Looking to buy Bike-engined kit - which engine??
Discussion
Hi chaps.
Advices appreciated: I see plenty of tidy 2nd hand 7 and kit cars for sale with bike engines.. plenty of engine options. I'm looking to track and perhaps race in 08. What package should I go for? Ideally I'm looking for 350-400 bhp p/tonne.
Busa, Blackbird, R1, ZZR, Blade..??
So:
Bang for bucks?
Performance?
Driveability?
Reliability?
Tunability?
Servicing?
???
Advices appreciated: I see plenty of tidy 2nd hand 7 and kit cars for sale with bike engines.. plenty of engine options. I'm looking to track and perhaps race in 08. What package should I go for? Ideally I'm looking for 350-400 bhp p/tonne.
Busa, Blackbird, R1, ZZR, Blade..??
So:
Bang for bucks?
Performance?
Driveability?
Reliability?
Tunability?
Servicing?
???
Bang for bucks? ZX12, R1, Blade.
Performance? ZX12 Busa but =£££'s
Driveability? ZX12 Busa Blackbird
Reliability? all of them looked after properly, Blackbird is suspect on track without major oil system mods.
Tunability? all of them, they love turbo's
Servicing? all of them diy servicing.
Performance? ZX12 Busa but =£££'s
Driveability? ZX12 Busa Blackbird
Reliability? all of them looked after properly, Blackbird is suspect on track without major oil system mods.
Tunability? all of them, they love turbo's
Servicing? all of them diy servicing.
If you're definitely planning on racing then your engine choice should be driven by what class you want to race in. Assuming you're considering RGB then Class C (carbed blades) is the most cost effective way of getting on the grid, and the most keenly contested in terms of number of entrants.
Busas etc will put you into Class A against machinery with slightly more open regs, and allowing mid-engined cars, so a bog standard Caterfield / Fury with little spent on it probably wouldnt be quite as competitive as it would be in Class C. R1's etc put you into Class B which I think have similar regs to Class A apart from possibly no mid engine'd cars?
If the racing isn't a definite at the mo, I'd say R1 or ZX12. Having owned a blade BEC then upgraded it to a 2003 R1, Id defintiely go with the R1 over the blade for the couple of hundred extra it would cost to install, both from a performance and reliability (mainly clutch/gearbox) perspective.
Busas etc will put you into Class A against machinery with slightly more open regs, and allowing mid-engined cars, so a bog standard Caterfield / Fury with little spent on it probably wouldnt be quite as competitive as it would be in Class C. R1's etc put you into Class B which I think have similar regs to Class A apart from possibly no mid engine'd cars?
If the racing isn't a definite at the mo, I'd say R1 or ZX12. Having owned a blade BEC then upgraded it to a 2003 R1, Id defintiely go with the R1 over the blade for the couple of hundred extra it would cost to install, both from a performance and reliability (mainly clutch/gearbox) perspective.
Personally on a budget I'd go with a ZX9, more power than an early Blade and a stronger gearbox.
Stuart Taylor Motorsport do all the bits, there are s/h cars available, the engines are cheaper and easier to find cos they're not used in kit cars quite so much as the Blade lump.
Midrange budget, R1. Getting fairly common in kits but are neither fish nor fowl when it comes to racing categories AFAIK.
For power rather than pounds, I'd say ZX12 for the same reasons as the ZX9 unless you're wanting a tuned engine (which, looking at your Esprit, I fancy you might). In which case it's the Hyabusa for me.
And take it from me, currently fighting to get a Blackbird engine into my Luego, decide which kit is the one for you and pick the engine from their list of supported donors. Nothing worse than having to fabricate bespoke mountings and bracketry in the full knowledge that if you had a different kit, it'd bolt in with off-the-shelf parts...
Stuart Taylor Motorsport do all the bits, there are s/h cars available, the engines are cheaper and easier to find cos they're not used in kit cars quite so much as the Blade lump.
