Kit car questions
Discussion
Why are Caterhams so much more expensive than Tigers, Sylvas, MK's etc? Are they really that much better?
Also what are the Sylva Striker and Robin Hoods like in comparison to say a Tiger Super Six or MK Indy as the first two seem to be a fair bit cheaper in some instances?
What is the 1700 Xflow engine like in comparison to the 2.0 pinto in terms of standard power, tuning potential and reliability?
If I bought a kit with a Pinto in how difficult would it be to change it to a Zetec lump at a later date?
Thanks in advance
Also what are the Sylva Striker and Robin Hoods like in comparison to say a Tiger Super Six or MK Indy as the first two seem to be a fair bit cheaper in some instances?
What is the 1700 Xflow engine like in comparison to the 2.0 pinto in terms of standard power, tuning potential and reliability?
If I bought a kit with a Pinto in how difficult would it be to change it to a Zetec lump at a later date?
Thanks in advance
caterhams have a lot of weight reduction also run dry sump and are very good
are they worth the extra money?????
i have a pinto tiger and love it
it all depends on your wallet the mid range cars seem to have more race development than the lower range whiche seem more road cars
comes down to personal preferences
i have heard of a 2l pinto shoving out 206 bhp
if you want more you are welcome but the beauty of these cars is weight reduction therefore people are going to lighter engines ie motorbike engines
its all about choice
are they worth the extra money?????
i have a pinto tiger and love it
it all depends on your wallet the mid range cars seem to have more race development than the lower range whiche seem more road cars
comes down to personal preferences
i have heard of a 2l pinto shoving out 206 bhp
if you want more you are welcome but the beauty of these cars is weight reduction therefore people are going to lighter engines ie motorbike engines
its all about choice
One of the reasons that Caterhams are more expensive than other 7 type cars is that they are a complete kit of new parts that nearly anyone can put together. You don't need any special tools, skills or knowledge, there is no fabrication to be done and everything just bolts together. It would take between 50 and 100 hours to put one together depending on you experience and confidence.
Caterham own the rights to the Lotus 7 and the car is a direct descendent of the Lotus - this may or may not be important to you.
Out of the box, the cars handle very well and are easily adjustable to your preferences. There is a large and active owners club and I am guessing that there are probably more Caterhams on the road than the rest of the manufacturers put together.
There is no reason that any of the other 7 type kits would be any worse if put together by a skillful and knowledgable person but there are a lot of sheds out there. Some of the manufacturers also make pretty heavy chassis and if you are using a single donor kit, the suspension off an old Sierra isn't going to be optimised for a 500kg sports car.
Caterham own the rights to the Lotus 7 and the car is a direct descendent of the Lotus - this may or may not be important to you.
Out of the box, the cars handle very well and are easily adjustable to your preferences. There is a large and active owners club and I am guessing that there are probably more Caterhams on the road than the rest of the manufacturers put together.
There is no reason that any of the other 7 type kits would be any worse if put together by a skillful and knowledgable person but there are a lot of sheds out there. Some of the manufacturers also make pretty heavy chassis and if you are using a single donor kit, the suspension off an old Sierra isn't going to be optimised for a 500kg sports car.
Ok, so the other kits like the MK and the Tiger cant just be bolted together?
When I said fully independant suspension I meant using coilovers of some sort.
I'm starting to see that its not a particular brand I want to be looking for but looking at the seperate elements of chassis, donor vehicle, panels, engine and builder - would this be right?
When I said fully independant suspension I meant using coilovers of some sort.
I'm starting to see that its not a particular brand I want to be looking for but looking at the seperate elements of chassis, donor vehicle, panels, engine and builder - would this be right?
Mikesx13 said:
I'm starting to see that its not a particular brand I want to be looking for but looking at the seperate elements of chassis, donor vehicle, panels, engine and builder - would this be right?
Right or not? I'd say not - it'd be far easier building a kit from a single manufacturer than trying to put x panels on y chassis using z donor that neither x or y have manufactured brackets for.
To be honest, your best bet is to contact the manufacturers and arrange a factory visit and test run in their demonstrator and then contact the local owners club, find out when their next meet is and tag along and ask lots of questions. It'll be easier than trying to explain everything in detail here.
