TVR project and Q plates

[G1ABB]

Hi everyone.

I'm in the process of building a TVR speed 12 but the parts I have are incomplete.

I do have a chassis and all the body panels including doors. However, I don't have an engine, original transmission, wheels, electrics etc. Clearly I don't have much at all but luckily I do have that very important body work and chassis.

Please see:

http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Not sure if that will work but in general TVR forum thread is called "Speed 12 project"

Anyhow, is there any way to avoid Q plates. Chassis has a VIN plate but it isn't recognised by the DVLA.

I'm currently planning to use a donor cerbera car, discard the body, modify the chassis and put in all new mechanicals to take a powerful engine, possibly an LS.

Anyhow, any advice you can provide would be very much appreciated. I really don't want a Q plate if possible.

Thanks
Graham

[Paul Drawmer]

Looks as if you are well on the way to going the SVA route and new car registration.

When you say the chassis number isn't recognised, has it never been part of a registered car?

[G1ABB]

Paul Drawmer said:

Looks as if you are well on the way to going the SVA route and new car registration.

When you say the chassis number isn't recognised, has it never been part of a registered car?

Difficult to be certain but as the DVLA did not recognise the number then it seems it effectively hasn't previously been registered on the road. The bit I find confusing is the use of new/old parts. Old parts appears to = Q plate. Proven new parts (i.e. new body) on previously registered car = keep the plates. Problem is that although the parts I have, have not been used on the road it is difficult to classify them as unused and new condition.

Graham

[Steve_D]

You will need a certificate of newness for all of the parts bar one major assembly like the engine if you want a brand new reg.
An age related would need a certain number of parts from a single donor which again I don't think fits from what you say in the OP.

That leaves Q plate....but, does that really matter if the car is what you want? You obviously have a specific reason for wanting to build this unique car so why worry about the plate.

As an aside, if you are going for SVA 'Amateur Build' do make sure you are taking plenty of photos. Don't just take cold technical pictures as they will need to be convinced you are not doing this as a business so plenty of wider angle shots that include such items as wheelie bins, dogs, pushbikes and anything else that forms your domestic scene.
From a personal standpoint pictures of you sitting in the chassis with a steering wheel in hand and going Brooom Brooom are unacceptable.

Steve

[mrmaggit]

Steve_D said:

You will need a certificate of newness for all of the parts bar one major assembly like the engine if you want a brand new reg.
An age related would need a certain number of parts from a single donor which again I don't think fits from what you say in the OP.

That leaves Q plate....but, does that really matter if the car is what you want? You obviously have a specific reason for wanting to build this unique car so why worry about the plate.

As an aside, if you are going for SVA 'Amateur Build' do make sure you are taking plenty of photos. Don't just take cold technical pictures as they will need to be convinced you are not doing this as a business so plenty of wider angle shots that include such items as wheelie bins, dogs, pushbikes and anything else that forms your domestic scene.
From a personal standpoint pictures of you sitting in the chassis with a steering wheel in hand and going Brooom Brooom are unacceptable.

Steve

Not necessarliy, our Scorpion III was never registered, but built in 1997, and used as a promotional vehicle, covering some 1500 miles. It went back Grinnalls for mods to get through the new SVA, came out on a "55" plate. Only the rear light pods were new.

maggit

[G1ABB]

mrmaggit said:

Steve_D said:

You will need a certificate of newness for all of the parts bar one major assembly like the engine if you want a brand new reg.
An age related would need a certain number of parts from a single donor which again I don't think fits from what you say in the OP.

That leaves Q plate....but, does that really matter if the car is what you want? You obviously have a specific reason for wanting to build this unique car so why worry about the plate.

As an aside, if you are going for SVA 'Amateur Build' do make sure you are taking plenty of photos. Don't just take cold technical pictures as they will need to be convinced you are not doing this as a business so plenty of wider angle shots that include such items as wheelie bins, dogs, pushbikes and anything else that forms your domestic scene.
From a personal standpoint pictures of you sitting in the chassis with a steering wheel in hand and going Brooom Brooom are unacceptable.

Steve

Not necessarliy, our Scorpion III was never registered, but built in 1997, and used as a promotional vehicle, covering some 1500 miles. It went back Grinnalls for mods to get through the new SVA, came out on a "55" plate. Only the rear light pods were new.

maggit

Now I am really confused. However, if I can argue that the body is old and everything else that is major is new, which it will be, then that seems to fit the bill for new plate?

