Best older/affordable kit car powerplant
Discussion
Hi,
Having gained quite a lot of information recently, I've narrowed down my search to three models in order of preference,
Sylva Leader
Dutton B+ or S1 Phaeton
Vindicator Sprint
These are all front engined, lightish, loosely seven inspired cars from the 80s or early 90s. The question is, of the engines likely to be found in them (so no audi turbos or expensive K-series installations) what are the comparative strengths of each? At a guess I'd say it was something like....
Ford Crossflow - Light weight(?) huge ammount of tuning expertise around
Ford Pinto - Plentiful, heavier
Ford Zetec 1.8/2.0 - in later engine conversions, arguably the best of the 4 cylinders??
Ford Essex V6 - too heavy
Fiat twin cam 1600 - ?
Fiat twin cam 2000 - ?
Rover V8 - not much heavier than the '4s I'm told. Ok, 160hp isn't very good for a 3.5 V8, but you'd spend a fortune tuning a Pinto to produce that! Sounds nice too
Erm, what have I got wrong or missed out?
Can anyone tell me a bit more about the Fiat TC - I get the impression they were the engine of choice for kits a few years back? Are they delicate and Italian or is that just me applying an outdated stereotype?
Edit: It's for a live axle car, so 150hp ish should be plenty!
Having gained quite a lot of information recently, I've narrowed down my search to three models in order of preference,
Sylva Leader
Dutton B+ or S1 Phaeton
Vindicator Sprint
These are all front engined, lightish, loosely seven inspired cars from the 80s or early 90s. The question is, of the engines likely to be found in them (so no audi turbos or expensive K-series installations) what are the comparative strengths of each? At a guess I'd say it was something like....
Ford Crossflow - Light weight(?) huge ammount of tuning expertise around
Ford Pinto - Plentiful, heavier
Ford Zetec 1.8/2.0 - in later engine conversions, arguably the best of the 4 cylinders??
Ford Essex V6 - too heavy
Fiat twin cam 1600 - ?
Fiat twin cam 2000 - ?
Rover V8 - not much heavier than the '4s I'm told. Ok, 160hp isn't very good for a 3.5 V8, but you'd spend a fortune tuning a Pinto to produce that! Sounds nice too
Erm, what have I got wrong or missed out?
Can anyone tell me a bit more about the Fiat TC - I get the impression they were the engine of choice for kits a few years back? Are they delicate and Italian or is that just me applying an outdated stereotype?
Edit: It's for a live axle car, so 150hp ish should be plenty!
Edited by Chris71 on Tuesday 17th July 13:20
Zetec hardly falls into the older/affordable category and you'll find very few Duttons/Vindicators/Leaders fitted with them.
There are a lot of myths around regarding Rover V8's... they are not a huge amount heavier than a Pinto, but they are heavier and the Pinto itself is generally regarded as an overweight boat anchor, when it comes to installation in lightweight kit cars. Also, due to gearbox/bellhousing size, you tend to find that Rover installations place the engine further forwards, hence exacerbating the effects of the additional weight. The torque gives a very different driving experience, too... some people like it, but most find that it overwhelms the chassis response on a light kit car and turns it into a crude, point-and-squirt machine rather than something that feels balanced and nimble.
The Ford V6 has little to commend it. It's heavy, under-powered, not especially reliable and not the easiest to tune.
Of the engines you've listed, Fiat Twin Cam would be my favourite, though tuning parts and expertise are getting a little scarce these days, followed by the good old Crossflow, which is crude but relatively light, powerful and reliable.
I guess bottom line is that if you are on a Vindicator/Leader/Dutton budget, you go with whatever engine comes fitted to the car, though. Most Vindicators will be Pintos, because they were single-donor Sierra based kits; Leaders tend to be Fiat Twin Cam or Crossflow (mainly because these were the designer/manufacturer's favoured installations), and lots of Duttons tend to be Ford, mainly (though there is probably more variety than with the other marques).
The other engine worth a mention if you come across it (though not often used in the cars you are looking at) is the Alfa Twin Cam. It needs the inline gearbox from the Alfa Spider/105 series, though, which isn't as easy to find as an old Ford box.
There are a lot of myths around regarding Rover V8's... they are not a huge amount heavier than a Pinto, but they are heavier and the Pinto itself is generally regarded as an overweight boat anchor, when it comes to installation in lightweight kit cars. Also, due to gearbox/bellhousing size, you tend to find that Rover installations place the engine further forwards, hence exacerbating the effects of the additional weight. The torque gives a very different driving experience, too... some people like it, but most find that it overwhelms the chassis response on a light kit car and turns it into a crude, point-and-squirt machine rather than something that feels balanced and nimble.
