Phantom Build Update
Discussion
Well, ive had the car 2 months now, and whats been done, well theres a lack of photos of some of this as i havent taken them yet but i will and post later, the biggest mile stone is the body is now under way, i went to visit it last week, still in the mould, they think about 2 more weeks left before it'll be ready for me to pick up.
Here some pix of the body:
back of the mould, dont think thats going to flex much lol.
Here some pix of the body:
back of the mould, dont think thats going to flex much lol.
After deciding to change the steering rack ratio form a 3.5 to a 2.7 turn to turn, and having spoken to other owners its been decided that power steering is a must, so after much research i purchased the power steering column from a 2005 Corsa C, very neat bit of kit, and with some mods to the rover stalks/corsa column, they now fit together:
Next problem was mating a corsa UJ to a rover/escort UJ and keeping it the correct length:
As you can see, quite different in length, so with both measured, i then chopped the end off the rover one and made a bush so it would fit inside the end of the corsa one:
Hey presto, one joint all welded up, i ran a slot down one side of the corsa bit as well to fill with weld and give even more strength, probably not needed but hey the steering is a rather important part
Roughly in place for testing, hope to fire the column up tomorrow and see how good it is
Other bits ive done lately:
Sexy new rear coil overs to replace the standard dampers:
Air con condensor fitted:
Bracket made and welded on the chassis for more air con bits:
Next problem was mating a corsa UJ to a rover/escort UJ and keeping it the correct length:
As you can see, quite different in length, so with both measured, i then chopped the end off the rover one and made a bush so it would fit inside the end of the corsa one:
Hey presto, one joint all welded up, i ran a slot down one side of the corsa bit as well to fill with weld and give even more strength, probably not needed but hey the steering is a rather important part
Roughly in place for testing, hope to fire the column up tomorrow and see how good it is
Other bits ive done lately:
Sexy new rear coil overs to replace the standard dampers:
Air con condensor fitted:
Bracket made and welded on the chassis for more air con bits:
Also discovered for the SVA test all seat belt mounts must have the nut welded to the chassis, i dont, doh, so muchos welding to put all 6 nuts on:
Rear firewall cut out:
Exhaust now fitted properly
Also fitted new discs and pads on the front instead of the donor ones that were on there, and painted all the calipers, think thats about it for now, more will happen in the next few days tho
Rear firewall cut out:
Exhaust now fitted properly
Also fitted new discs and pads on the front instead of the donor ones that were on there, and painted all the calipers, think thats about it for now, more will happen in the next few days tho
Hi Eddy
So is the top U/J from the Corsa or Rover? if from the Corsa doe it rotate easily without fouling?
( I had to grind out both U/J's to get a smoother action which is still not right).
Are your rear Coil overs adjustable? if so where are they from?
Have you checked the under dash area for clearance for the corsa motor? - if so is there much?
I think you need to be pretty slim to work on the car once the body is on in your garage, I would never fit!!
Best of luck
Nick
So is the top U/J from the Corsa or Rover? if from the Corsa doe it rotate easily without fouling?
( I had to grind out both U/J's to get a smoother action which is still not right).
Are your rear Coil overs adjustable? if so where are they from?
Have you checked the under dash area for clearance for the corsa motor? - if so is there much?
I think you need to be pretty slim to work on the car once the body is on in your garage, I would never fit!!
Best of luck
Nick
Hi Nick, yeh it will be fun once the body is on, Richards garage is worse though. One of the nice things at the moment is the hoist i put up in the roof, i can basically pick up the entire chassis and move it around in the garage depending which area i want to work on.
Coil overs are Avos, adjustable, cost £98 + vat each, + springs, ive got for 180s which Chris thinks is about right, the top mounts very nearly fit, all i had to do was cut a washer to size to step the hole down in the chassis slightly, worked a treat tho.
Not sure what angle the column will sit at yet, its a bit tricky to set it without the body, so ill wait a bit longer, with it at the angle its sitting there it doesnt foul, but i had thought about that as well, i think with mysetup due to some slightly different lengths both UJs work at less of an angle. The top UJ u can see is the standard corsa one, the bottom part u can see i welded on is just cut off the end of the rover column, so the bottom UJ onto the rack should be the same as you already have.
