Westy Busa......just how good ?
Discussion
Lets try and keep this as subjective as possible chaps.
Im thinking of going for one of these as my next toy, but having not driven one Im open minded.
I fancy building a Westy as it should be a piece of cake afetr the Fury, but I want something that really puts the Fury in the shade, in terms of performance and handling.
My Fury was set up and corner weighted by Chris Seaman, and handled superbly.
Can a Westy realistically be as good ?
AlSo, just how much faster will a Busa feel over a very good ZX9R ?
With the busa being a much bigger lump, is it nicer on the road than smaller bike lumps ?
Whats the dry sump/sump baffle school of though ?
This will be used for road, track and strip, with the very strong possibilty of ending up Turbo'd.
Your thoughts please chaps.....
Im thinking of going for one of these as my next toy, but having not driven one Im open minded.
I fancy building a Westy as it should be a piece of cake afetr the Fury, but I want something that really puts the Fury in the shade, in terms of performance and handling.
My Fury was set up and corner weighted by Chris Seaman, and handled superbly.
Can a Westy realistically be as good ?
AlSo, just how much faster will a Busa feel over a very good ZX9R ?
With the busa being a much bigger lump, is it nicer on the road than smaller bike lumps ?
Whats the dry sump/sump baffle school of though ?
This will be used for road, track and strip, with the very strong possibilty of ending up Turbo'd.
Your thoughts please chaps.....
A busa will always be faster than a ZX9 in a straight line. Probobly mid range significantly so, much more torque and less highly strung at 8/10ths. Maybe 8 secs to 100mph rather than 10?
Handling wise, everyone will be shouting their camp. But there is one place the bulls
t stops and thats the race track. When RGB was launched there was two orange "factory" megabusa's entered which cleaned up.... when they finished. Teething problems which were sorted out, but then they withdrew and Andy Charlsey dominated for two years in his Fury Busa. His lap times were faster, but RGB has improved so much that now blade cars are faster round Snetterton than the busa's in 2004. So no direct comparisons on Chassis, but then no Fury's are the same and that Fury never saw the road for the roadgoing bit of RGB.... To my knowledge no 7-shaped car has done exceptionally well in RGB up against slippery Fury's and Phoenix's except Andy Charlsey in a Striker, whick had serious aero mods done to it and he is a s*** hot driver. Even a Catherham Fireblade with all that chassis knowledge available was never at the sharp end against home built Fury's.
Only comparison i can make is that of RGB racer Matt Rowe(?) who sold his Megablade for a Furyblade as he was sick of the aero advantage of the Fury pulling away over 100mph at the fast tracks. But that is the same problem for the Caterhams too, the need an awful lot of power to top 130mph, where a Furyblade can do easily with just 130bhp.
So then, unless you are racing aerodynamic cars or regularly pulling 130mph+ on circuits then a Megabusa will be just fine!
Handling wise, everyone will be shouting their camp. But there is one place the bulls
t stops and thats the race track. When RGB was launched there was two orange "factory" megabusa's entered which cleaned up.... when they finished. Teething problems which were sorted out, but then they withdrew and Andy Charlsey dominated for two years in his Fury Busa. His lap times were faster, but RGB has improved so much that now blade cars are faster round Snetterton than the busa's in 2004. So no direct comparisons on Chassis, but then no Fury's are the same and that Fury never saw the road for the roadgoing bit of RGB.... To my knowledge no 7-shaped car has done exceptionally well in RGB up against slippery Fury's and Phoenix's except Andy Charlsey in a Striker, whick had serious aero mods done to it and he is a s*** hot driver. Even a Catherham Fireblade with all that chassis knowledge available was never at the sharp end against home built Fury's. Only comparison i can make is that of RGB racer Matt Rowe(?) who sold his Megablade for a Furyblade as he was sick of the aero advantage of the Fury pulling away over 100mph at the fast tracks. But that is the same problem for the Caterhams too, the need an awful lot of power to top 130mph, where a Furyblade can do easily with just 130bhp.