The Ford V6 has little to commend it. It's heavy, under-powered, not especially reliable and not the easiest to tune.
Of the engines you've listed, Fiat Twin Cam would be my favourite, though tuning parts and expertise are getting a little scarce these days, followed by the good old Crossflow, which is crude but relatively light, powerful and reliable.
I guess bottom line is that if you are on a Vindicator/Leader/Dutton budget, you go with whatever engine comes fitted to the car, though. Most Vindicators will be Pintos, because they were single-donor Sierra based kits; Leaders tend to be Fiat Twin Cam or Crossflow (mainly because these were the designer/manufacturer's favoured installations), and lots of Duttons tend to be Ford, mainly (though there is probably more variety than with the other marques).
The other engine worth a mention if you come across it (though not often used in the cars you are looking at) is the Alfa Twin Cam. It needs the inline gearbox from the Alfa Spider/105 series, though, which isn't as easy to find as an old Ford box.
Thanks for the reply.
I'm resrticting myself to the earlier, 5 link B+, Malaga and Paheton Dutton-wise ratehr than the cart sprung Cortina based cars, so most are on their second engine by now and there are plenty of V8s and twincams going round (think I've seen as many as crossflows and no pintos yet)
I know the crossflow can be modified to silly bhp and has been as the mainstay of clubmans cars for a while. Any idea how much this ways compares to the other '4s? (say the Fiat TC)
Interesting point on the RV8 bellhousing. Guess this depends on the chassis to a degree. Could also argue this is only really a problem if the car originally had much finesse to recomend it! Would ruin a nice nimble Sylva, but maybe in a more agriculutural Dutton it would be more in keeping with the experience?
I have seen a couple of Zetec engined Phaetons. One of which was said to be in very good spec/condition and still went for peanuts because it's a Dutton.
I'm resrticting myself to the earlier, 5 link B+, Malaga and Paheton Dutton-wise ratehr than the cart sprung Cortina based cars, so most are on their second engine by now and there are plenty of V8s and twincams going round (think I've seen as many as crossflows and no pintos yet)
I know the crossflow can be modified to silly bhp and has been as the mainstay of clubmans cars for a while. Any idea how much this ways compares to the other '4s? (say the Fiat TC)
Interesting point on the RV8 bellhousing. Guess this depends on the chassis to a degree. Could also argue this is only really a problem if the car originally had much finesse to recomend it! Would ruin a nice nimble Sylva, but maybe in a more agriculutural Dutton it would be more in keeping with the experience?
I have seen a couple of Zetec engined Phaetons. One of which was said to be in very good spec/condition and still went for peanuts because it's a Dutton.
Chris71 said:
I know the crossflow can be modified to silly bhp and has been as the mainstay of clubmans cars for a while. Any idea how much this ways compares to the other '4s? (say the Fiat TC)
I think that for equivalent power output, the Twin Cam will be better mannered than the Crossflow. My Sylva is fitted with a semi-race Crossflow that gives somewhere in the region of 155bhp, but it's not a pleasant device to drive in traffic; it spits, coughs and fouls its plugs, only clearing its throat above 3,500rpm and revving to 7,800 to make the power. By comparison, a 150bhp Twin Cam will be a lot torquier, more manageable in traffic and will need less revs.Highly tuned Crossflows (anything above 135bhp) tend not to be particularly friendly...
Chris71 said:
Could also argue this is only really a problem if the car originally had much finesse to recomend it! Would ruin a nice nimble Sylva, but maybe in a more agriculutural Dutton it would be more in keeping with the experience?
... or you could argue that it needs all the finesse it can get. An unruly chassis will become even more unruly if it's overloaded with torque and the weight distribution is screwed up. A lot of people get fixated on performance and power figures, losing sight of the fact that brute force isn't really what lightweight sports cars are about. Don't worry - if you've never driven this sort of car before, a 120bhp Crossflow will offer plenty of thrills and much more exploitable handling!I expect Pintos will be the most commonly used in these cars. Although quite heavy they are simple, robust, relatively easy and cheap to tune up to around 140bhp (I think a 140bhp crossflow would be expensive).
Zetecs can be bought quite cheaply as can Vauxhall XE engines and both are popular replacements for Pintos.
RV8 Duttons seem to crop up from time to time at very good prices though. (great donor for a V8 Locost!)
Zetecs can be bought quite cheaply as can Vauxhall XE engines and both are popular replacements for Pintos.
