Kit Car Floorpan

[notyetagenius]

Hi.

I'm new to this forum, but have been interested in kit cars and drawing / designing bits and pieces for quite a few years.

Now I've finally decided to take the plunge and design a car and possibly build it.

As its getting more and more difficult to obtain good quality VW Beetle floorpans, I was wondering whether anyone knows of any alternatives which could be used.

For instance, does the new VW Beetle or the VW Transporter van use a similar floorpan which a kit car could sit onto?

[tribbles]

I wouldn't say that VW Beetle floorpans are difficult to get hold of - there were a heck of a lot of them produced, and even if you find one in a bit of a sorry state, the floorpan itself can be easily replaced (with a bit of welding).

However, using a VW floorpan is a bit ... '70s - although it does get you somewhere. Pretty much all kits are now spaceframes.

[cymtriks]

notyetagenius said:

Hi.

I'm new to this forum, but have been interested in kit cars and drawing / designing bits and pieces for quite a few years.

Now I've finally decided to take the plunge and design a car and possibly build it.

As its getting more and more difficult to obtain good quality VW Beetle floorpans, I was wondering whether anyone knows of any alternatives which could be used.

For instance, does the new VW Beetle or the VW Transporter van use a similar floorpan which a kit car could sit onto?

If you are "interested in kit cars and drawing / designing bits and pieces for quite a few years" then I really do wonder exactly how much interest and what sort of bits you are thinking of. Unless of course you mean thirty years when you say "a few years" and haven't checked what is going on since or you are only interested in dune buggies!

Hardly any kits use old VW chassis.

The new Beetle uses a Golf chassis, as do the Skoda, Seat and Audi cars of this size. (Yes, they are all exactly the same underneath)

There is no reason why you couldn't incorporate a modern floorpan into a kit car but it probably isn't worth it. Modern chassis floorpans are not capable of supporting a car when you remove the rest of the cars structure. By the time you'd reinforced them and changed a few parts to suit your car you'd be well on the way to designing your own anyway.

A typical modern kit car uses a fabricated steel chassis with steel sheet and/or aluminium paneling. There are three basic types; backbone (TVR, 60s Lotus Elan, Lotus Esprit), spaceframe (Caterham 7 and all copies such as Westfield or the Locost) and ladder frame (most Cobra replicas and NG sportscars). Equally well designed the spaceframe will probably result in the lightest, fastest but least practical car while the ladder frame will be heavier but more practical. The backbone type is probably more suited to low volume production hence its popularity with TVR, Lotus, Marcos. Having said that, ability is strongly related to design so make a bodge of any type and you will negate the supposed advantages of that type very quickly.

Some very useful sites for home builders are
LaBala
Meerkat
DP1 (dpcars)

Each of which details the design and construction of a new car design.

What sort of kit car do you have in mind?

[Avocet]

Matra tried this approach in the 70s and 80s with the Matra Simca Bagheera and the Matra Murena. Both pretty enough cars but almost impossible to restore because of the way the fibreglass is riveted and bonded to the steel floorpan.

I have a feeling that the old Fiasta-based Quantum floorpans were (effectively) made from moulds taken off a steel Fiesta floorpan with inserts to accept the bolts. If you can get similar stifness and strength (not easy with fibreglass) to the steel, this could be a better bet.

[notyetagenius]

Hi and thank you to everyone who replied to my question, although nobody actually answered the question as such.

The car I have designed is a bit of a mixture, the best way to describe it would be as a cross between a Nova (Sterling in the USA) kit car and a Porsche 917, as far removed from a dune buggy as you can get.

The reason I chose the VW Beetle floorpan is simply because I cannot weld and don't fancy attempting such a project, especially when people's safety is at risk.

Besides, if you remove the Beetle bodyshell from it's floorpan you still have a running chassis, complete with suspension, engine, brakes etc.

Why go to all the work involved in building everything from scratch when its there in the first place, and I can spend as much time as possible driving the car, isn't that why we build these masterpieces in the first place???

As I've worked on a number of VW floorpans in the past, I'm well used to them and wondered if there was an up-to-date vehicle using the same sort of floorpan set-up.

