Which kits offer docile/chuckable handling?

[Chris71]

What kit would you recommend for someone with relatively little RWD experience? Looking for something stable and predictable that let's you take liberties and gives plenty of warning of impending doom!

I don't mean something completely dull and inert, but one that offers plenty of feedback, progressive breakaway and won't swap ends the moment you go over the limit.

I'm thinking of things like the various seven clones, the 5 link equiped (non cart spring!) Duttons, live axle Fisher Furys, Sylva Leader, GTM K3, Vindicator Sprint.

Any thoughts?

[Furyous]

All of the above as long as they are not overpowered and you are sensible.

Anything Zetec or Pinto powered will offer as much fun as you can handle I would say.

The rest comes down to how much you want to spend.

[Sam_68]

Furyous said:

All of the above as long as they are not overpowered and you are sensible.

Most of the '7' type cars are extremely predictable, so long as they are set up correctly.

If you want predictability, though, avoid big wheels with low profile tyres. 13" wheels with relatively narrow, high profile (70 section) tyres give much more progressive breakaway, as a general rule.

Don't get too paranoid about lack of RWD handling experience - I was driving a Westfield as my only car, in all weathers, within months of passing my test and I never scared myself. There was a junction onto a fast road that I had to pull out of fairly smartly every morning to hit the gaps in the traffic, where I would always go sideways in wet conditions, but 'Sevens' are just like go-karts... you only need to haul them back into line with a quick flick of opposite lock, and you're on you way again.

Edited by Sam_68 on Thursday 9th August 17:51

[Chris71]

Cool. To be fair, I may have slightly overstated my ineptitude, I have run RWD daily drivers (a 924S and more recently an MX5 on very dubious rear tyres) in the past and I feel happier sliding under power in a RWD car than on lift-off in a FWD car. It's just that I'm aware these mass produced designs have to be numpty-proof on a wet Monday morning and something more focused is likely to be aimed at an experienced driver with the benefit of some gravel traps!

Don't intend to go silly on the power as most cars in my price range are live axle equiped. Likewise I'm usually fairly sensible I think and take time to find a cars limits. It's just I'd like something where as a relatively average driver I can still feel plenty of interaction with the car at enthusiastic road speeds and still have a bit of safety margin if I get it wrong.

I suppose most the examples I gave were similar front engined, live rear axle designs. Can anyone comment how the mid engined GTM's compare?

Edited by Chris71 on Thursday 9th August 13:22

[Sam_68]

Chris71 said:

Can anyone comment how the mid engined GTM's compare?

The basic rule with all mid-engined cars, but especially those with transverse mid-engine installations like GTM's and Elises, is never to lift off the throttle abrubtly when you are in a corner; if you do, they will spin.

Contrary to popular belief in 'edgy on-the-limit handling', you can hold an Elise or GTM in an oversteer slide, but only if you are confident and don't bottle it by lifting off or overcorrecting on the steering. For what it's worth, incedentally, I've found the current (Libra) GTM's handling characteristics to be extremely similat to the S1 Elise... it's difficult to call which is the better car.

Longitudinal mid-engined cars (eg. Lotus Esprit, or my old Raffo Tipo 12) tend to be a bit more friendly (because the weight of the engine sits lower and they have a higher polar moment) and there are exeptions to the rule - bike engined middies can handle more like front engined cars for the simple reason that the engine is so light that their weight distribution is more like a front engine/rwd car, anyway.

Bottom line is that you'd be better honing your skills in a front-engined car before trying any heroics in most mid-engined machines.

[Furyous]

FurybladeLee is your man, he's had both Fury and Gtm.

Im sure he'll be along shortly.....


Leeeee !!

[mattstead]

As sam 69 says get the wheel tyre combo right and that will help a lot, also try and get a car with a limited slip diff LSD as it makes life far easier at the limit as the car isn't trying to oversteer one second and then just spin up the inside tyre the next, causing you to regain grip abruptly and invariably over correct and spin off in the opposite direction.

Personally I wouldn't get a mid engined car if you enjoy a bit of oversteer, they are a bit of all or nothing by the very nature of them having more mechanical grip, and as a result take far more finesse to handle.