Coil overs are Avos, adjustable, cost £98 + vat each, + springs, ive got for 180s which Chris thinks is about right, the top mounts very nearly fit, all i had to do was cut a washer to size to step the hole down in the chassis slightly, worked a treat tho.
Not sure what angle the column will sit at yet, its a bit tricky to set it without the body, so ill wait a bit longer, with it at the angle its sitting there it doesnt foul, but i had thought about that as well, i think with mysetup due to some slightly different lengths both UJs work at less of an angle. The top UJ u can see is the standard corsa one, the bottom part u can see i welded on is just cut off the end of the rover column, so the bottom UJ onto the rack should be the same as you already have.
Be careful with mounting the EPS, I used to work on these type of systems and we had significant problems with early designs of them ripping the dashboard apart due to the torque that the motors can produce! 
Also getting it working may be a challenge, the software in these systems is extremely safety critical as the motors can quite easily rip the steering wheel out of your hands (you don't want to do a full left/right turn while traveling at high speed on a motorway!).
The system will generally be looking for information from the CAN bus in the vehicle in which it was installed, if some or all of this information is not available then it will probably not work, I am not familiar with the system fitted to the corsa, but this was the case for systems I have worked on.
Otherwise good luck!
Also getting it working may be a challenge, the software in these systems is extremely safety critical as the motors can quite easily rip the steering wheel out of your hands (you don't want to do a full left/right turn while traveling at high speed on a motorway!
). The system will generally be looking for information from the CAN bus in the vehicle in which it was installed, if some or all of this information is not available then it will probably not work, I am not familiar with the system fitted to the corsa, but this was the case for systems I have worked on.
Otherwise good luck!
the mount should be pretty sturdy, its going on a plate that will be welded to a box section that goes across the body, ill make sure we use some ribs on it to strengthen it up tho.
As for the wiring, ive found all the info out for the coras system, all i need to do is give it an engine rpm signal, wheel speed signal, which may not be the right pulse count on mine, but i can get a little box to change it if necessary, and power.
Pretty simple really
Hope to try powering it up tonight and see what happens.
As for the wiring, ive found all the info out for the coras system, all i need to do is give it an engine rpm signal, wheel speed signal, which may not be the right pulse count on mine, but i can get a little box to change it if necessary, and power.
Pretty simple really
Hope to try powering it up tonight and see what happens.
eddyp said:
bit of an update for other phantom owners, power steering works !!! and will hopefully soon be available as a kit, norman, chris and myself hope to be able to sort it so its a nice easy bolt in package.
Eddy - greetings!
My Vortex build is at about the same stage as yours by the look of things. I (finally) got my wiring loom and will be cracking on again in a couple of weeks time.
After a chat with Norman, I'm planning to go down the Corsa EPS route so am VERY interested in your pioneering work! A local mob sell these for race car builds and recalibrate (?) the ECU's and I was going to have a word with them but may not need to now? I was thinking of using the whole Corsa top end (wipers / light stalks) if I can wire them to the Rover loom but no definite plans in that area yet.
Bye for now
Greg
Hi Greg,
Where abouts are you based, myself and another guy, Richard are both near coventry and currently at the build stage.
As for the reprogramming, i know its a possibility but it is rather expensive, however the corsa does have a speed pulse input, which is what i intend to try and use to make it work correctly for the phantom, if you use mark 2 clocks, there is a speed pulse output from them, this could be used with a multiplier or divider to try and get the right signal with any luck.
it would be a lot of work to use the top end of the corsa column with the rover wiring unfortunatly, as they are drastically different, i havent even managed to work out the wiring for the corsa stalks, they seem to switch lots of things but only have 4 contacts, very odd system. Its pretty easy to mod the corsa top end to take the mk1 rover stalks tho.
Where abouts are you based, myself and another guy, Richard are both near coventry and currently at the build stage.