[grahambell]

Avocet said:

I have a feeling that the old Fiasta-based Quantum floorpans were (effectively) made from moulds taken off a steel Fiesta floorpan with inserts to accept the bolts.

As an owner I can tell you that the Mk2 Quantum floorpan is completely different to a Fiesta and I'm pretty sure the Mk1 was as well.

In reply to the original post, no, there are no vehicles made today using the same sort of floorpan as old Beetles.

If you really don't fancy a welded chassis then maybe you should consider what Avocet suggested and look at making the entire structure out of glass fibre.

Quantum, GTM, Adrenaline Motorsport, Midas, Rochdale and even Lotus either make or have made cars with composite monocoque bodyshells.

Do it right and you end up with a very strong but very light structure. And no rust.

[LocoBlade]

notyetagenius said:

Why go to all the work involved in building everything from scratch when its there in the first place, and I can spend as much time as possible driving the car, isn't that why we build these masterpieces in the first place???

Errm no

Each to their own and all that, but the reason the majority of people built kit cars is to get a car with performance / handling that is far superior to a normal tintop, not for the looks alone. If you just use a chassis from a tintop you inherit all the bad things about it (excessive weight, compromised handling etc) so other than it looking different, whats the point really.

Having said that, the Fiero from the US seemed to be popular for bodywork conversions a few years ago, I think because it had a seperate ladder chassis. There are also "kits" out there that do transform modern cars with monocoque bodyshells (ie no seperate chassis), the Mk2 Toyota MR2 seems popular for "Ferrari" bodywork conversions, and there is/was an RS200 replica based on a Maestro(!) but god knows why people would want to do such things, they never look right and you've still got the same performance and engine noise as the underlying car so you're not going to fool anyone with a nouse of car knowledge.

Chris

[Sam_68]

notyetagenius said:

...nobody actually answered the question as such.

OK...

notyetagenius said:

its getting more and more difficult to obtain good quality VW Beetle floorpans, I was wondering whether anyone knows of any alternatives which could be used.

Many kit car manufacturers would sell you a chassis. The Porsche 356 replica manufacturers will probably even sell you a replacement Beetle chassis, if you really want one.

Depends on your budget. Other production cars with a separate chassis that spring to mind include:

Triumph Herald/Spitfire: Good spares supply, but dictates front engine and the rear suspension design isn't very good.

Reliant Kitten: Nice little ladder frame (as far as ladder frames go), but the running gear isn't going to give you high performance and, again, dictates front engine location.

Lotus/Spyder Engineering: Both will sell you a replacement backbone chassis for the 60's/70's Lotus cars, so you have a choice of front (Elan/+2/Elite/Eclat/Excel) or mid (Europa/Esprit) engine.

Lotus Elise: Bonded aluminium tub. State of the art, but 3-dimensional nature (particularly front & rear bulkhead positions) would dictate your design to some extent.

You could pick up a cosmetically damaged mid-engined Lotus (either Esprit or Elise) for around £3-£4K, which may sound a lot, but remember that you'd be getting a thoroughly well-designed chassis with high performance running gear. You'd need to be careful to ensure that the actual chassis wasn't damaged, though, since any distortion on either the backbone generation or Elise-type chassis is not repairable.

notyetagenius said:

For instance, does the new VW Beetle or the VW Transporter van use a similar floorpan which a kit car could sit onto?

Cymtriks did answer this: No. The VW Beetle uses a Golf floorpan and the current VW Transporter is a completely different animal.

As Cymtriks explained, modern 'floorpans' rely on the rest of the unitary body/chassis structure for adequate strength, so it's not really practical to rebody them much beyond the sort of fake Ferrari bolt-on body kits that you see for Toyota MR2's and Mazda MX5's.

[Davi]

notyetagenius said:

The reason I chose the VW Beetle floorpan is simply because I cannot weld and don't fancy attempting such a project, especially when people's safety is at risk.

I would suggest that this alone would preclude you from taking your wishes any further. I do not think it would be possible to scratch build a car without the ability to weld, (by think, I mean from experience)

If this is the bit that worries you most, why not buy a decent, developed chassis package from one of the current kit manufacturers and just design your own body to fit it? The beetle chassis is... well pants really. That's coming from a Beetle lover and previous restorer...