So then, unless you are racing aerodynamic cars or regularly pulling 130mph+ on circuits then a Megabusa will be just fine!
Hi Lee
Andy Bates told me how much John Cutmore had put into his car to win class c...
I like the drip feed of cash that a build needs, and I know I could buy a built car for less, buts its a lump of dough.
Im really not sure what to do, I miss my old Fury, but I know it couldnt have got much quicker without spending big money.
I dont think I could live with a CEC after that though, just not going to feel fast enough.
Wish I could stop looking at Paul Rogers R1 rgb car........ Im getting a bit of pressure to go and play in the rgb, but really dont think I have the budget.
Andy Bates told me how much John Cutmore had put into his car to win class c...
I like the drip feed of cash that a build needs, and I know I could buy a built car for less, buts its a lump of dough.
Im really not sure what to do, I miss my old Fury, but I know it couldnt have got much quicker without spending big money.
I dont think I could live with a CEC after that though, just not going to feel fast enough.
Wish I could stop looking at Paul Rogers R1 rgb car........ Im getting a bit of pressure to go and play in the rgb, but really dont think I have the budget.
My 2p
If you aren't going to race, how fast does it need to be?
Lee's Phoenix is mental fast around a track with 160bhp. It wasn't exactly slow on the Col de Turini either
At 450 ish KG traction seems to be at the limit with the power it's got.
I went around Zolder with Rob in his 210ish bhp Caterham a few weeks ago and it / he was the fastest there bar none. Faster than a 340bhp Atom, turbo Donkey Warts, 911 GT3 RS, everything.
To me enough power is enough. Too much gets boring as you can't use it. I just can't see that anything is going to be more fun than a BEC 160 - 200 bhp 450 kg Caterham, Phoenix, Fury, Westfield.
It's a tough choice between the Caterham (the legend, build quality) and the Phoenix (pretty car). The Phoenix would just win on the retro Lola looks.
If you aren't going to race, how fast does it need to be?
Lee's Phoenix is mental fast around a track with 160bhp. It wasn't exactly slow on the Col de Turini either
At 450 ish KG traction seems to be at the limit with the power it's got.I went around Zolder with Rob in his 210ish bhp Caterham a few weeks ago and it / he was the fastest there bar none. Faster than a 340bhp Atom, turbo Donkey Warts, 911 GT3 RS, everything.
To me enough power is enough. Too much gets boring as you can't use it. I just can't see that anything is going to be more fun than a BEC 160 - 200 bhp 450 kg Caterham, Phoenix, Fury, Westfield.
It's a tough choice between the Caterham (the legend, build quality) and the Phoenix (pretty car). The Phoenix would just win on the retro Lola looks.
just my view
a westie will never put a fury in the shade handling wise!!!
i do remember watching a twin bike engine 7 car lapping donni and it looked fast but we also watched a single bike engine 7 lapping at the same time and the difference in lap times was no where near as much as you would think!!!
a westie will never put a fury in the shade handling wise!!!
i do remember watching a twin bike engine 7 car lapping donni and it looked fast but we also watched a single bike engine 7 lapping at the same time and the difference in lap times was no where near as much as you would think!!!
kylemrushall said:
a westie will never put a fury in the shade handling wise!!!
Kind of my own mental idea too. Problem with *my* Fury was that I didnt invest enough time in the seating, and as a consequence, couldnt really drive it for more than about 30 minutes at a stretch.I want a road/track toy that I can do both and be comfortable in.
I dont want to go down the gay route and buy an Elise, because as we all know, they just aint fast enough !!!!
Furyous said:
I dont think I could live with a CEC after that though, just not going to feel fast enough.
.
