Calling kit car law experts
Discussion
Hello,
I'm from the UK and I need advice as I'm thinking about a building a Porsche Cayman GT3 (Cayman chassis with entire GT3 drivetrain, and possibly GT3 front axle and brakes) and get it registered under a current registration mark.
I am undecided between 2 methods to do this:
A) Buy a new complete Cayman car and do a GT3 engine/transaxle swap
B) Buy an un-numbered Cayman bodyshell and un-numbered GT3 engine/transaxle, and build it from scratch under Amateur Builder rules.
Is option B allowed? Can buying new major components from a manufacturer, even Porsche, be considered as a kit car? What is the definition of 'kit car' legal-wise?
If I do option A, according to Rule 1 shown below, I would NOT be allowed to change the front axle as well, as at least two original components have to kept with the original chassis.
The following are 2 appropriate rules (I still don't fully understand these though):
Rule 1
Vehicles that have been rebuilt using a mix of new or used parts
In order to retain the original registration mark:
• cars must use:
The original unmodified chassis or unaltered bodyshell (i.e. body and chassis as one unit - monocoque); or a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original supported by evidence from the dealer or manufacturer (e.g. receipt).
And two other major components from the original vehicle - ie suspension (front & back); steering assembly; axles (both); transmission or engine.
Rule 2
Kit Cars
Where all the parts of a vehicle are supplied new by the manufacturer. Subject to the provision of satisfactory receipts and a certificate of newness these vehicles will be registered under a current registration mark.
Kit cars which have been built using not more than one reconditioned component will also be registered under a current mark. This is subject to the provision of satisfactory evidence that the component has been reconditioned to an "as new" standard. An ESVA, SVA or MSVA test will be required.
Advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
I'm from the UK and I need advice as I'm thinking about a building a Porsche Cayman GT3 (Cayman chassis with entire GT3 drivetrain, and possibly GT3 front axle and brakes) and get it registered under a current registration mark.
I am undecided between 2 methods to do this:
A) Buy a new complete Cayman car and do a GT3 engine/transaxle swap
B) Buy an un-numbered Cayman bodyshell and un-numbered GT3 engine/transaxle, and build it from scratch under Amateur Builder rules.
Is option B allowed? Can buying new major components from a manufacturer, even Porsche, be considered as a kit car? What is the definition of 'kit car' legal-wise?
If I do option A, according to Rule 1 shown below, I would NOT be allowed to change the front axle as well, as at least two original components have to kept with the original chassis.
The following are 2 appropriate rules (I still don't fully understand these though):
Rule 1
Vehicles that have been rebuilt using a mix of new or used parts
In order to retain the original registration mark:
• cars must use:
The original unmodified chassis or unaltered bodyshell (i.e. body and chassis as one unit - monocoque); or a new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original supported by evidence from the dealer or manufacturer (e.g. receipt).
And two other major components from the original vehicle - ie suspension (front & back); steering assembly; axles (both); transmission or engine.
Rule 2
Kit Cars
Where all the parts of a vehicle are supplied new by the manufacturer. Subject to the provision of satisfactory receipts and a certificate of newness these vehicles will be registered under a current registration mark.
Kit cars which have been built using not more than one reconditioned component will also be registered under a current mark. This is subject to the provision of satisfactory evidence that the component has been reconditioned to an "as new" standard. An ESVA, SVA or MSVA test will be required.
Advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
A/ Has to be the way to go.
Once on the road and registered you would only need to inform DVLA of the engine change as that is the only other number that appears on the V5. You may be asked to provide the receipt for the engine if it is new and I would think you would also be asked to have the car VIC inspected if the engine is secondhand.
B/ Should be possible if all the parts are new with receipts. The downside is that completing it with all the electrics, trim, glass etc. would not be worth while compared to A/.
Steve
Once on the road and registered you would only need to inform DVLA of the engine change as that is the only other number that appears on the V5. You may be asked to provide the receipt for the engine if it is new and I would think you would also be asked to have the car VIC inspected if the engine is secondhand.
B/ Should be possible if all the parts are new with receipts. The downside is that completing it with all the electrics, trim, glass etc. would not be worth while compared to A/.
Steve
'A' would be bloody expensive, and you'd create a bitsa that would be difficult to sell, but it would be easy to register the changes on the V5.
'B' would be absolutely stupedously expensive since the cost of all the little bits you'd need to complete the project would be eye-watering, even using 2nd hand parts. Oh, and you'd create a bitsa that would be difficult to sell.
Would the GT3 power train fit in the mid engined Cayman?
'B' would be absolutely stupedously expensive since the cost of all the little bits you'd need to complete the project would be eye-watering, even using 2nd hand parts. Oh, and you'd create a bitsa that would be difficult to sell.
Would the GT3 power train fit in the mid engined Cayman?
I don't think a Cayman with swapped GT3 engine would be difficult to sell, if done properly. If there was such a car for sale, I'd buy it and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Porsche won't make it because it'd be quicker than their flagship model - the 911 GT3!
