Bike engine or car.
Discussion
Hi
Looking at getting a kit car but the more I look the more confused I am getting. I have about 8k to spend and looking for something for weekends only. I want it to be very fast, acceleration anyway, and reliable as I am not practical. I like the rawness of the bike engine seen but still concerned about reliability/durability. Could someone point me in the right direction and recommend what in their opinion would be the best combination(kit and engine). I have been looking at MK and Tiger kits in the main as they seem to fall within my budget and seem to well regarded but open to all opinion. Thanks very much.
Looking at getting a kit car but the more I look the more confused I am getting. I have about 8k to spend and looking for something for weekends only. I want it to be very fast, acceleration anyway, and reliable as I am not practical. I like the rawness of the bike engine seen but still concerned about reliability/durability. Could someone point me in the right direction and recommend what in their opinion would be the best combination(kit and engine). I have been looking at MK and Tiger kits in the main as they seem to fall within my budget and seem to well regarded but open to all opinion. Thanks very much.
I have a fireblade engined Fury.
It's ballistic 0-60 circa 3.5secs / 0-100 circa 9secs!
I prefer these to the 7 type bodied cars as the areodynamics are better and with a full screen it's very cosy to giving higher top speed.
The suspension is inboard at the front which gives less unsprung weight than on the cars you mentioned.
Check them out at fishersportscars.co.uk
It's ballistic 0-60 circa 3.5secs / 0-100 circa 9secs!
I prefer these to the 7 type bodied cars as the areodynamics are better and with a full screen it's very cosy to giving higher top speed.
The suspension is inboard at the front which gives less unsprung weight than on the cars you mentioned.
Check them out at fishersportscars.co.uk
Edited by racingsnake on Tuesday 4th December 13:24
racingsnake said:
I have a fireblade engined Fury.
It's ballistic 0-60 circa 3.5secs / 0-100 circa 9secs!
I prefer these to the 7 type bodied cars as the areodynamics are better and with a full screen it's very cosy to giving higher top speed.
The suspension is inboard at the front which gives less unsprung weight than on the cars you mentioned.
Check them out at fishersportscars.co.uk
thats fast!!! are you sure about those figures??It's ballistic 0-60 circa 3.5secs / 0-100 circa 9secs!
I prefer these to the 7 type bodied cars as the areodynamics are better and with a full screen it's very cosy to giving higher top speed.
The suspension is inboard at the front which gives less unsprung weight than on the cars you mentioned.
Check them out at fishersportscars.co.uk
Edited by racingsnake on Tuesday 4th December 13:24
Being an owner of a BEC, I love them and they are bloody quick, but there's a lot of optimism in many of the kit car manufacturer quotes, the trouble is some potential buyers believe them so the manufacturers all have to follow suit otherwise their car looks slow (on paper).
Realistically a carbed blade BEC with sticky tyres will do 0-60 in just over 4s and get to 100mph in about 11s. Having had one in my car and been on the drag strip a few times as well as seeing various other timings, it appears impossible to get a conventional blade BEC (ie one weighing 400-450kgs) below a 13s standing quarter and a terminal of about 105mph, so do the countback on that and you can see it won't be hitting 100mph in 9s otherwise it would be taking 4s to gain that last 5mph.
Having now installed an 03 R1 into the same car, I gained about 0.6s on the dragstrip and about 5mph terminal, so my car is now probably hitting 100 in just under 10s and Id guess to 60 in about 4s dead.
Realistically a carbed blade BEC with sticky tyres will do 0-60 in just over 4s and get to 100mph in about 11s. Having had one in my car and been on the drag strip a few times as well as seeing various other timings, it appears impossible to get a conventional blade BEC (ie one weighing 400-450kgs) below a 13s standing quarter and a terminal of about 105mph, so do the countback on that and you can see it won't be hitting 100mph in 9s otherwise it would be taking 4s to gain that last 5mph.
Having now installed an 03 R1 into the same car, I gained about 0.6s on the dragstrip and about 5mph terminal, so my car is now probably hitting 100 in just under 10s and Id guess to 60 in about 4s dead.
That is completly irrelevant data though unless you are running the same diff ratio and tyre size with similar aerodynamics.