I took my CEC out on track for the first time since its build and havent set up the suspension yet. I was as quick as David Cowpers Super sexy Dax Busa Turbo and quicker than a Westy XTR2 Turbo Busa. I'm running 6 psi boost (wont go any lower) had 2 people in the car (28 stone) and would have been quicker still if didnt have 3 year old 195 tyres on the back.
and at 70mph i'm doing 2250 revs! the best bit....... the engine cost £72 on ebay The busa engine is stunning, turbo it and dont worry about aero's
Edited by antnicuk on Thursday 23 October 21:45
antnicuk said:
I took my CEC out on track for the first time since its build and havent set up the suspension yet. I was as quick as David Cowpers Super sexy Dax Busa Turbo and quicker than a Westy XTR2 Turbo Busa. I'm running 6 psi boost (wont go any lower) had 2 people in the car (28 stone) and would have been quicker still if didnt have 3 year old 195 tyres on the back and at 70mph i'm doing 2250 revs! the best bit....... the engine cost £72 on ebay
The busa engine is stunning, turbo it and dont worry about aero's
Would that be the XTR2 Turbo that was also at it's first trackday and isn't run-in or set-up yet ? and at 70mph i'm doing 2250 revs! the best bit....... the engine cost £72 on ebay The busa engine is stunning, turbo it and dont worry about aero's
Such comparisons are really pointless until you know the set-up of each car, the drivers experience and intentions.
it may well have been the one, it was a lovelly car and certainly looked well composed on the track. No dig at anyone intended, just to point out, that you dont need a BEC to feel fast, that was the only comparison, oh, and mine was a hell of a lot cheaper
I have had a look at the pictures from the track day and it looks very composed and stable throughout the bends.
My car on the other hand, has serious amounts of body roll and traction issues. You have to admit, yours looked a lot better than this through the bends
I would have thought An XTR must have a relatively good set up from the factory, with correct spring rates etc although i understand everything benefits from a good tweak, unfortunately mine was a barn find and has the wrong suspension and springs, and the wrong engine, gearbox and back axle, but i'm working on it
I have had a look at the pictures from the track day and it looks very composed and stable throughout the bends.
My car on the other hand, has serious amounts of body roll and traction issues. You have to admit, yours looked a lot better than this through the bends
I would have thought An XTR must have a relatively good set up from the factory, with correct spring rates etc although i understand everything benefits from a good tweak, unfortunately mine was a barn find and has the wrong suspension and springs, and the wrong engine, gearbox and back axle, but i'm working on it
Edited by antnicuk on Friday 24th October 11:11
antnicuk said:
. . . You have to admit, yours looked a lot better than this through the bends
I would have thought an XTR must have a relatively good set up from the factory, with correct spring rates etc although i understand everything benefits from a good tweak, unfortunately mine was a barn find and has the wrong suspension and springs, and the wrong engine, gearbox and back axle, but i'm working on it
It wasn't me, unless you were actually at the A1GP track at Taupo, New Zealand the other week. In which case nobody was faster than my N/A XTR2 I would have thought an XTR must have a relatively good set up from the factory, with correct spring rates etc although i understand everything benefits from a good tweak, unfortunately mine was a barn find and has the wrong suspension and springs, and the wrong engine, gearbox and back axle, but i'm working on it
There are a couple of XTR2 Turbo's. I think I know who this was but I'll leave it to him to make any further comments, other than to say it isn't a factory built car.
They are brilliant cars but like all kits take a bit of careful set-up to get the best out of them.
[quote]
Kind of my own mental idea too. Problem with *my* Fury was that I didnt invest enough time in the seating, and as a consequence, couldnt really drive it for more than about 30 minutes at a stretch.
I want a road/track toy that I can do both and be comfortable in.
I dont want to go down the gay route and buy an Elise, because as we all know, they just aint fast enough !!!!
[/quote]
Tillet W1's in my Fury R1. Awesome support on track and very comfortable too.
Kind of my own mental idea too. Problem with *my* Fury was that I didnt invest enough time in the seating, and as a consequence, couldnt really drive it for more than about 30 minutes at a stretch.