Yeah, you all are probably right - option A.
Porsche won't make it because it'd be quicker than their flagship model - the 911 GT3!
Yeah, you all are probably right - option A.
In answer to your question, yes, B is allowed. There is no definition of "kit car". Cars in this category are referred to as amateur built vehicles. This class covers kit cars, one off's and radically altered vehicles.
There are two things to consider. Firstly SVA.
SVA will not care about the origin of your parts. All they look for is the safety of the vehicle. If you are doing a engine / transmission swap, then you should pass with flying colours.
Secondly registration.
In order to register as a new vehicle, they will want to inspect your receipts to prove that all components were purchased new (not used). They will also inpect the car to ensure that the serial numbers on your receipts match the numbers on your components. When I had this done on my car, I took receipts for everything, but they only checked engine and steering rack (they wanted to check gearbox too, but were not ale as I have a BEC).
IF you are able to satisfy these requirements, they will issue you with a new registration plate. You will not need an MOT for three years. However, there may be some arguement over how the car is registered. You may wind up with a V5 that does not say Porsche, or does not say Cayenne or GT3, since your car really isn't either. It depends how switched on and awkward the person doing the registration is feeling.
If you are not able to satisfy the requirements to get a new registration plate, you will either be given a Q plate or an age related plate.
On, balance, whilst it is possible to go down route B, I think A is much less hassle. No SVA and no registration issues. Simply send back the V5 to declare the engine swap and Robert is one of your parents siblings.
There are two things to consider. Firstly SVA.
SVA will not care about the origin of your parts. All they look for is the safety of the vehicle. If you are doing a engine / transmission swap, then you should pass with flying colours.
Secondly registration.
In order to register as a new vehicle, they will want to inspect your receipts to prove that all components were purchased new (not used). They will also inpect the car to ensure that the serial numbers on your receipts match the numbers on your components. When I had this done on my car, I took receipts for everything, but they only checked engine and steering rack (they wanted to check gearbox too, but were not ale as I have a BEC).
IF you are able to satisfy these requirements, they will issue you with a new registration plate. You will not need an MOT for three years. However, there may be some arguement over how the car is registered. You may wind up with a V5 that does not say Porsche, or does not say Cayenne or GT3, since your car really isn't either. It depends how switched on and awkward the person doing the registration is feeling.
If you are not able to satisfy the requirements to get a new registration plate, you will either be given a Q plate or an age related plate.
On, balance, whilst it is possible to go down route B, I think A is much less hassle. No SVA and no registration issues. Simply send back the V5 to declare the engine swap and Robert is one of your parents siblings.
mikeveal said:
In order to register as a new vehicle, they will want to inspect your receipts to prove that all components were purchased new (not used). They will also inpect the car to ensure that the serial numbers on your receipts match the numbers on your components.
Are serial numbers different from chassis/engine numbers? Is it possible to get a new bare bodyshell and new engine without chassis/engine numbers? (an amateur builder has to create his own VIN/engine/chassis numbers, right?)
Just another question:
Please enlighten me what do "Kits that retain the original vehicles unmodified chassis are not required to have a SVA test provided the chassis has not been modified in any way" mean? (See under the heading WHEN DID SVA START in the link below:
http://www.totalkitcar.com/cgi-bin/content/exec/se...
Edited by blue72s on Friday 28th November 22:55
Edited by blue72s on Friday 28th November 22:59
To be perfectly honest, as long as you go out and get a cayman, and then just swap the engine over, no-one will care, as long as you tell the insurance people and the DVLA about the new engine. I don't know of anyone who has been asked to get any sort of inspection done due to an engine swap. And changing chassis's over is (relatively) standard practice if you own a landy or an old mini. As are engine swaps actually! I know of one bloke who had an old landy that was, over time, converted to run rangie running gear. They did ask him about the final chassis swap as it had gone through 3 chassis's and 4 engines, but they were happy with the evolution of the vehicle and nothing more was done.
I am using quite a few parts from Porsche on the car I am scratch building (front and rear hubs, wheels, gearbox, brakes etc) and correct me if i am wrong but the front uprights of the cayman and GT2 are the same right? at most the GT3 simply has beefed up bearings in the front but that wont be a requirement for you conversion?... so could you not simply keep the Cayman front end?
Rear uprights will be different, however I know the Boxster S had an upgraded rear bearing which was the same size as the 996/997, therefore the hubs were the same.... I am expecting the Cayman hubs to have this size bearing on the rear and thus use the same Hub?
So as a summary, I think during your conversion you will retain your complete Cayman uprights and hubs on the front and the Cayman hubs on the rear!
Therefore option A seems like by far the simpliest and seems to fit what you are doing as you will be properly registered/declaired and hopefully retain proper value of the car (ie over £50k).
BTW if you have the cash and are a porsche nut I can see why you are considering this route
Rear uprights will be different, however I know the Boxster S had an upgraded rear bearing which was the same size as the 996/997, therefore the hubs were the same.... I am expecting the Cayman hubs to have this size bearing on the rear and thus use the same Hub?