Midrange budget, R1. Getting fairly common in kits but are neither fish nor fowl when it comes to racing categories AFAIK.
For power rather than pounds, I'd say ZX12 for the same reasons as the ZX9 unless you're wanting a tuned engine (which, looking at your Esprit, I fancy you might). In which case it's the Hyabusa for me.
And take it from me, currently fighting to get a Blackbird engine into my Luego, decide which kit is the one for you and pick the engine from their list of supported donors. Nothing worse than having to fabricate bespoke mountings and bracketry in the full knowledge that if you had a different kit, it'd bolt in with off-the-shelf parts...
The reason I went for blade over ZX9 is because of gearing. To get the ZX9 geared decently (i.e ~125mph+ max) you either need stupid large wheels/tyres or something like a 3.14 Sierra diff, which are hens teeth so quite expensive. This is especially a problem on a live axle car as the longest diff you can get with the English axle is a 3.54.
The early ZX9 gearboxes were also a bit weak but improved on C/D versions if I remember correctly?
The early ZX9 gearboxes were also a bit weak but improved on C/D versions if I remember correctly?
Edited by Locoblade on Monday 9th April 13:16
Fair enough - not something I've looked into on Sevens.
I used a ZX9 in the prototype LMP but it did have a pretty large rear tyre diameter, in the region of 650mm - not the sort of thing you could achieve on 13s.
Definitely found the gearbox to be excellent and precise, this was using a ZX9-C as I remember. For the price difference there was no contest in getting that generation compared to an A or B.
Anyhow - looks like the 'Blade is favourite.
One other point - if Jon's serious about racing, aren't Stuart Taylor the guys when it comes to BEC seven-style cars? Seem to recall they're the frontrunners.
Then, would the higher gearing on a ZX9 be an advantage on hillclimb and sprint tracks? Doubt you could see 125mph or anything near it at a lot of such events.
Oh, another one. If you're racing, is it not better to go for a Fury / Phoenix? I know we've done the aero advantage thing to death on this forum in the past but it's pretty pointless taking a Seven derivative into a starting grid full of closed body cars if there's a decent straight on the track.
Jon, are you talking of races at Knockhill only, sprint events across Scotland for instance, or a national BEC series? Might have a bearing on the right car to go for.
I used a ZX9 in the prototype LMP but it did have a pretty large rear tyre diameter, in the region of 650mm - not the sort of thing you could achieve on 13s.
Definitely found the gearbox to be excellent and precise, this was using a ZX9-C as I remember. For the price difference there was no contest in getting that generation compared to an A or B.
Anyhow - looks like the 'Blade is favourite.
One other point - if Jon's serious about racing, aren't Stuart Taylor the guys when it comes to BEC seven-style cars? Seem to recall they're the frontrunners.
Then, would the higher gearing on a ZX9 be an advantage on hillclimb and sprint tracks? Doubt you could see 125mph or anything near it at a lot of such events.
Oh, another one. If you're racing, is it not better to go for a Fury / Phoenix? I know we've done the aero advantage thing to death on this forum in the past but it's pretty pointless taking a Seven derivative into a starting grid full of closed body cars if there's a decent straight on the track.
Jon, are you talking of races at Knockhill only, sprint events across Scotland for instance, or a national BEC series? Might have a bearing on the right car to go for.
Yep thats a good point actually, if you're going mid-engined then there aren't as many gearing limitations so the ZX9 is probably worthy of consideration.
Stuart Taylor have mostly focussed on the Phoenix in recent years, their Locost based Seven's haven't really developed a lot I don't think. Of all the Sevenesque cars, Id say the RAW (previously Sylva) Striker is the most well proven and probably best developed possibly along with the Procomp LA Gold which has also been quite succesful, although some of the newcomers like MNR are now producing some very nice kits and developing all the time.
The Phoenix / Fury do seem to be more popular in the RGB for the aero advantages, so yep it would be well worth considering one, as much for the support the respective manufacturers give to RGB as the aero advantages.