[Mr2Mike]

Sam_68 said:

Contrary to popular belief in 'edgy on-the-limit handling', you can hold an Elise or GTM in an oversteer slide, but only if you are confident and don't bottle it by lifting off or overcorrecting on the steering. For what it's worth, incedentally, I've found the current (Libra) GTM's handling characteristics to be extremely similat to the S1 Elise... it's difficult to call which is the better car.

Years back I went to a Lotus charity day at Hethel, where some of the Lotus test drivers took members of the public around the track in Elises and Esprit V8's for a donation to charity. I can remember being in an Elise going into a corner so quickly I though "he's lost it",and he very nearly did but the chap brought it together and held it in a perfect slide through the corner, albeit virtualy against the lock stops

The problem with mid engined cars is your reactions have to be that much faster than a front engined one. I frightened myself a couple of times in my MR2, but always managed to hold it, albeit not very neatly.

[Chris71]

Furyous said:

FurybladeLee is your man, he's had both Fury and Gtm.

Im sure he'll be along shortly.....


Leeeee !!

Sounds good, I'd be really interested to hear that comparison.

Also good to speak to anyone who's had limit handling experience of a Vindicator, I'm quite tempted by one of those.

[Furyblade_Lee]

Alright, alright, stop shouting!

Funny you should ask, as quite recently I have been honing my drifting skills in the GTM.....

Firstly the Fury. Mine did NOT have an LSD, and it was Fireblade powered so, while no slouch, you did not have monster torque to break traction at will at 3,000 rpm. And I had fat sticky 48r's on so "progressive" is certainly not a word I would describe as the breakaway.... What I would say is about the Fury is, I NEVER span the car due to oversteer. No matter how bad the (unintentional) slide got, I always caught it due to the inherant handling of the car and an "extremely" fast steering rack. The car had so much grip and speed on effectively race tyres it was not really a car to go drifting and powersliding around in. HOWEVER, a torquey car engined Fury with "road" tyres and an LSD would be an awesome tool for the art of oversteer, no doubt. In fact, just the thought of that makes me want to get one myself.....

The GTM Libra....... No LSD again but this thing is a bit of an oversteer monster to say the least. If you are smooth you will get gentle oversteer through the corner, but lift off on entry (huge) or mid-corner (mild) oversteer is there absolutely. 2 weeks ago i did a charity day at Donnington taking sick and handicapped children round the track, and the Melbourne Hairpin was fun to say the least. You could (in the drizzle)turn-in on the brakes on entry, hit the throttle and lockstops, and (mostly!) drift the whole hairpin at an obscene angle. Not a very scientific method of oversteer, but it worked. But you are very avare of the engine behind you, and that was really the reason it worked at the Melbourne Hairpin. Not ideal.

What you want is front torquey car engine, stiff suspension, 50/50 ish balance and an LSD, where you are able to modulate the slides by the throttle progressivley. The most fun you can have in a car certainly. Saying that, I learned not to be afraid of oversteer using my friends MK1 Mazda Eunos (Jap MX5) 1.8, these have a factory fitted LSD as standard. Incrediblie balance for a road car and safe to learn in. And about £1,500. Most 7 types will do also, but Id say the most important thing to do it properly is an LSD. And pump the back tyres up a bit extra!

[Chris71]

Having just sold a Eunos RS-LTD with LSD and a load of goodies I can attest to their drifting ability. I think the main cars I'm looking at currently are,

Sylva Leader
Vindicator Sprint
GTM Rossa K3 (can't afford a Libra although I'd love one!) - I like these cars a lot, but not sure they'd be as fun as something I can take liberties in? The idea I could use it pretty much everyday appeals too.
Early Westfield SEi

Edited by Chris71 on Monday 13th August 11:29

[Furyblade_Lee]

My friend Ben is selling a very clean and reliable Yellow K3, it is in the Classifieds I believe. Have a look at it.