So as a summary, I think during your conversion you will retain your complete Cayman uprights and hubs on the front and the Cayman hubs on the rear!
Therefore option A seems like by far the simpliest and seems to fit what you are doing as you will be properly registered/declaired and hopefully retain proper value of the car (ie over £50k).
BTW if you have the cash and are a porsche nut I can see why you are considering this route
andygtt said:
correct me if i am wrong but the front uprights of the cayman and GT2 are the same right? at most the GT3 simply has beefed up bearings in the front but that wont be a requirement for you conversion?... so could you not simply keep the Cayman front end?
Uprights vary between models dependng on shock absorbers, geometry, calipers etc but AFAIK all of them share the same size wheel bearings, however. Also GT3 uprights are made of magnesium instead of aluminium.Here are some pics
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/attachment.p...
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/attachment.p...
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/attachment.p...
Edited by blue72s on Monday 1st December 17:18
Edited by blue72s on Monday 1st December 18:05
OK so will you want to use the GT3 uprights on the front and rear, but you may use the Cayman hubs?.... hard to judge if that will be enough.
Must say I cant see the Mag uprights weighing that much less that the alloy ones.. maybe 1kg a side? could you not live with the complete cayman setup at the front or else swop them out after the conversion is signed off?
How about the steering? will that remain Cayman?
Must say I cant see the Mag uprights weighing that much less that the alloy ones.. maybe 1kg a side? could you not live with the complete cayman setup at the front or else swop them out after the conversion is signed off?
How about the steering? will that remain Cayman?
blue72s said:
mikeveal said:
In order to register as a new vehicle, they will want to inspect your receipts to prove that all components were purchased new (not used). They will also inpect the car to ensure that the serial numbers on your receipts match the numbers on your components.
Are serial numbers different from chassis/engine numbers? Is it possible to get a new bare bodyshell and new engine without chassis/engine numbers? (an amateur builder has to create his own VIN/engine/chassis numbers, right?)
Yes again, by serial numbers, I did mean chassis / engine numbers.
blue72s said:
Just another question:
Please enlighten me what do "Kits that retain the original vehicles unmodified chassis are not required to have a SVA test provided the chassis has not been modified in any way" mean? (See under the heading WHEN DID SVA START in the link below:
http://www.totalkitcar.com/cgi-bin/content/exec/se...
The problem is that there are so many variations of the theme here that if you ask ten DVLA / VOSA officials you'll get ten different answers. I am not an expert in this stuff, just an average Joe who has been through the SVA /registration process (MSVA actually). My car was a kit, so I haven't really looked at what constitutes a radically altered vehicle.Please enlighten me what do "Kits that retain the original vehicles unmodified chassis are not required to have a SVA test provided the chassis has not been modified in any way" mean? (See under the heading WHEN DID SVA START in the link below:
http://www.totalkitcar.com/cgi-bin/content/exec/se...
What I was trying to say is that method B is possible. However, it's a pain in the backside. Method A is far, far simpler and just as legal for your aplication.
As far as I understand things, you do not need to tell the DVLA if you change anything other than chassis and engine. You are not changing the chassis (may be altering it a bit here and there, but not changing). My advice is to keep stum about the other changes and declare the engine only.
Hope that helps.
andygtt said:
OK so will you want to use the GT3 uprights on the front and rear, but you may use the Cayman hubs?.... hard to judge if that will be enough.
Must say I cant see the Mag uprights weighing that much less that the alloy ones.. maybe 1kg a side? could you not live with the complete cayman setup at the front or else swop them out after the conversion is signed off?
How about the steering? will that remain Cayman?
Just the front uprights as rears are not interchangeable. The GT3 and Cayman share the same hubs, wheel bearings, and steering rack. So, that's good. Must say I cant see the Mag uprights weighing that much less that the alloy ones.. maybe 1kg a side? could you not live with the complete cayman setup at the front or else swop them out after the conversion is signed off?
How about the steering? will that remain Cayman?
mikeveal said:
The problem is that there are so many variations of the theme here that if you ask ten DVLA / VOSA officials you'll get ten different answers.
Yeah, I can believe that. 
mikeveal said:
My car was a kit, so I haven't really looked at what constitutes a radically altered vehicle.
Method A is not radically altered vehicle. It's a milder class called Vehicles that have been rebuilt using new or used parts.mikeveal said:
As far as I understand things, you do not need to tell the DVLA if you change anything other than chassis and engine. You are not changing the chassis (may be altering it a bit here and there, but not changing). My advice is to keep stum about the other changes and declare the engine only.
Good advice. Ok, so what if you wanted to chop the whole top of a car off, (Banham esq!!,Fiesta or something) windscreen and all, and retain all the floor chassis bearing in mind it would no longer be a monocoque , what would you have to do then? If you were to rebody it would it need an Sva or would you just change the log book to say it was now a convertible?
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