build one.
If you can wait have a good look at some diferent makes at shows and ideally have a ride.
If you contact your local branch of the members club (www.rhocar.org) you will get plenty of offers to come on viewings with you and give you advice. The members club is the best I have seen.
One of the reasons there are so many Robin Hoods for sale is there are so many of them. Robin Hood shift 200 more cars every year than Caterham and 300 more than Westfield. None of the other kit manufacturers are in the same league in terms of numbers.
They don't fit together like an air fix kit. They do require a lot more from the builder. I have seen some truly terrible examples. But then there are plenty of very well made ones. You do need to have a good look at the car before buying and ask plenty of questions about how it was built.
With your budget I would seriously consider a Robin Hood 2B unless you are after a purely track car. But then I did build one.
If you can wait have a good look at some diferent makes at shows and ideally have a ride.
If you contact your local branch of the members club (www.rhocar.org) you will get plenty of offers to come on viewings with you and give you advice. The members club is the best I have seen.
One of the reasons there are so many Robin Hoods for sale is there are so many of them. Robin Hood shift 200 more cars every year than Caterham and 300 more than Westfield. None of the other kit manufacturers are in the same league in terms of numbers.
Ah!! I guessed there would be a differing view from the Robin Hood community.
I don't plan on crashing it (but then I didn't plan on destroying my TVR either!!) but am looking for something which will lend itself to spirited driving and a bit of touring. Le Mans is calling!!
I hope to start a fresh build next year but am just looking for a stop gap which will not devalue too much and will give me an insight into the cars so I am more aware prior to buying/building next year.
If 7 drivers are anything like the TVR guys the I will be far wiser by next year and will have gained some good friends.
My budget is limited as I am waiting for the insurance company and we all know that they don't rush.
I am mechanically competent and have workshop facilities so buying something in need of TLC may be a good starter.
Thanks for all views.
Steve
I don't plan on crashing it (but then I didn't plan on destroying my TVR either!!) but am looking for something which will lend itself to spirited driving and a bit of touring. Le Mans is calling!!
I hope to start a fresh build next year but am just looking for a stop gap which will not devalue too much and will give me an insight into the cars so I am more aware prior to buying/building next year.
If 7 drivers are anything like the TVR guys the I will be far wiser by next year and will have gained some good friends.
My budget is limited as I am waiting for the insurance company and we all know that they don't rush.
I am mechanically competent and have workshop facilities so buying something in need of TLC may be a good starter.
Thanks for all views.
Steve
You could do a lot worse than these fine examples over on the wscc forums.
I know one is a bit over budget, but there may be room for haggling.
Swapping over to cycle style wings can make a world of difference in the looks
department if you prefer that style too.
http://boardroom.wscc.co.uk/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=
http://boardroom.wscc.co.uk/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=
>> Edited by Digby on Thursday 26th January 19:27
I know one is a bit over budget, but there may be room for haggling.
Swapping over to cycle style wings can make a world of difference in the looks
department if you prefer that style too.
http://boardroom.wscc.co.uk/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=
http://boardroom.wscc.co.uk/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=
>> Edited by Digby on Thursday 26th January 19:27
I bought a built Robin Hood about 5 years ago as my first kit car and very quickly decided to strip it completely down and start again, fully reconditioned engine, suspension,new dasboard/ guages - basically everything as I was unhappy about how it had been put together originally, I know I should have thought about that when I bought it but the price was right at the time.
I used the car all year round for work and pleasure, and when I wasn't using it my brother had it. This included a trip to Le Mans throughout which it never missed a beat. I filled it up in a petrol station watching a crowd of people around a broken down Diablo and later passed an overheating Aston Martin !!!
My point is that they may not be the best 7's out there, I couldn't afford a Westfield at the time, but mine was used as a car for pleasure 12 months of the year. I have a friend with a Cobra and one with an Elise that only come out when the sun is shining.
If you are planning to buy, run for a year and then sell on do not just discount them.
When I advertised mine at what I thought was a reasonable price, the first person came to look the day it went in the magazine and bought it at the stated price, and following this I had about 30 other callers.
I used the car all year round for work and pleasure, and when I wasn't using it my brother had it. This included a trip to Le Mans throughout which it never missed a beat. I filled it up in a petrol station watching a crowd of people around a broken down Diablo and later passed an overheating Aston Martin !!!
My point is that they may not be the best 7's out there, I couldn't afford a Westfield at the time, but mine was used as a car for pleasure 12 months of the year. I have a friend with a Cobra and one with an Elise that only come out when the sun is shining.
If you are planning to buy, run for a year and then sell on do not just discount them.
When I advertised mine at what I thought was a reasonable price, the first person came to look the day it went in the magazine and bought it at the stated price, and following this I had about 30 other callers.
alant said:
My point is that they may not be the best 7's out there, I couldn't afford a Westfield at the time, but mine was used as a car for pleasure 12 months of the year. I have a friend with a Cobra and one with an Elise that only come out when the sun is shining.
If you are planning to buy, run for a year and then sell on do not just discount them.
The main issue for me is reliability as I am hoping to go to Le Mans in it. Obviously speed and handling come a close second as I may be travelling with the TVR boys. This means that the weight aspect is quite important.
After getting an insurance quote
I decided that cheaper is better because I can only get Third Party cover. Obviously two accidents in three years makes me a high risk
. Two in 20 years puts it a little more into perspective though!! As I only plan to keep it for a year while I consider whether to I build one, I have weighed up the useful advice against the costs and related issues.
I think I will be updating my profile shortly with a new toy.
Sounds like I will be going for the suggested variants though when I get a kit, as then performance will be king closely followed by quality.
Thanks for all your useful advice folks.
Steve
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