Stuart Taylor have mostly focussed on the Phoenix in recent years, their Locost based Seven's haven't really developed a lot I don't think. Of all the Sevenesque cars, Id say the RAW (previously Sylva) Striker is the most well proven and probably best developed possibly along with the Procomp LA Gold which has also been quite succesful, although some of the newcomers like MNR are now producing some very nice kits and developing all the time.
The Phoenix / Fury do seem to be more popular in the RGB for the aero advantages, so yep it would be well worth considering one, as much for the support the respective manufacturers give to RGB as the aero advantages.
Edited by Locoblade on Monday 9th April 19:01
Locoblade said:
Yep thats a good point actually, if you're going mid-engined then there aren't as many gearing limitations so the ZX9 is probably worthy of consideration.
Depends on the drivetrain really - my middy solution was the first to use a rotated engine and short prop to a RWD diff in preference to a chain, so it wasn't possible to adjust gearing using sprockets. So the same limitations on gearing as on Sevenesque stuff with the exception of diff ratios (BMW 3 ser derived instead of Sierra).
We just got away with a larger tyre diameter cos of the styling and size of the car.
My time again with my Locost, I'd have a MNR chassis and some other bodywork (can't stomach the MNR styling). But really I'd be after a Fury / Phoenix instead.
In fact, in light of my ongoing build issues with the Luego I may yet invest in a body/chassis starter kit and use my existing mechanicals to get the damn thing finished sometime this decade...
Well let me know if you decide to do that as Ive got a Phoenix round tube Caged race chassis sitting in my garage that Ive had for about a year but haven't got around to building due to problems with building a garage extension on the side of our house, so is kind-of for sale, although I haven't yet had the heart to advertise it.
wow - tks for all the response chaps..
750MC, Northern BARC, SMRC racing is definite long-term plan as well as the odd sprint etc.
the gearing seems a tricky one to get around - I could easily see 120mph+ in the old Esprit with it's old rickety 910 engine.. about 300bhp p/tonne. What are these higher spec 7s running up to on usual gearing? As noted I'm giving up a lot of power due to losing my backer so looking for a good punch.
The aero is a concern if I want to do a range of Uk tracks - any way to get around? Any way to get say add aero to a Stryker to make it competitive or is it really a non-starter? Frotn end seems to be in need of most treatment tho reararches etc look tricky.
Phoenix Busa, B'bird, ZX12 or Blade seem to be the consensus. I want to be abel to drive to track for my local and get out wiht the biker boys - hence my initial reluctance to go for a raddy etc (that and the money). Whereas 8K seems to buy a nice spec 7 type..
any other mid-engined options??
linky for MNR?
750MC, Northern BARC, SMRC racing is definite long-term plan as well as the odd sprint etc.
the gearing seems a tricky one to get around - I could easily see 120mph+ in the old Esprit with it's old rickety 910 engine.. about 300bhp p/tonne. What are these higher spec 7s running up to on usual gearing? As noted I'm giving up a lot of power due to losing my backer so looking for a good punch.
The aero is a concern if I want to do a range of Uk tracks - any way to get around? Any way to get say add aero to a Stryker to make it competitive or is it really a non-starter? Frotn end seems to be in need of most treatment tho reararches etc look tricky.
Phoenix Busa, B'bird, ZX12 or Blade seem to be the consensus. I want to be abel to drive to track for my local and get out wiht the biker boys - hence my initial reluctance to go for a raddy etc (that and the money). Whereas 8K seems to buy a nice spec 7 type..
any other mid-engined options??
linky for MNR?
www.pistonheads.com/sales/146837.htm
??
or this with a bike engine.. www.pistonheads.com/sales/151814.htm
not sure how reliable the Cossie set-up would be. Wheels would need to change + a few other bits on the car but otherwise suspension, brakes and boots..>?
??
or this with a bike engine.. www.pistonheads.com/sales/151814.htm
not sure how reliable the Cossie set-up would be. Wheels would need to change + a few other bits on the car but otherwise suspension, brakes and boots..>?