RV8 Duttons seem to crop up from time to time at very good prices though. (great donor for a V8 Locost!)
Chris71 said:
Rover V8 - not much heavier than the '4s I'm told. Ok, 160hp isn't very good for a 3.5 V8, but you'd spend a fortune tuning a Pinto to produce that!
The RV8 IS NOT light weight.Marquis Rex posted a totting up of all the weights of the various bits and it came to 220Kg. That's over 480lbs. The LS1 5.7 liter chevy V8 weighs in at circa 20 to 30 lbs more IIRC.
People THINK it is light weight because they've all heard that it's a light weight alloy engine etc etc.
What they don't consider is that a 50s "light weight" design only had to be lighter than the huge iron blocked V8s of the time. A modern bigger V8, like the BWM or Jag units, weighs circa 200Kg or 440lbs. That's lighter and much more powerful than the RV8.
I'm surprised that Zetecs are discounted as too new or expensive, they've been around for a while now and surely shouldn't cost that much to install compared to an older engine of the same size and power? Or am I missing some huge hidden cost!
The Zetec gets my thumbs up. Main reasons I chose this for mine:
1. Widely available (may not be so true today, as Mondeo's seem to be getting rarer).
2. Good range of tuning options available, so relatively cheap.
3. Reputation for being pretty unburstable (at least in standard form - and 150bhp is not pushing it much).
4. If you get a pre-July '95 one (and register the car that way), you don't need to fit a cat.
1. Widely available (may not be so true today, as Mondeo's seem to be getting rarer).
2. Good range of tuning options available, so relatively cheap.
3. Reputation for being pretty unburstable (at least in standard form - and 150bhp is not pushing it much).
4. If you get a pre-July '95 one (and register the car that way), you don't need to fit a cat.
cymtriks said:
I'm surprised that Zetecs are discounted as too new or expensive, they've been around for a while now and surely shouldn't cost that much to install compared to an older engine of the same size and power? Or am I missing some huge hidden cost!
I think you need to keep a perspective on the OP's budget, here... we are talking about someone in the market for a Dutton/Leader/Vindicator!If you happen to come across a suitable car already running a Zetec, for a reasonable price, then sure, go for it; it's a great engine... but they're not particularly common in Duttons/Vindicators/Leaders.
Otherwise, it's all very well sitting behind our keyboards saying, 'Yeah, Zetec, great engine - will only cost you £400 for the engine, £100 for the inlet manifold, £300 for a decent set of carbs, £150 for the water rail, £350 for the inline sump and £400 for the fabricated exhaust manifold', but you've got to realise that a Zetec + nice, simple, bolt-together installation kit would add up to close to the value of the car itself!
... and if the OP had the skills and knowledge to be developing his own installation to keep the budget more sensible, he'd hardly be asking basic advice from us Muppets on which is the best engine in the first place!
Reality check, please, guys!
Sam_68 said:
cymtriks said:
I'm surprised that Zetecs are discounted as too new or expensive, they've been around for a while now and surely shouldn't cost that much to install compared to an older engine of the same size and power? Or am I missing some huge hidden cost!
I think you need to keep a perspective on the OP's budget, here... we are talking about someone in the market for a Dutton/Leader/Vindicator!If you happen to come across a suitable car already running a Zetec, for a reasonable price, then sure, go for it; it's a great engine... but they're not particularly common in Duttons/Vindicators/Leaders.
Otherwise, it's all very well sitting behind our keyboards saying, 'Yeah, Zetec, great engine - will only cost you £400 for the engine, £100 for the inlet manifold, £300 for a decent set of carbs, £150 for the water rail, £350 for the inline sump and £400 for the fabricated exhaust manifold', but you've got to realise that a Zetec + nice, simple, bolt-together installation kit would add up to close to the value of the car itself!
... and if the OP had the skills and knowledge to be developing his own installation to keep the budget more sensible, he'd hardly be asking basic advice from us Muppets on which is the best engine in the first place!
Reality check, please, guys!
About the budget anyway - mechanically, I work on engines (all be it Diesels) for a living and have a degree on the subject, but when it comes to which lump to buy I suspect peoples experience of actually running them is worth more! The reason for not doing my own build is simple - I have a tiny lock up garage with no power or lighting, this is also the reason I'm looking at buying something else rather than completing my own part built Locost (stored 200 miles away at home!)
I have seen cars like Phaetons up for sale with zetecs in and I thought a 5-linked zetec engined phaeton was a lot of car for £2250. I agree, the older engines mentioned above are more common though and this is the reason I'm interested.