Apologies if I was 1/2 second out but that's still effin ballistic and shows the diffrence from a car engine.
In reality these figures aren't that relevant to the experience, it's the whole close ratio sequential gearbox, changing up at 11,000rpm and the wail that makes them so special.
Locoblade your profile says yours does 100 in under 9 - seems I am not the only one geting carried away!
Apologies if I was 1/2 second out but that's still effin ballistic and shows the diffrence from a car engine.
In reality these figures aren't that relevant to the experience, it's the whole close ratio sequential gearbox, changing up at 11,000rpm and the wail that makes them so special.
Locoblade your profile says yours does 100 in under 9 - seems I am not the only one geting carried away!
Edited by racingsnake on Tuesday 4th December 20:22
Edited by racingsnake on Tuesday 4th December 20:23
Edited by racingsnake on Tuesday 4th December 20:24
Im not basing it solely on my data, Ive seen timing slips of Phoenix / Furies etc and they're all much of a muchness.
Acceleration is closely related to power/weight ratio, gearing (and therefore tyre size) within reason does not make very much difference to acceleration, maybe a couple of tenths over a quarter mile but no more. Likewise aero deficiencies only minimal difference until you're above 100mph so an aerodynamic design hardly has time to affect the results by more than a few tenths.
If you turned up at Santa Pod with massive 10" wide hillclimb slicks then maybe you'd get it under 13s, but the terminal speed would be very similar so I stand by the statement that with a conventional road going BEC of around 400-450kgs, regardless of tyres / diff / aero differences, they'll all do standing quarters in the 13-14s bracket and will not hit 100 in under 10s. Sorry to burst the bubble.
Acceleration is closely related to power/weight ratio, gearing (and therefore tyre size) within reason does not make very much difference to acceleration, maybe a couple of tenths over a quarter mile but no more. Likewise aero deficiencies only minimal difference until you're above 100mph so an aerodynamic design hardly has time to affect the results by more than a few tenths.
If you turned up at Santa Pod with massive 10" wide hillclimb slicks then maybe you'd get it under 13s, but the terminal speed would be very similar so I stand by the statement that with a conventional road going BEC of around 400-450kgs, regardless of tyres / diff / aero differences, they'll all do standing quarters in the 13-14s bracket and will not hit 100 in under 10s. Sorry to burst the bubble.
racingsnake said:
In reality these figures aren't that relevant to the experience, it's the whole close ratio sequential gearbox, changing up at 11,000rpm and the wail that makes them so special.
Completely and utterly agree there, Im not saying they are slow in any way, just not quite as quick as claimed.racingsnake said:
Locoblade your profile says yours does 100 in under 9 - seems I am not the only one geting carried away!
LOL, fair do's. I forgot that quote was there TBH, was written several years ago before I'd looked more closely at the actual figures I and others were getting and realised they were a bit on the optimistic side. 
Edited by LocoBlade on Tuesday 4th December 20:36
I would recomend a westfield on an £8k budget and that will get you either engine..
Ive had a few vauxhall powered westys in various states of tune, a couple of blade powered cars , a zx12 engined and a handfull of busas including my latest tuned 1550cc busa , imho if you are not mechanicaly minded and are going for more road use I would personally go for a car engined car, in a westfield a good redtop powered car will be comparable performance to a fireblade car with the blade pipping it off the line. a cec of 200bhp or there abouts will be enough to put a smile on your face and are normally fairly bomb proof. If you are doing trackdays more than road I would go for a bec they make sense for track use and driven well will punch well above there weight .
my last busa managed 6,000 track miles and was almost 100% reliable, (1 x £2 oil seal failed in 2 years) If you spend the time checking over everytime you park it up and regular oil changes they are fine, biggest problem with the bec"s Ive owned is bolts vibrating loose on props and other ancills, but as I said look after it and they are fine.
heres a video of my standard 1300cc busa (175bhp) doing a 0-100-0 . westfield quote 3.5 to 60 , I did it on a cold day on road tyres in December and managed around 4 secs to 60 . and 11 secs to 100.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-2649319...