[Mr2Mike]

Davi said:

notyetagenius said:

The reason I chose the VW Beetle floorpan is simply because I cannot weld

I would suggest that this alone would preclude you from taking your wishes any further. I do not think it would be possible to scratch build a car without the ability to weld,

I tend to agree. That said welding is not a difficult art to master to the level required to make a structuraly sound chassis. Why not enrol in an evening class at a local college? It's a very useful skill to have anyway.

[fuoriserie]

notyetagenius said:

As I've worked on a number of VW floorpans in the past, I'm well used to them and wondered if there was an up-to-date vehicle using the same sort of floorpan set-up.

Not that I know of, but you could try and search in the dune buggy scene, or if you have a friend in Mexico, you could try to import a Fusca.

That was the last Beetle sold in that market, but with a macpherson front suspension......

I would consider looking at a modern mid-engine chassis, and then design your new kitcar over it.

Quite a few good mid-engine chassis are available, and you can customise it to your liking, with different modern engines and other...look at Sylva, Marlin,Mev, and a few more that I can't remember....

Good liuck with your new kitcar project

Edited by fuoriserie on Monday 18th June 18:09

[notyetagenius]

Thanks to everyone who replied, I get the idea, as usual I've picked a bummer of a project.

Thanks especially to fuoriserie for your suggestion about getting a friend in Mexico to import a beetle, I'm not being smart and I really appreciate your advise, but geograpically thats not very practical as you seem to have formed the impression that I live in America, whereas I actually live in Ireland.

Its a pity really as I have put together a really nice design.

Anyone know where I can buy a Nova / Soverign?.......

[notyetagenius]

My mistake, I meant to say Sterling kit car not Soverign...

[fuoriserie]

notyetagenius said:

Thanks to everyone who replied, I get the idea, as usual I've picked a bummer of a project.

Thanks especially to fuoriserie for your suggestion about getting a friend in Mexico to import a beetle, I'm not being smart and I really appreciate your advise, but geograpically thats not very practical as you seem to have formed the impression that I live in America, whereas I actually live in Ireland.

Its a pity really as I have put together a really nice design.

Anyone know where I can buy a Nova / Soverign?.......

I did.!!!, why not try the eagleowners club in the UK, I'm not a member but I do browse on their forum once in awhile, and they do have a lot of info on your type of car.

TEAC is having the old Eagle re-ingeenered as a mid-engine with toyota mr2 mechanicals.....I'm sure they can give out some info for you.
http://www.teacsportscars.co.uk/Main%20Menu.htm

http://www.eaglecarclub.proboards25.com/
http://www.eagleownersclub.org.uk/

I hope it helps

Ciao
Italo

Edited by fuoriserie on Tuesday 19th June 08:21

[notyetagenius]

Once again, many thanks for your suggestion fuoriserie, I had a look at the Eagle website and a link pointing towards an Eagle for sale on Ebay, unfortunetely, errr how do I put this... I don't like it.

I prefer an enclosed car which might look at home both on the road and racing around the Le Mans 24 hour race.

Thanks anyway.

[fuoriserie]

Maybe this chassis looks interesting for you...

http://www.rorty-design.com/content/beetle.htm


I have no more info..........

Edited by fuoriserie on Tuesday 19th June 08:52

[Davi]

notyetagenius said:

Thanks to everyone who replied, I get the idea, as usual I've picked a bummer of a project.

Not really, just maybe not approaching it in quite the right way. No reason that you can't continue along different lines, or if really set on it with the beetle chassis, I'd just suggest you sit and ponder for a while what you really want to achieve out of this. Even with a beetle chassis this is going to be a looooong project - at the end of it, are you going to be happy with something that doesn't handle or go well? (or at least, as well as it could). If you are in it purely for the appearance (nothing wrong with that) then maybe a beetle chassis would suit your needs.

I would still suggest that you need to learn to do at least basic welding to a reasonable standard. Beetle chassis are not exactly known for rust resistance, and there will be 101 bits of metal you'll need to join together. It's not hard to learn but will be utterly invaluable to you in a project build.