Whilst, a zetec may be an outside possibility LS1's, BMW V8s, Audi turbo's, Bugatti W12's etc are likely to be a tad optimistic as Sam pointed out.
Interesting point about the x-flows - I've heard people getting well over 200hp out of them (with extensive mods admittedly) so didn't think 135hp would lead to big problems in drivability? My mother drives a 1600M TVR with about 115hp from one on a single carb and I can't see her slipping the clutch and blipping the throttle as she goes down the high street.
Chris71 said:
Interesting point about the x-flows - I've heard people getting well over 200hp out of them (with extensive mods admittedly) so didn't think 135hp would lead to big problems in drivability?
I've heard of unicorns and pixies... it doesn't mean they exist! A 190bhp Crossflow is a very serious, very expensive bit of kit and would be completely undriveable on the road. 'Well over 200bhp'?
I'd want to see the dyno printout before I believed that one...135bhp is, indeed, relatively tractable in a light car if set up properly, but to get anything much more than that you need to be using fairly extreme cams, amongst other mods, and as a result the engine's manners deteriorate fast. As I said, my Sylva is about 155bhp (dyno'd), built by South Lincs Motorsport and set up by one of the best carburettor men in the business (Dave Bogg) and it's as extreme as I'd be prepared to tolerate on the road, even in a car as light as the Sylva. It's fine on the open road, but if you get stuck in crawling traffic through a city centre, it's a real pain in the ass.
It might be possible to regain some of the road manners using a mapped fuel injection/ignition system with throttle bodies, instead of carbs and dizzy, but that would add another £1500 to the cost of the engine.
It's also worth saying that plenty of people claim 135bhp (or 145bhp, or 155bhp or whatever) Crossflows on the basis that they have been built to an appropriate 'paper' spec. (ie. using a camshaft that Kent or Piper says is good for that power, with a bit of light porting and a skimmed head). From what I've seen on the rolling road, a typical Crossflow built to the old Caterham Super Sprint 135bhp spec actually makes around 115bhp in most cases, unless very carefully built and set up.
What spec is your mother's TVR out of interest? My Sylva was on a single carb when I bought it (to meet the class rules then in place for the 750MC Kit Car Championship) and only made 117.5bhp with even less tractability than it now gives with twin DCOE's!
Edited by Sam_68 on Wednesday 18th July 12:23
I ran a road legal Dutton Phaeton S2 in the Scottish Sprint Championship Over 1700cc class two years ago. It had a bombproof Kent crossflow bored out to 1740, a pair of Dellortos 45s, Bosch distributor, five-link conversion, Gripper LSD, quick rack and not much else. The car produced something like 135bhp and proved competitive - beating most of the under 1700cc class times and even one or two of the BECs - as well as being tractable on the road. Total cost was under £3,000, and I didn't take too much of a hit when I sold it to a guy for trackday use. If you want cheap fun with retro looks, go for a Dutt. The Owners Club are extremely helpful and there is a rich vein of spare parts available.
Sam_68 said:
Chris71 said:
Interesting point about the x-flows - I've heard people getting well over 200hp out of them (with extensive mods admittedly) so didn't think 135hp would lead to big problems in drivability?
I've heard of unicorns and pixies... it doesn't mean they exist! A 190bhp Crossflow is a very serious, very expensive bit of kit and would be completely undriveable on the road. 'Well over 200bhp'?
I'd want to see the dyno printout before I believed that one...135bhp is, indeed, relatively tractable in a light car if set up properly, but to get anything much more than that you need to be using fairly extreme cams, amongst other mods, and as a result the engine's manners deteriorate fast. As I said, my Sylva is about 155bhp (dyno'd), built by South Lincs Motorsport and set up by one of the best carburettor men in the business (Dave Bogg) and it's as extreme as I'd be prepared to tolerate on the road, even in a car as light as the Sylva. It's fine on the open road, but if you get stuck in crawling traffic through a city centre, it's a real pain in the ass.
It might be possible to regain some of the road manners using a mapped fuel injection/ignition system with throttle bodies, instead of carbs and dizzy, but that would add another £1500 to the cost of the engine.
It's also worth saying that plenty of people claim 135bhp (or 145bhp, or 155bhp or whatever) Crossflows on the basis that they have been built to an appropriate 'paper' spec. (ie. using a camshaft that Kent or Piper says is good for that power, with a bit of light porting and a skimmed head). From what I've seen on the rolling road, a typical Crossflow built to the old Caterham Super Sprint 135bhp spec actually makes around 115bhp in most cases, unless very carefully built and set up.