Ive had a few vauxhall powered westys in various states of tune, a couple of blade powered cars , a zx12 engined and a handfull of busas including my latest tuned 1550cc busa , imho if you are not mechanicaly minded and are going for more road use I would personally go for a car engined car, in a westfield a good redtop powered car will be comparable performance to a fireblade car with the blade pipping it off the line. a cec of 200bhp or there abouts will be enough to put a smile on your face and are normally fairly bomb proof. If you are doing trackdays more than road I would go for a bec they make sense for track use and driven well will punch well above there weight .
my last busa managed 6,000 track miles and was almost 100% reliable, (1 x £2 oil seal failed in 2 years) If you spend the time checking over everytime you park it up and regular oil changes they are fine, biggest problem with the bec"s Ive owned is bolts vibrating loose on props and other ancills, but as I said look after it and they are fine.
heres a video of my standard 1300cc busa (175bhp) doing a 0-100-0 . westfield quote 3.5 to 60 , I did it on a cold day on road tyres in December and managed around 4 secs to 60 . and 11 secs to 100.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-2649319...
Edited by JeffC on Tuesday 4th December 20:58
JeffC said:
I would recomend a westfield on an £8k budget and that will get you either engine..
Ive had a few vauxhall powered westys in various states of tune, a couple of blade powered cars , a zx12 engined and a handfull of busas including my latest tuned 1550cc busa , imho if you are not mechanicaly minded and are going for more road use I would personally go for a car engined car, in a westfield a good redtop powered car will be comparable performance to a fireblade car with the blade pipping it off the line. a cec of 200bhp or there abouts will be enough to put a smile on your face and are normally fairly bomb proof. If you are doing trackdays more than road I would go for a bec they make sense for track use and driven well will punch well above there weight .
my last busa managed 6,000 track miles and was almost 100% reliable, (1 x £2 oil seal failed in 2 years) If you spend the time checking over everytime you park it up and regular oil changes they are fine, biggest problem with the bec"s Ive owned is bolts vibrating loose on props and other ancills, but as I said look after it and they are fine.
heres a video of my standard 1300cc busa (175bhp) doing a 0-100-0 . westfield quote 3.5 to 60 , I did it on a cold day on road tyres in December and managed around 4 secs to 60 . and 11 secs to 100.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-2649319...
I agree with Jeff - apart from getting a Westy, obviously you should get a Mojo Ive had a few vauxhall powered westys in various states of tune, a couple of blade powered cars , a zx12 engined and a handfull of busas including my latest tuned 1550cc busa , imho if you are not mechanicaly minded and are going for more road use I would personally go for a car engined car, in a westfield a good redtop powered car will be comparable performance to a fireblade car with the blade pipping it off the line. a cec of 200bhp or there abouts will be enough to put a smile on your face and are normally fairly bomb proof. If you are doing trackdays more than road I would go for a bec they make sense for track use and driven well will punch well above there weight .
my last busa managed 6,000 track miles and was almost 100% reliable, (1 x £2 oil seal failed in 2 years) If you spend the time checking over everytime you park it up and regular oil changes they are fine, biggest problem with the bec"s Ive owned is bolts vibrating loose on props and other ancills, but as I said look after it and they are fine.
heres a video of my standard 1300cc busa (175bhp) doing a 0-100-0 . westfield quote 3.5 to 60 , I did it on a cold day on road tyres in December and managed around 4 secs to 60 . and 11 secs to 100.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-2649319...
Edited by JeffC on Tuesday 4th December 20:58
Seriously tho, a westy would be sweet, lots of support by the factory and on wsccc too.
I've been in a Striker R1 (as a passenger) and we did 0-100mph in 9.4 seconds according to the Digidash plot. It was this one: http://striker.r-one.co.uk/
I'm still doing testing on my Fury R1 but from the figures I've got so far I'm pretty sure it will do 0-100mph in less than 10 seconds and I'm hoping for nearer to 9.
These cars are not all the same. Using a tuned 4-2-1 manifold seems to make a big difference in the torque and power acheived. Weight is also going to be a big issue.