Edited by M Blur on Wednesday 11th April 01:08
M Blur said:
wow - tks for all the response chaps..
750MC, Northern BARC, SMRC racing is definite long-term plan as well as the odd sprint etc.
the gearing seems a tricky one to get around - I could easily see 120mph+ in the old Esprit with it's old rickety 910 engine.. about 300bhp p/tonne. What are these higher spec 7s running up to on usual gearing? As noted I'm giving up a lot of power due to losing my backer so looking for a good punch.
The aero is a concern if I want to do a range of Uk tracks - any way to get around? Any way to get say add aero to a Stryker to make it competitive or is it really a non-starter? Frotn end seems to be in need of most treatment tho reararches etc look tricky.
Phoenix Busa, B'bird, ZX12 or Blade seem to be the consensus. I want to be abel to drive to track for my local and get out wiht the biker boys - hence my initial reluctance to go for a raddy etc (that and the money). Whereas 8K seems to buy a nice spec 7 type..
any other mid-engined options??
linky for MNR?
750MC, Northern BARC, SMRC racing is definite long-term plan as well as the odd sprint etc.
the gearing seems a tricky one to get around - I could easily see 120mph+ in the old Esprit with it's old rickety 910 engine.. about 300bhp p/tonne. What are these higher spec 7s running up to on usual gearing? As noted I'm giving up a lot of power due to losing my backer so looking for a good punch.
The aero is a concern if I want to do a range of Uk tracks - any way to get around? Any way to get say add aero to a Stryker to make it competitive or is it really a non-starter? Frotn end seems to be in need of most treatment tho reararches etc look tricky.
Phoenix Busa, B'bird, ZX12 or Blade seem to be the consensus. I want to be abel to drive to track for my local and get out wiht the biker boys - hence my initial reluctance to go for a raddy etc (that and the money). Whereas 8K seems to buy a nice spec 7 type..
any other mid-engined options??
linky for MNR?
If you are intent on racing in future, I'd definitely be looking at an enclosed-body version like a Sylva Striker Mk4 / Fisher Fury / Stuart Taylor Phoenix / SSC Stylus, with a flyscreen. There's nothing you can do with a 7 type to get near these in terms of top end aero efficiency. On a racetrack, you'll easily lose 10mph top end which more than makes up for the maybe 50kg saving.
If you were purely doing sprints and hillclimbs, it's less critical and in fact the lower weight might more than offset top end speed, for the second or two that you're breaching 100mph on a hillclimb aero's pretty negligible.
You'd get some benefit from front corner strakes and getting the underbody smooth. A rear diffuser will give a better trade of downforce vs drag than spoilers and splitters will. Most important though is making sure the aero balance remains fairly equal and constant as speed rises, if anything increasing rear downforce with speed. The last thing you want is more front downforce than rear in fast corners.
Not familiar with the regs to know whether downforce-inducing aids are permitted but if they are, you can bet the front runners will have them.
That WLR with a full screen and interior is a great road car and occasional tracker but I would think not very suited to racing.
The STM Phoenix is a great place to start, you might find the Fireblade a little slower than you might like on paper, but then again, the challenge of racing is getting the last ounce out of the car and the more powerful it is, the harder that is to do!
Some class B cars beat some class A cars, I generally see the slow class As as chequebook drivers who should spend some money on driver training not a more powerful engine... swingeing stereotype I know, but frequently true.
FWIW I've got a fair bit of track experience under my belt in any number of respectably fast cars but I don't think I'd embark on my first full series in a Busa powered car...
If you did want to step up, I understand the Blackbird engine has the same mountings as the pre-injection Fireblade (don't quote me on this, very much secondhand info!). The Blackbird is renowned for not liking track work unless you fit an Accusump or a well baffled sump. I've got a Blackbird engine for my BEC and I have the modded sump, and am still wondering whether I should get an accusump too.