I've just finished building a Tiger Super Six - it was my first kit car and while I wouldn't say it was all easy, nothing really complex came up, but there was a lot of adjustment (using hammers, files, drills etc..) and a lot of extra fabrication required, such as trimming the grp panels to a good fit, making various brackets to hold things down, making the complete dashboard from scratch from plywood and vinyl, cutting holes for wipers, washers etc.., drilling holes for various bolts and rivets to fix items down, lots of edging trim, cuting vents, cutting the ali panels to shape, cutting carpets to fit etc...etc...
I think with a Caterham (or possibly even a Westfield) everything would be ready-built and just bolt / rivet together with very little extra work.
Also had to clean up and refurb all the donor parts - I bought these in the donor pack from Tiger and all were as they came from the scrapyard, so needed stripping, cleaning etc...Same with the rear axle, front uprights and suchlike. Basically it just saved me the time of trawling scrapyards to find the right parts. In future I'd probably find my own donor parts but as a first time builder it was the best option just to be sure I got the correct parts. Had to find a few extra parts myself such as new pads, discs, shoes, drums, springkit, slave cylinders etc..
I suspect Caterham supply all these parts either new or refurbed already, just need fitting.
Would I pick a Caterham next time? Trying to ignore the large price difference I'm still not sure - to me, all the enjoyment I've had from the build has been making stuff myself, making things fit, and achieving a decent finish through my own work. If it all bolted together like Lego I suspect it would be slightly less satisfying to build, although the finished item would undoubtedly be of a higher quality.
Depends what you want - is the build the fun part, or is it just a cheaper path to a finished car than buying a factory-build?
I think with a Caterham (or possibly even a Westfield) everything would be ready-built and just bolt / rivet together with very little extra work.
Also had to clean up and refurb all the donor parts - I bought these in the donor pack from Tiger and all were as they came from the scrapyard, so needed stripping, cleaning etc...Same with the rear axle, front uprights and suchlike. Basically it just saved me the time of trawling scrapyards to find the right parts. In future I'd probably find my own donor parts but as a first time builder it was the best option just to be sure I got the correct parts. Had to find a few extra parts myself such as new pads, discs, shoes, drums, springkit, slave cylinders etc..
I suspect Caterham supply all these parts either new or refurbed already, just need fitting.
Would I pick a Caterham next time? Trying to ignore the large price difference I'm still not sure - to me, all the enjoyment I've had from the build has been making stuff myself, making things fit, and achieving a decent finish through my own work. If it all bolted together like Lego I suspect it would be slightly less satisfying to build, although the finished item would undoubtedly be of a higher quality.
Depends what you want - is the build the fun part, or is it just a cheaper path to a finished car than buying a factory-build?
Edited by jimsupersix on Thursday 29th June 10:50
antony moxey said:
Mikesx13 said:
So what would the weight of a typical Tiger Super Six with 2.0 Pinto be?
640ish kg.
Although you can knock some off by doing the sensible thing and ditching the windscreen, wipers, washers, heater etc.. and fitting an aeroscreen.
Edited by jimsupersix on Thursday 29th June 10:54
antony moxey said:
Mikesx13 said:
I'm starting to see that its not a particular brand I want to be looking for but looking at the seperate elements of chassis, donor vehicle, panels, engine and builder - would this be right?
Right or not? I'd say not - it'd be far easier building a kit from a single manufacturer than trying to put x panels on y chassis using z donor that neither x or y have manufactured brackets for.
To be honest, your best bet is to contact the manufacturers and arrange a factory visit and test run in their demonstrator and then contact the local owners club, find out when their next meet is and tag along and ask lots of questions. It'll be easier than trying to explain everything in detail here.
I'm getting a ride in an old friends Tiger Cat E1 this/next weekend and i'll definately look into the other marques.
I'm just struggling to understand the lack of consistency, different engines, panel materials, chassis, whether they've been well put together or not by the builder etc. etc. (bear in mind i'm coming from a production car all be it heavily 'adjusted' from how it rolled out of the factory) i'm sure all will start to become clear once I start actually looking at them in 'real life'.
Just seen the Sylva Mojo 2 which tickles my taste buds.
From your list, the MK Indy, Tiger Super Six and Sylva / RAW Striker should all make good track cars. I'd say the Striker would be the pick of the bunch and while I'm biased, check out the entry lists for the 750MC kit car championships to see why. Forget about the Robin Hood and probably the Tiger Cat E1 if its going to be an out and out track car.