Thanks.

[Gumstabber]

Buy a private registration

[DavidY]

Once a Q plate always a Q plate, you cannot transfer private plates to or from a vehicle with Q plates

davidy

[G1ABB]

Gumstabber said:

Buy a private registration

The DVLA won't let you change from a Q plate to private. The reason being that Q plates are there to warn others that the vehicle in question is not original enough in the eyes of the law. ie. could be dodgy.

At least that was my take on it when I spoke to them.

cheers
Graham

[alex_p]

A Q plate denotes a vehicle of undetermined age. This is usually because the major components come from a range of sources, such that the date of manufacture of the car cannot be pinned down to any one year. The reason they cannot be transferred is because it is illegal to make your car appear younger than it is with a private plate, therefore, if you don’t know how old the car is you can’t put a dated plate of any sort on. Saying it is because the vehicle is ‘dodgy’ in anyway is completely wrong, if the DVLA had any issues with the identity of the vehicle, or any of its major components, then they simply wouldn’t issue it with a plate in the first place.

The Original Poster’s project sounds as if there is not enough of a single original and registered vehicle to count as a Radically Altered Vehicle or be awarded an age related plate, nor are there enough brand new components for it to be awarded a new plate. I’m sure there are plenty of people on here who would suggest dodges that might get you the plate of your choice, however, the majority of people who have registered kit and radically altered vehicles all have their own stories to tell, which will likely suggest to you that it isn’t worth trying to blag!

Good luck with your project, sounds like it’ll be a beast!

[G1ABB]

alex_p said:

A Q plate denotes a vehicle of undetermined age. This is usually because the major components come from a range of sources, such that the date of manufacture of the car cannot be pinned down to any one year. The reason they cannot be transferred is because it is illegal to make your car appear younger than it is with a private plate, therefore, if you don’t know how old the car is you can’t put a dated plate of any sort on. Saying it is because the vehicle is ‘dodgy’ in anyway is completely wrong, if the DVLA had any issues with the identity of the vehicle, or any of its major components, then they simply wouldn’t issue it with a plate in the first place.

The Original Poster’s project sounds as if there is not enough of a single original and registered vehicle to count as a Radically Altered Vehicle or be awarded an age related plate, nor are there enough brand new components for it to be awarded a new plate. I’m sure there are plenty of people on here who would suggest dodges that might get you the plate of your choice, however, the majority of people who have registered kit and radically altered vehicles all have their own stories to tell, which will likely suggest to you that it isn’t worth trying to blag!

Good luck with your project, sounds like it’ll be a beast!

Thank you for your response, I was merely quoting verbatum the words of a DVLA official when saying "dodgy"... A bad description it appears. As you say it is the age which is at question.

Thanks
Graham

[tvrolet]

Build it 'as new' and put it through an SVA...for which the SVA manual is an invaluable purchase. Parts do not actually have to be 'new', but can be 'refurbished as new'. Use the category 'amateur build' and keep a photo record of bulding the car from scratch from new (or refurbished as new) parts. This may not be needed but is good backup if the licencing folks get difficult. However, in my experience (OK, the Edinburgh DVLA office) they bent over backwards to help me with the registration of mine as the guys I spoke to were real keen to see 'interesting' cars.

My [ex] Tuscan Challenge racer is registered as new on a '57' plate. Possible the only new TVR registered in 2007

[alex_p]

If TVR could date the chassis number and provide a date of manufacture for you, that would be a good start. In my experience you can't discuss things too closely with your local DVLA office if you're going to try for a 'non SVA' route to registration, if not, buy the SVA Manual and make it your bible!

[G1ABB]

SVA manual it is then. However are the differences between amateur and professional build a major issue?

Many thanks
Graham

[tvrolet]

G1ABB said:

SVA manual it is then. However are the differences between amateur and professional build a major issue?

Many thanks
Graham

No differences in the test or standard you have to build to - it's just the category you present the car as.