As for the reprogramming, i know its a possibility but it is rather expensive, however the corsa does have a speed pulse input, which is what i intend to try and use to make it work correctly for the phantom, if you use mark 2 clocks, there is a speed pulse output from them, this could be used with a multiplier or divider to try and get the right signal with any luck.
it would be a lot of work to use the top end of the corsa column with the rover wiring unfortunatly, as they are drastically different, i havent even managed to work out the wiring for the corsa stalks, they seem to switch lots of things but only have 4 contacts, very odd system. Its pretty easy to mod the corsa top end to take the mk1 rover stalks tho.
I'm down near Colchester so quite a few miles from Coventry. I've got a rolling chassis now with a manual box and aircon and - God willing - I'll get it all together through the Summer.
I'll be very keen to hear of your progress on coupling the ECU to the Rover pulse output as that sounds like the cheapest way to go.
Sounds like using Corsa arms isn't going to be feasible. Pity as they are, IMO, a lot better looking than the Rover ones - specially in brown. I feel a black spray can coming on! I'll have a look as the Vauxhall wiring diagram and see just how they work before I abandon the idea but you are most probably right!
Have you guys both got looms from Phantom? The electrician's responsiveness seems to have been an ongoing problem but it is a hell of a lot of wiring - glad I didn't have to do it from scratch. I did buy a second whole donor car in case I needed to strip and mod the loom myself. It's a relatively low miles manual which are had to find.
Cheers
Greg
I'll be very keen to hear of your progress on coupling the ECU to the Rover pulse output as that sounds like the cheapest way to go.
Sounds like using Corsa arms isn't going to be feasible. Pity as they are, IMO, a lot better looking than the Rover ones - specially in brown. I feel a black spray can coming on! I'll have a look as the Vauxhall wiring diagram and see just how they work before I abandon the idea but you are most probably right!
Have you guys both got looms from Phantom? The electrician's responsiveness seems to have been an ongoing problem but it is a hell of a lot of wiring - glad I didn't have to do it from scratch. I did buy a second whole donor car in case I needed to strip and mod the loom myself. It's a relatively low miles manual which are had to find.
Cheers
Greg
Hi Greg
I too had a huge falling out with the Electrician! He is difficult to get to know but, after a period of tentative negotiation we are now best of friends and to be honest he couldn't be more helpful.
Remember how long it takes you to get a response or action from Phantom? well just imagine what it is like when you are trying to do something as complicated as a loom with them
Its really nice to see that about 50% of Phantom owners are now on this site, maybe we could push for our own Forum
Best of luck with the build, as soon as you guys have sorted the steering I'll swap mine over.
Nick
I too had a huge falling out with the Electrician! He is difficult to get to know but, after a period of tentative negotiation we are now best of friends and to be honest he couldn't be more helpful.
Remember how long it takes you to get a response or action from Phantom? well just imagine what it is like when you are trying to do something as complicated as a loom with them
Its really nice to see that about 50% of Phantom owners are now on this site, maybe we could push for our own Forum
Best of luck with the build, as soon as you guys have sorted the steering I'll swap mine over.
Nick
Thought I'd chip in too! I bought Chris' green car which is undergoing a full rebuild with some personal tweaks along the way. It won't be green! Pics are on my website: www.ricola.co.uk
Rich
Rich
ricola said:
Thought I'd chip in too! I bought Chris' green car which is undergoing a full rebuild with some personal tweaks along the way. It won't be green! Pics are on my website: www.ricola.co.uk
Great collection of pictures on your site! The flip yellow looks surprisinly good and the engine is awesome!
I didn't personally think the green did much for the car nor the multi-flip purple one but I guess it's all down to personal taste!
Was going to do mine in Subaru WRC blue or the similar Peugeot Aegean Blue after going away from simply copying the Candy Red "factory" car that looks stunning IMO. Having seen Nick's photoshped version of that car into Black, I'm now really tempted to try that for real!
Sorry, Nick, your "exclusivity" is going to take a dive with all these new Phantoms about to hit the streets
Seriously though, a self-help forum for Vortex builders is a real good idea. If it doesn't fit in here, then I can set one up elsewhere if folk want.
eddyp said:
Also discovered for the SVA test all seat belt mounts must have the nut welded to the chassis, i dont, doh, so muchos welding to put all 6 nuts on:
Rear firewall cut out:
Eddy - the tip about welding the nuts in place is useful. Didn't know that!