Oh, I'm pretty sure that Phoenix would benefit from 13" rims and tyres, provided they'll fit over the brake package. Those 15" wheels look a bit of a sop to styling to me. A lightweight car like that won't overload 13" tyres and in racing, low weight is priority two - low rotational inertia is priority one. I'd budget £500 for wheels and tyres.
Have you tried racecarsdirect.com? Pretty sure I've seen a couple of bike engined 750MC cars for sale on there too.
HTH
You need this...........
www.pistonheads.com/sales/147582.htm
Well proven set up in RGB, has the stronger E gearbox, has a 3.54 diff, so top end is 130 on the limiter.Never ran out of track anywhere.
And I am open to negotiation..........
F
www.pistonheads.com/sales/147582.htm
Well proven set up in RGB, has the stronger E gearbox, has a 3.54 diff, so top end is 130 on the limiter.Never ran out of track anywhere.
And I am open to negotiation..........
F
Hi Lee
Looks like someone will get a bargain! Did you mean 3.14 diff though, because the ad mentions IRS but when talking about a 3.54, ive only ever heard them mentioned as a live axle ratio, not Sierra? Also I don't think you'd get near 130mph with a 3.54 diff and the wheel/tyres you have?
Unfortunately, the second hand info is incorrect I think, from what I remember the 'bird is quite a bit bigger/heavier than the blade and Ive not heard of anyone converting blade to 'bird without needing to change the engine cradle.
Looks like someone will get a bargain! Did you mean 3.14 diff though, because the ad mentions IRS but when talking about a 3.54, ive only ever heard them mentioned as a live axle ratio, not Sierra? Also I don't think you'd get near 130mph with a 3.54 diff and the wheel/tyres you have?
FNG said:
If you did want to step up, I understand the Blackbird engine has the same mountings as the pre-injection Fireblade (don't quote me on this, very much secondhand info!).
Unfortunately, the second hand info is incorrect I think, from what I remember the 'bird is quite a bit bigger/heavier than the blade and Ive not heard of anyone converting blade to 'bird without needing to change the engine cradle.
I went for a 2003 R1. I wanted FI and not carbs and the early R1 FI injection engines were more powerful than the blade engines and I'd heard the blade gearbox wasn't as strong and I didn't like the characteristics in my bike much. The R1 engine doesn't need a dry sump system and has worked in sidecars with just a baffle plate for a while.
I was put off kawasaki engines after having a 6r which lunched its gearbox and timing chain tensioner in the first 5k miles from new... doing some reading on the net suggests their build quality isn't as good as honda and yamaha.
I was put off kawasaki engines after having a 6r which lunched its gearbox and timing chain tensioner in the first 5k miles from new... doing some reading on the net suggests their build quality isn't as good as honda and yamaha.
Edited by dern on Wednesday 11th April 13:41
tks guys.. noted this one - mow much to sva a car like this, MOT etc?
www.pistonheads.com/sales/122416.htm
Fisher looks v.good at sub-6K - any more squeeze than a 7 to get in>? are the larger wheels for top-end?
The top gearing limit is a worry as there are plenty of tracks you can easily ton over and don't fancy sitting on the limiter half way down hanger... am I better going for a non-bike engined car?
Couple of Raw Strykers with B'bird engines - so these have better aero than conventional 7s>? The front end stil seems a bit of a problem.
What about sth like a Westy XTR-2>? Clearance seems the major problem in this day and age for any road work.
I want the car for track and road initially so after bang for bucks - sub-10K seems to be able to secure any of the top-end engines in a 7-type. However all points noted re for racing so all taken on board. Happy to enter myself as a chequebook racer...lol Bear in mind I'm giving up a 600bhp p/tonne Esprit project so I'm one of those dasterdly power junkies rather than a professor of the finer art of racecraft..
[confused]
www.pistonheads.com/sales/122416.htm
Fisher looks v.good at sub-6K - any more squeeze than a 7 to get in>? are the larger wheels for top-end?