I want a road/track toy that I can do both and be comfortable in.
I dont want to go down the gay route and buy an Elise, because as we all know, they just aint fast enough !!!!
[/quote]
Tillet W1's in my Fury R1. Awesome support on track and very comfortable too.
Rob, your Fury looks the nuts....
Reminds me of my old Martini liveried one, cannot find and pics of it, but there are some on the Fisher Sprots Cars build site.
Not wanting to stir, but i would love to have seen Duncam Cowpers face when your car matched his 500bhp Busa Turbo, while cornering like that! I did a day about 4 years ago where he was there, with his original Dax Busa Turbo, me in my Furyblade. That Dax was just shattering.
Reminds me of my old Martini liveried one, cannot find and pics of it, but there are some on the Fisher Sprots Cars build site.
Not wanting to stir, but i would love to have seen Duncam Cowpers face when your car matched his 500bhp Busa Turbo, while cornering like that! I did a day about 4 years ago where he was there, with his original Dax Busa Turbo, me in my Furyblade. That Dax was just shattering.
Furyous said:
I fancy building a Westy as it should be a piece of cake afetr the Fury, but I want something that really puts the Fury in the shade, in terms of performance and handling.
My Fury was set up and corner weighted by Chris Seaman, and handled superbly.
Can a Westy realistically be as good ?
Having built both a Westy will certainly be easier to build than a Fury. They're both a lightweight spaceframe chassis with double wishbone suspension so will handle similarly depending on how much you want to spend on shocks etc., it'll all be about the setup. The Fury will have a significant aero advantage over 100mph.My Fury was set up and corner weighted by Chris Seaman, and handled superbly.
Can a Westy realistically be as good ?
Furyous said:
AlSo, just how much faster will a Busa feel over a very good ZX9R ?
Probably not a lot to be honest - the Busa has a bit more power but is a lot heavier. The difference will be greatly improved driveability cos the Busa has oodles more torque.Furyous said:
With the busa being a much bigger lump, is it nicer on the road than smaller bike lumps ?
Not driven my FuryBusa on the road but on track I can get away with far fewer gear changes than the smaller engined cars, and probably even the ZX12 powered cars. The Busa really does have huge low down torque for a bike engine, even with a 3.14 diff I can use 3rd gear for most hairpins.Furyous said:
Whats the dry sump/sump baffle school of though ?
This will be used for road, track and strip, with the very strong possibilty of ending up Turbo'd.
You need to dry sump it. Because of all the above factors the Busa engine still carries a premium - minimum £1800 for an 8 year old engine, around £3k for a newish one. You don't want to risk that investment.This will be used for road, track and strip, with the very strong possibilty of ending up Turbo'd.
antnicuk said:
Furyous said:
I dont think I could live with a CEC after that though, just not going to feel fast enough.
.
I took my CEC out on track for the first time since its build and havent set up the suspension yet. I was as quick as David Cowpers Super sexy Dax Busa Turbo and quicker than a Westy XTR2 Turbo Busa. I'm running 6 psi boost (wont go any lower) had 2 people in the car (28 stone) and would have been quicker still if didnt have 3 year old 195 tyres on the back.
and at 70mph i'm doing 2250 revs! the best bit....... the engine cost £72 on ebay The busa engine is stunning, turbo it and dont worry about aero's
Edited by antnicuk on Thursday 23 October 21:45
have you thought about the zx12, very simalar power, beater gearing and they are half the price of a busa...just a thought for you. Now....Antnicuk can you tell me about you engine please 
cheers, mark
Que1 said:
Hello mark, weve still got the fury9r and still going strong have you thought about the zx12 ?
cheers, mark
have you thought about the zx12 ?cheers, mark
Ey up mate, I saw it was up for sale, guess you kept hold of it ?Pleased to see the old girls still in one piece.
Havnt thought of the 12r much tbh,
I think if I had the dollar right now, Id just buy this.....