You going to cut the two large holes in your firewall for the wiring loom after you fit it?
GJGB said:
I'll have a look as the Vauxhall wiring diagram and see just how they work before I abandon the idea but you are most probably right!
You won't be able to tell how it works without understanding the source code for the software, most EPS systems run aswell as vehicle speed and engine speed, steering position, speed and torque.
Which equates to probably a 3 or 4 dimensional map translating those inputs into steering demands, which is then passed through either a 2, 3 or 4 stage motor controller.
It will have a major fault management system, but the fault thresholds will be setup for a different vehicle.
Also the above map is also setup for a different vehicle, the map will most definitely be non-linear and as such your plan to use the pulse idea you may get non-ideal behaviour.
annodomini2 said:
I'll have a look as the Vauxhall wiring diagram and see just how they work before I abandon the idea but you are most probably right!
You won't be able to tell how it works without understanding the source code for the software, most EPS systems run aswell as vehicle speed and engine speed, steering position, speed and torque.
Which equates to probably a 3 or 4 dimensional map translating those inputs into steering demands, which is then passed through either a 2, 3 or 4 stage motor controller.
It will have a major fault management system, but the fault thresholds will be setup for a different vehicle.
Also the above map is also setup for a different vehicle, the map will most definitely be non-linear and as such your plan to use the pulse idea you may get non-ideal behaviour.
Annodomini - I think you misread my earlier post - it was just the wiper / lamps stalks that I was going to check from Vauxhalls wiring diags to maybe link to the Vortex's Rover loom.
On setting up the Corsa colum's ECU, it sounds like you have some knowledge of these matters - which is a lot more than I do! Eddy will no doubt keep us all posted on his progress. If it all does go pear-shaped, I'll talk to these people who are quite local to me
www.wiringlooms.com/corsa-c.html
£225 to mod the ECU isn't too bad if it comes to that.
I havn't looked into power steering yet but is the steering that heavy that it really is necessary ?
If so wouldn't it be easier to fit a power steering rack and use the existing power steering pump ?
I'm sure Norman said the rack was a Ford part - might be some obscure continental part but surely Ford must have had a powered version of it available ?
Obviously if I feel the need for power steering when I get mine on the road I'll just get a bigger set of mole grips or maybe even a set of Stilsons.
On the subject of looms Paul Aylot used his existing Rover loom ( with a few wires extended or shortend to suit ) and has all the functions that his coupe had including the rover alarm and imobiliser and his full electric seats.
Just send a pm.
My engine loom is finished ( after wasting 3 weeks trying to patch into the existing loom it was such a mess I just pulled it all apart and started from scratch ) and I am now going through my Rover loom removing, adding or altering wires to suit the features I want for my car. This has now been going on for about 6 weeks but it is a good excuse for me not having to do any proper work on the car coz its too bloody cold outside!
P.S. if anyone wants a full Rover wiring diagram I have one I could send although it is for '96 on so all the clever bits are in a central control unit but the wire colours are mostly still the same.
>> Edited by kenmorton on Saturday 25th February 22:54
If so wouldn't it be easier to fit a power steering rack and use the existing power steering pump ?
I'm sure Norman said the rack was a Ford part - might be some obscure continental part but surely Ford must have had a powered version of it available ?
Obviously if I feel the need for power steering when I get mine on the road I'll just get a bigger set of mole grips or maybe even a set of Stilsons.
On the subject of looms Paul Aylot used his existing Rover loom ( with a few wires extended or shortend to suit ) and has all the functions that his coupe had including the rover alarm and imobiliser and his full electric seats.
Just send a pm.
My engine loom is finished ( after wasting 3 weeks trying to patch into the existing loom it was such a mess I just pulled it all apart and started from scratch ) and I am now going through my Rover loom removing, adding or altering wires to suit the features I want for my car. This has now been going on for about 6 weeks but it is a good excuse for me not having to do any proper work on the car coz its too bloody cold outside!
P.S. if anyone wants a full Rover wiring diagram I have one I could send although it is for '96 on so all the clever bits are in a central control unit but the wire colours are mostly still the same.
>> Edited by kenmorton on Saturday 25th February 22:54
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