The top gearing limit is a worry as there are plenty of tracks you can easily ton over and don't fancy sitting on the limiter half way down hanger... am I better going for a non-bike engined car?
Couple of Raw Strykers with B'bird engines - so these have better aero than conventional 7s>? The front end stil seems a bit of a problem.
What about sth like a Westy XTR-2>? Clearance seems the major problem in this day and age for any road work.
I want the car for track and road initially so after bang for bucks - sub-10K seems to be able to secure any of the top-end engines in a 7-type. However all points noted re for racing so all taken on board. Happy to enter myself as a chequebook racer...lol Bear in mind I'm giving up a 600bhp p/tonne Esprit project so I'm one of those dasterdly power junkies rather than a professor of the finer art of racecraft..
[confused]
this really caught my eye along with the other Stryker and the blue 'Formula 47..
www.pistonheads.com/sales/143526.htm
The regular Striker isnt any better aero than any other Locaterfield (Sevenesque) car, I think the "Striker" Mk4 mentioned above is also known as the Sylva Clubmans and is basically an early evolution of the Phoenix, a Striker chassis with an enclosed body very similar to the Phoenix.
Gearing on most bike engine's isn't really a problem, especially with a sevenesque car, which will need a good 200bhp to get much above 130mph regardless of the origins of the engine. With most bike engines you can gear to well above 140mph with the right choice of diff and still reasonable sized wheels if you want to, but even in an enclosed body you'll honestly struggle to max it out on any UK circuit. From that you can also deduct that you won't be keeping up with supercars on long straights, Ive been to Spa with my R1 locost and had 911 GT3s stonk past at about +20-30mph, but over a lap I was still quicker. To match that kind of top end speed though where outright power rules over power/weight ratio, you're going to need 250-300bhp even in a 500kg car to have a hope of keeping up in a straight line at those really high speeds.
The last red/black Striker you linked to is a nice car, I saw it a couple of weeks ago and it looks very well built/specced and I like the colour scheme too. The only thing that would put me off is the Blackbird engine in a longitudinal setup, which even with Accusumps have not been 100% resistant to surge induced blow-ups, I wouldnt mind betting the "second Blackbird engine stripped for spares if required" was a casualty of that.
Gearing on most bike engine's isn't really a problem, especially with a sevenesque car, which will need a good 200bhp to get much above 130mph regardless of the origins of the engine. With most bike engines you can gear to well above 140mph with the right choice of diff and still reasonable sized wheels if you want to, but even in an enclosed body you'll honestly struggle to max it out on any UK circuit. From that you can also deduct that you won't be keeping up with supercars on long straights, Ive been to Spa with my R1 locost and had 911 GT3s stonk past at about +20-30mph, but over a lap I was still quicker. To match that kind of top end speed though where outright power rules over power/weight ratio, you're going to need 250-300bhp even in a 500kg car to have a hope of keeping up in a straight line at those really high speeds.
The last red/black Striker you linked to is a nice car, I saw it a couple of weeks ago and it looks very well built/specced and I like the colour scheme too. The only thing that would put me off is the Blackbird engine in a longitudinal setup, which even with Accusumps have not been 100% resistant to surge induced blow-ups, I wouldnt mind betting the "second Blackbird engine stripped for spares if required" was a casualty of that.
Edited by Locoblade on Wednesday 11th April 19:40
could I dry sump it..
am I better then to go for a non-bike engined car... I see a few other options around?
130 v/max on most circuits would do.. and it'll take time to acclimatise I'm sure.
One good thing is I have a friendly Honda dealer who could service the car routinely
when you say surge do you mean from long sweepers or simply acceleration/deceleration in the sump>?
am I better then to go for a non-bike engined car... I see a few other options around?
130 v/max on most circuits would do.. and it'll take time to acclimatise I'm sure.
One good thing is I have a friendly Honda dealer who could service the car routinely
when you say surge do you mean from long sweepers or simply acceleration/deceleration in the sump>?
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