Perhaps the biggest one, though is gearing and tyre choice. If I changed the 185/60R13 tyres on the back of my Fury R1 to 205/60R13, I'd lose 4.2% of the acceleration due to increased diameter of the tyres. Work it out and that amounts to quite a bit over a 0-100mph sprint. Those guys running larger wheels are a a real disadvantage assuming the same diff ratio and other factors remain the same. Even the choice of diff oil can make a difference and many people use a very thin oil in BECs to lower transmission losses.
The weight of the wheels and tyres are a factor due to the rotational inertia involved as is the overall weight of the car. In my experience, geting the power down away from the line is the biggest issue and very soft and slick tyres will make a huge difference. I'm running A048R's and they need to be very hot to grip well.
Doing good 0-60 and 0-100mph runs requires a lot of time and practice and it will eventually break something, most likely the clutch.
Rob
http://www.robcollingridge.com/FuryR1/
I'm still doing testing on my Fury R1 but from the figures I've got so far I'm pretty sure it will do 0-100mph in less than 10 seconds and I'm hoping for nearer to 9.
These cars are not all the same. Using a tuned 4-2-1 manifold seems to make a big difference in the torque and power acheived. Weight is also going to be a big issue.
Perhaps the biggest one, though is gearing and tyre choice. If I changed the 185/60R13 tyres on the back of my Fury R1 to 205/60R13, I'd lose 4.2% of the acceleration due to increased diameter of the tyres. Work it out and that amounts to quite a bit over a 0-100mph sprint. Those guys running larger wheels are a a real disadvantage assuming the same diff ratio and other factors remain the same. Even the choice of diff oil can make a difference and many people use a very thin oil in BECs to lower transmission losses.
The weight of the wheels and tyres are a factor due to the rotational inertia involved as is the overall weight of the car. In my experience, geting the power down away from the line is the biggest issue and very soft and slick tyres will make a huge difference. I'm running A048R's and they need to be very hot to grip well.
Doing good 0-60 and 0-100mph runs requires a lot of time and practice and it will eventually break something, most likely the clutch.
Rob
http://www.robcollingridge.com/FuryR1/
I use the small 185/60/13 Toyo 888's and 048R's and a live 3.54 axle and would say the gearing is on the right side of low for most track use - the accelaration is brutal after my TVR.
This sees me just revving out before the end of the straights at Oulton Park.
Mines just a track car though and would be a bit busy on the motorway I suspect.
I also have a set of 7" Avon slicks but not tried them yet.
This sees me just revving out before the end of the straights at Oulton Park.
Mines just a track car though and would be a bit busy on the motorway I suspect.
I also have a set of 7" Avon slicks but not tried them yet.
lowfold said:
Thanks a lot for the info chaps, much appreciated.
Jeffc, thanks for the clip, bloody hell that is fast!!
What engine(car)would you recommend?
Im a big bec fan but wouldnt recomend them to everyone , you need to work out what you are going to use the car for, my current westy isnt very road friendly and spands 90% of its time on track, If I wanted a road car I would get a grunty car engined westy, my pals got a 220bhp zetec and that is impressive as is redtops of similar power, on an £8k budget you are prob looking at a standard redtop or zetec and I would personally get the vauxhall as they have more grunt from the crate. If you decide on a westy try and get a wide bodied detatchable arched model. have a look on wscc.co.uk (westy owners club forum ) plenty of info on there. as suggested other kit cars are out there that are more stream line and will have the legs on a seven shaped car top end but both cars well driven on a track there isnt a lot of difference. Jeffc, thanks for the clip, bloody hell that is fast!!
What engine(car)would you recommend?
Edited by lowfold on Wednesday 5th December 08:48
Edited by lowfold on Wednesday 5th December 08:52
Ps ref the 0-100 video. that is pedestrian pace compared to my latest Busa , Ive got a video somewhere of it giving out lessons to a couple of Atom 300s somewhere
robcollingridge said:
I'm running A048R's and they need to be very hot to grip well.
I've just replaced the A048's I had on the front of my Fury fireblade with R888's; they seem much better than the 48's at the temperatures/road conditions we have a this time of year. Has anyone else noticed similar? Quite happy to be disagreed with as I've only recently got the car, and only had 2 drives with the new tyres, this was just my initial impression.
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