Engine choice is obviously going to have a huge bearing on how any of the cars perform, in terms of weight and power. Again for track use I'd probably take the Crossflow over the Pinto. Not sure what your budget is, but bike engined cars are quick on track
The Zetec upgrade path is pretty well travelled from both the Pinto and Crossflow, so I'd assume it can't be TOO hard and there are plenty of people that have done it so you can always pick someone's brains if you need to.
As for the Caterham question... Would a Caterham with the same engine as the other cars be quicker on track? Not sure, wouldn't have thought it'd be massively faster that's for sure. It'd probably be superior in other areas, notably fit and finish and interior (although not guaranteed, a lot depends on the builder of the other kit), but for a track car I'd say not worth the premium.
Edit to add - the Mojo 2 should make a good track car too, don't know much about them really though.
Engine choice is obviously going to have a huge bearing on how any of the cars perform, in terms of weight and power. Again for track use I'd probably take the Crossflow over the Pinto. Not sure what your budget is, but bike engined cars are quick on track
The Zetec upgrade path is pretty well travelled from both the Pinto and Crossflow, so I'd assume it can't be TOO hard and there are plenty of people that have done it so you can always pick someone's brains if you need to.
As for the Caterham question... Would a Caterham with the same engine as the other cars be quicker on track? Not sure, wouldn't have thought it'd be massively faster that's for sure. It'd probably be superior in other areas, notably fit and finish and interior (although not guaranteed, a lot depends on the builder of the other kit), but for a track car I'd say not worth the premium.
Edit to add - the Mojo 2 should make a good track car too, don't know much about them really though.
Edited by d-man on Thursday 29th June 13:50
As an ax Caterham owner who trawled the different options before buying, I would say that the Caterham is far better finished as a kit than the rest, comes with all new parts rather than the oil covered scrap yard salvage you will get for your Westy/Tiger/etc.
The tub comes ready set up with the brake lines fuel lines etc NEATLY installed, dash cut and instruments/wiring/fuel tank neatly installed too. Loved the 12 years with J889 HTY (where are you now?) BUT if I was to do it again I would probably build a Phoenix or Fury!!
The tub comes ready set up with the brake lines fuel lines etc NEATLY installed, dash cut and instruments/wiring/fuel tank neatly installed too. Loved the 12 years with J889 HTY (where are you now?) BUT if I was to do it again I would probably build a Phoenix or Fury!!
Mikesx13 said:
splatspeed said:
what exactly do you want to do with the car???
It will be a dedicated track car but I'll be driving it to and from track and do want the option to use it on trackdays in the winter.
for any track car lightness is the key
so you are looking for 2 major factors lots of power and very little weight
good luck
because as you get less weight and more power the price starts to sky rocket
stop at the point the wife starts to beat you with a big stick
sean
Caterhams - the original. They have a higher resale value & I know the factory offered to purchase back your Caterham for a fixed fee dependent on model, age & mileage. Every Caterham is to a set standard & they have been doing it from day 1. They are looked upon in a different light to most Kit cars, so have a different customer pool.
Westfield’s, Tigers etc. Have reasonable quality and have to be cheaper than the Caterhams to sell. They do this by using less R&D cheaper parts & offering a wider choice of equipment. Finished cars very in quality but are mostly good.
Locost, Robin Hood, MK. For those that want a 7 style car but cant afford one. Their market place is very competitive and have to be cheaper than the rest to sell. Most of the offerings are heavy & usually run old engines etc. Build quality is up to the individual, they also have to source most of the gear themselves & fabricate a lot. So expect to see a wide range of finished products.
The 7 look-a-like market is flooded (over 20 manufacturers) so very competitive. Unfortunately a few have gone out of business.
Go to a show and look at the range & quality v money then decide.
Westfield’s, Tigers etc. Have reasonable quality and have to be cheaper than the Caterhams to sell. They do this by using less R&D cheaper parts & offering a wider choice of equipment. Finished cars very in quality but are mostly good.
Locost, Robin Hood, MK. For those that want a 7 style car but cant afford one. Their market place is very competitive and have to be cheaper than the rest to sell. Most of the offerings are heavy & usually run old engines etc. Build quality is up to the individual, they also have to source most of the gear themselves & fabricate a lot. So expect to see a wide range of finished products.
The 7 look-a-like market is flooded (over 20 manufacturers) so very competitive. Unfortunately a few have gone out of business.
Go to a show and look at the range & quality v money then decide.
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