What spec is your mother's TVR out of interest? My Sylva was on a single carb when I bought it (to meet the class rules then in place for the 750MC Kit Car Championship) and only made 117.5bhp with even less tractability than it now gives with twin DCOE's!
Edited by Sam_68 on Wednesday 18th July 12:23
The TVR belongs to my dad, but just illustrating that my 59 year old mother probably wouldn't cope too well stepping out of her metro into an ultra peaky race spec engine. It's a recently rebuilt 1972 1600M with a 1600GT engine bored out to just over 1700cc with some light headwork, single webber carb (can't remember which one exactly) and a custom 4-2-1 exhaust.
Duratec is very unlikely to appear in a £2500 Phaeton and I wouldn't like to drive any of these cars with 400hp. 150 should be more than enough (although I would be quite tmepted by a RV8 at 160 or 170, mostly for the noise though
)Edited by Chris71 on Wednesday 18th July 14:22
Chris,
WKC did a pretty objective (mho) comparison of common 4-cyls (June 2004, pp.54-60). It included: Crossflow, Pinto, Zetec (orig. & SE), Duratec, Vauxhall XE, Rover K-series, & Toyota 4-AGE. Some of it is maybe a bit dated now, but email me if you're interested in the article(I can scan it & email).
WKC did a pretty objective (mho) comparison of common 4-cyls (June 2004, pp.54-60). It included: Crossflow, Pinto, Zetec (orig. & SE), Duratec, Vauxhall XE, Rover K-series, & Toyota 4-AGE. Some of it is maybe a bit dated now, but email me if you're interested in the article(I can scan it & email).
LotusNova: i'd be very interested in that article - would you mind emailing me a copy to prefab_banana@hotmail.com?
Cheers,
AL
Cheers,
AL
Sam_68 said:
cymtriks said:
I'm surprised that Zetecs are discounted as too new or expensive, they've been around for a while now and surely shouldn't cost that much to install compared to an older engine of the same size and power? Or am I missing some huge hidden cost!
I think you need to keep a perspective on the OP's budget, here... we are talking about someone in the market for a Dutton/Leader/Vindicator!If you happen to come across a suitable car already running a Zetec, for a reasonable price, then sure, go for it; it's a great engine... but they're not particularly common in Duttons/Vindicators/Leaders.
Otherwise, it's all very well sitting behind our keyboards saying, 'Yeah, Zetec, great engine - will only cost you £400 for the engine, £100 for the inlet manifold, £300 for a decent set of carbs, £150 for the water rail, £350 for the inline sump and £400 for the fabricated exhaust manifold', but you've got to realise that a Zetec + nice, simple, bolt-together installation kit would add up to close to the value of the car itself!
... and if the OP had the skills and knowledge to be developing his own installation to keep the budget more sensible, he'd hardly be asking basic advice from us Muppets on which is the best engine in the first place!
Reality check, please, guys!
May I draw your attention to my qualifying comment:
"of the same size and power"
While an older engine will be much cheaper, especially if you leave it on standard carbs etc it will never come close to the power for the same size, or possibly just as importantly, weight, as a more modern unit.
Besides I doubt that you actually need all the extras you list above for a Zetec, can't you use at least some of the ones that come with the engine?
Has anyone got a fair old vs new engine comparison for similar sized (and/or weight) engines for a given power output?
cymtriks said:
Sam,
May I draw your attention to my qualifying comment:
"of the same size and power"
You may.May I draw your attention to my qualifying comment:
"of the same size and power"
May I draw your attention to the original poster's comments that he is looking for comments on engines likely to be found in a Dutton, Leader or Vindicator and that he considers 150bhp to be plenty?
May I also draw your attention to the Raceline website, for more information on the installation requirements relating to the Zetec. It's designed for FWD use, with an injection/ignition system that's integrated into the car's overall management electronics, so it's not quite as straightforward to install as an old Pinto or Crossflow. Sure, you can save money by adapting or fabricating various components yourself, if you have the time and ability, but don't expect to just drop it in, fire it up and drive away.
I think everyone would agree that a Zetec would be the best of the engines the OP listed, so if he finds a car so equipped at a competitive price, then by all means go for it, but they will be pretty thin on the ground.
Otherwise, as I've said previously, I don;t think we are being realistic talking in terms of engine swaps as a solution when we are working at the extreme budget end of the market.
For a mere £6-£7K, you can obtain a second hand Pratt & Whitney turboprop giving about 2,500 horsepower. Now that really is difficult to beat for an engine "of the same size and power", but I still wouldn't recommend fitting one to a Dutton. One nutter has fitted one to a Dax, mind you, but then the Dax has a slightly stiffer chassis.
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