[dugt]

ive got a gtm rossa mark 2 1275cc a series engined

in the dry its the quickest car through a corner ive ever driven (i am 18 though (ive only got it because of the cheap insurance) so ive not driven much)
there is a little understeer at times on very tight corners in the dry althoguh nothing to worry about

in the wet its a conpletely different story it will over steer on any round about (this could be at 10mph wiht out much throttle)
i almost lost it today coming off a round about at the wrong angle

slightly off topic - is the mark3 rossa considerably better to make it worthwhile to upgrade to?and is the libre even better to justify the extra money?

doug

[Furyblade_Lee]

Libras are first class, as good as an Elise in most respects, better in others, like storage space for touring ect. I rarely get passed by Elises on track, unless its got a Honda lump in it or a highly tuned model. K3's have a K-series so massive improvement in engine / gearbox. But an A-series car has a charm of its own, I'd personally love an A-series GTM. They are all just "different".

[Chris71]

So how does the K3 compare to the Libra?

I like the K3 a lot, but two things concern me. Firstly (as implied above) I wonder if the mid-engined dynamics would be a little uncomprimising at 7am on a wet Monday morning. Secondly, I'm not sure the standard 1.4 K-series would offer quite as much 'go' as I'm looking for. I gather the K3's weigh about the same as the metro GTi donor cars and whilst the metro is a very underrated little hatch, I can't help wondering whether it's high 8's 0-60 time would feel a little underwhelming a purpose built sportscar.

[Furyblade_Lee]

As far as I know the K3 weighs the same or a little bit more than the Libra. My Libra with a VVC weighs 780kgs, although 750 is theoretically possible if you throw the trim out ect. a good, standard, 1.4 GTi engine is about 95-105 bhp according to the guy on the rolling road. A VVC is between 140 and 170bhp. So, I would imagine that 8 seconds to 60 in a 1.4 is about right. Certainly nothing to get excited about. However, there are a few K3's with 1.8K's in out there, one particular white car was on e-bay recently i seem to recall. They will never be as "chuckable" and as safe on wet roundabouts, but then neither is a Porsche 911.

[alex_p]

Furyblade_Lee said:

But an A-series car has a charm of its own, I'd personally love an A-series GTM. They are all just "different".

Lee, I've got a 1340cc A-series GTM Rossa 2 which I'd be tempted to part with if you really want one!

[Chris71]

Furyblade_Lee said:

As far as I know the K3 weighs the same or a little bit more than the Libra. My Libra with a VVC weighs 780kgs, although 750 is theoretically possible if you throw the trim out ect. a good, standard, 1.4 GTi engine is about 95-105 bhp according to the guy on the rolling road. A VVC is between 140 and 170bhp. So, I would imagine that 8 seconds to 60 in a 1.4 is about right. Certainly nothing to get excited about. However, there are a few K3's with 1.8K's in out there, one particular white car was on e-bay recently i seem to recall. They will never be as "chuckable" and as safe on wet roundabouts, but then neither is a Porsche 911.

Yep, I was bidding on that white one for a time

Ben's yellow one (don't know what's happened to it, it was up for sale on here too for a while) sounded a bit better developed with aftermarket mods to individualise the hydragas and prevent HG problems. The white one seemed a bit more 'out of the box' if that makes sense.

I've since spoken to Talon about a factory built K3 they're developing as a project. The spec is impressive (including a 1.8 k-series), but they're talking about £7k+. That's quite plausible 1.4 Libra territory.

So, what are the key improvments in the Libra over the K3 (the looks not included!) I've heard several people saying their handling is atleast on a par with the elise, but heard very mixed comments on the K3. Talk of excessively light steering lacking feel and a rather flighty back end?

Might be taking this a bit too far, whilst I like throttle adjustability and something you can interact with, I'm not a nutter and have no intensions of drifting round on the public roads, just something I can play with a little bit without ending up in the hedge. The trouble is, I wouldn't want to find a cars limits when it's someone elses toy on a test drive.

[Furyblade_Lee]

Cannot really help with K3 handling, Ben may be able to help on that one. Libras are not the easiest car to handle on the limit (though no worse than other mid-engined cars) but you can definatelty "play" with the throttle through corners and feel the balace of the car change quite safely. If you are thinking of getting a K3 then Bens is a very good one and been looked after. For £2,500 I do not think you will get much better K3 wise. It has my old brakes on it so it stops well too. And you could always uprate it to a 1.6 or 1.8 for just a few hundred pounds at a later date, then it will be in the 5's 0-60 wise, no problem.

[Furyblade_Lee]

Alex, is your car the shape that looks like a cox GTM? Thats the one I want.