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/730414.htm
[quote=Que1 Now....Antnicuk can you tell me about you engine please
cheers, mark
[/quote]
rotary engine and gearbox from a 2nd generation (1990ish) Mazda rx7. I'm still using the stock turbo at the moment but a little porting, an engine rebuild and aftermarket management it dynoed a couple of weeks ago at 320 fwhp and 330 ftlbs at wastegate boost (6psi), with a medium sized turbo ie GT35/40, 460 fly at 15 psi is easily achievable (thats what my previous rx7 had). The stock turbo is way too small so my power is dropping off at 7k rpm as the turbo cant produce enough air but with the bigger turbo it should still produce power at 8500k rpm.
Not trying to thread hi jack, just throwing an alternative to the bike engine. The rotary is lighter than the equivelent 4 cyl turbo ie nissan, cosworth etc and a lot cheaper to get big power out of.
cheers, mark
[/quote]
rotary engine and gearbox from a 2nd generation (1990ish) Mazda rx7. I'm still using the stock turbo at the moment but a little porting, an engine rebuild and aftermarket management it dynoed a couple of weeks ago at 320 fwhp and 330 ftlbs at wastegate boost (6psi), with a medium sized turbo ie GT35/40, 460 fly at 15 psi is easily achievable (thats what my previous rx7 had). The stock turbo is way too small so my power is dropping off at 7k rpm as the turbo cant produce enough air but with the bigger turbo it should still produce power at 8500k rpm.
Not trying to thread hi jack, just throwing an alternative to the bike engine. The rotary is lighter than the equivelent 4 cyl turbo ie nissan, cosworth etc and a lot cheaper to get big power out of.
Having owned a factory built Westy Blackbird and only ridden in a blade powered Fury view would be this.
Top Speed: Probably nothing in it due to the better aero of the Fury, even if you compared ZX9 to Busa power
Handling: Can't really comment having not driven the Fury and my westy had Nitrons, ARBs and Ally Hubs and very light wheels. I'd say probably you could set them both up to be pretty much equal.
Dry Sump: Essential. The 'Bird and 'Busa engines tend to go bang without baffles or DS systems.
Someone mentioned an XTR2. This would kick the arses of both Fury and the "Mega" cars but I personally found it a very un-involving car to track. Whereas the Mega and other seven types can be played with quite easily, the XTR2 downforce make the experience about going as fast as you can, which isn't really the point of TDs IMHO.
Extra Torque: Noticeable, but then the fun comes from revving the crackers off them anyway. In-town driving's always about the clutch anyway and with this there is no difference.
I think personally it comes down to which shape you like and what size you are. The westy can be made to fit big people (I'm 6'5") whereas I struggled to fit in the fury and the general fit and finnish seemed more kit-like. That said, I'm disgusted by the general coating quality of Kit-cars (see previous thread I started on this topic).
Top Speed: Probably nothing in it due to the better aero of the Fury, even if you compared ZX9 to Busa power
Handling: Can't really comment having not driven the Fury and my westy had Nitrons, ARBs and Ally Hubs and very light wheels. I'd say probably you could set them both up to be pretty much equal.
Dry Sump: Essential. The 'Bird and 'Busa engines tend to go bang without baffles or DS systems.
Someone mentioned an XTR2. This would kick the arses of both Fury and the "Mega" cars but I personally found it a very un-involving car to track. Whereas the Mega and other seven types can be played with quite easily, the XTR2 downforce make the experience about going as fast as you can, which isn't really the point of TDs IMHO.
Extra Torque: Noticeable, but then the fun comes from revving the crackers off them anyway. In-town driving's always about the clutch anyway and with this there is no difference.
I think personally it comes down to which shape you like and what size you are. The westy can be made to fit big people (I'm 6'5") whereas I struggled to fit in the fury and the general fit and finnish seemed more kit-like. That said, I'm disgusted by the general coating quality of Kit-cars (see previous thread I started on this topic).
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