Given I've done it with a TVR, PM me if you want any advice on partucular issues. But, in reality if you read th SVA manual THOUROUGHLY, and read again, and read again, and really understand what they're getting at it's not too tricky. Some of the sections need 3 or 4 readings to really see what the actual [minimum] requirements are. But it's some of the little thinks like having to have the hazards work with the ignition off. You can also spot little 'workarounds'. There is a presumption that you need a handbrake warning light as that's how it works on production cars. However, the regs say you need a low brake fluid warning light, and that there must be some method of testing the operation of the warning lamp. I put in a two-pole switch for the fuel pump, so when the fuel pump is off it puts the brake fluid warning light on. It mathces the requirement of the SVA guide without massing about with switches off the handbrake (which can't be hydraulic btw).

[G1ABB]

tvrolet said:

G1ABB said:

SVA manual it is then. However are the differences between amateur and professional build a major issue?

Many thanks
Graham

No differences in the test or standard you have to build to - it's just the category you present the car as.

Given I've done it with a TVR, PM me if you want any advice on partucular issues. But, in reality if you read th SVA manual THOUROUGHLY, and read again, and read again, and really understand what they're getting at it's not too tricky. Some of the sections need 3 or 4 readings to really see what the actual [minimum] requirements are. But it's some of the little thinks like having to have the hazards work with the ignition off. You can also spot little 'workarounds'. There is a presumption that you need a handbrake warning light as that's how it works on production cars. However, the regs say you need a low brake fluid warning light, and that there must be some method of testing the operation of the warning lamp. I put in a two-pole switch for the fuel pump, so when the fuel pump is off it puts the brake fluid warning light on. It mathces the requirement of the SVA guide without massing about with switches off the handbrake (which can't be hydraulic btw).

Thank you, and I'm sure I'll be taking you up on your offer of advice. I may as well order the book now.
I take it the DVLA sell it?

Thanks
Graham

[tvrolet]

G1ABB said:

I may as well order the book now.
I take it the DVLA sell it?

Thanks
Graham

Nope - VOSA
here.... http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosacorp/publications/manua...

Edited: BTW it's the £37.00 Single Vehicle Approval Inspection Manual at the foot of the page you want. And once you get it, ignore the eSVA regs as a) they'll scare the bejesus out of you, but b) they don't apply to an amateur build, just the 'regular' SVA regs.

And while I'm at it, you'll note that the emmissions regs are based on the age of the BLOCK, not the engine build. This may alter your choice of engine if you want to cut down on some build/setup work. A new engine (like an LS7) will require an ECU, fuel injection and cats to get through current regs...ergo mine's a new-build engine based on an elderly iron block, so my emissions are 'no visible smoke'; more importanttly for me, no cats to find space for and no ECU/FI to set-up However, while VOSA use the block age for emissions purposes, the nice registration folks take the age of the [receipted] engine build, so mine's treated as a new engine in a new car, thus a '57 plate.

Edited by tvrolet on Tuesday 12th August 18:02

[Steve_D]

You don't need to buy the manual its a free download in the SVA sticky up top.
Go towards the end of the thread for the latest version. 18 meg so you will need broadband.

I have also downloaded the new draft for the IVA which will shortly replace SVA. There is more to it but nothing more difficult to achieve and in many places it is clearer what is required.

Steve

[Avocet]

You'd need to use "2 major components" from a single donor vehicle. If you choose to use a Cerbera as the donor, you'd need to use two of the following:

Engine
Transmission
Axles (front and rear)
Suspension (front and rear)
Steering
Chassis.

Note that you need to use the suspension (or axles) from BOTH ends of the donor to count as ONE major component (i.e, just using the front axles or the front suspension counts for nothing.

If you can do that, I don't see why you should't get an "age-related" plate of the same age as the donor Cerbera.

As the chassis and Engine are the only major components with identifiable numbers on, the DVLA Local Office would have to take it on trust that any other parts you claimed to have used were from the donor.

The DVLA's leaflet INF 26 sets out their policy but it seems that interpretations of this vary wildly from one Local Office to the next!

[tvrolet]

Avocet said:

You'd need to use "2 major components" from a single donor vehicle.

...which is fine if you want an age related plate based on the age of the donor. Plus, in the relatively likely event the donor would have been an accident damaged car I'm pretty sure (but not positive) that the Cat C/D status would be traceable through the 'new' car.

For a car like this, I can't see that the extra effort involved in building it and presenting it to an SVA test as an amateur build to get a brand new current reg without any 'donor' history isn't worthwhile. With the 'donor' route the 'date first registered' in the V5 is that of the donor isn't it? Not sure if the number of previous owners are carried forward. With an amateur build and SVA you'll get the 'proper' date of first registration and no previous owners.