lowest / compact transverse setup
Discussion
Davi said:
Having a natter with a mate, he's been trying to come up with the lowest height / cog / most compact transverse set up that could reliably offer ~250bhp and decent torque. Bike engines apparently not welcome!
The smallest car engine that can deliver that sort of power reliably that I can think of is the Honda K20A. Torque might be an issue if it's going into something heavy, anything under 1000kgs should be fine I would have thought. It'll also hit that sort of power pretty much out of the box, all the ancilleries are there and the transmission is up to it. Get JDM spec and you get slightly more power and an LSD also. It is a bit tall mind you.Duratecs will go 250bhp quite easily. Though going to that level and beyond is going to cost you. Zetec 2.0 will go to 200bhp cheaply, easily and reliably, beyond that again, it's going to cost and impact longevity. If you're prepared to sacrifice a bit of go, it's the budget option.
Edited by juansolo on Friday 9th January 10:13
juansolo said:
The smallest car engine that can deliver that sort of power reliably that I can think of is the Honda K20A. Torque might be an issue if it's going into something heavy, anything under 1000kgs should be fine I would have thought. It'll also hit that sort of power pretty much out of the box, all the ancilleries are there and the transmission is up to it. Get JDM spec and you get slightly more power and an LSD also. It is a bit tall mind you.
Great minds and all that - was one engine discussed, but discounted due to height. I asked if he couldn't lean it over a bit, apparently not...Edited by Davi on Friday 9th January 10:40
Davi said:
juansolo said:
The smallest car engine that can deliver that sort of power reliably that I can think of is the Honda K20A. Torque might be an issue if it's going into something heavy, anything under 1000kgs should be fine I would have thought. It'll also hit that sort of power pretty much out of the box, all the ancilleries are there and the transmission is up to it. Get JDM spec and you get slightly more power and an LSD also. It is a bit tall mind you.
Great minds and all that - was one engine discussed, but discounted due to height. I asked if he couldn't lean it over a bit, apparently not...You're struggling really to meet everything, if you're prepared to compromise in maybe one of the areas you'd be ok, but I'm not sure there's anything out there that meets them all.
I can't imagine a scooby engine would be *that* much longer than an transverse inline 4 as long as you can hang the gearbox back past the rear axle which the scooby one will do anyway. After all they can fit it under the bonnet of a normal saloon car relatively easily, so you maybe shouldnt discount it straight away.
But thinking purely about engine configuration, an inline 4 isnt going to be the lowest CoG and shortest length. I would have thought something like a V6 or V4 (if you can find a powerful one) would give a lower CoG (even though the V6 will have more of it), a V6 would meet the 220bhp requirement and also many are transverse straight out of the box.
Whats wrong with bike engines? If you're gonna turbo a 4age why not just turbo a bike engine, it'll be lighter than the 4age which has an iron block and although 2 blokes can lift one easily, one bloke can lift a bike engine easily. A force'd air bike engine could be setup to provide plenty of power in the mid range where bike normally are lacking (in cars anyway).
Just a few devils advocate type thoughts for you anyway.
But thinking purely about engine configuration, an inline 4 isnt going to be the lowest CoG and shortest length. I would have thought something like a V6 or V4 (if you can find a powerful one) would give a lower CoG (even though the V6 will have more of it), a V6 would meet the 220bhp requirement and also many are transverse straight out of the box.
Whats wrong with bike engines? If you're gonna turbo a 4age why not just turbo a bike engine, it'll be lighter than the 4age which has an iron block and although 2 blokes can lift one easily, one bloke can lift a bike engine easily. A force'd air bike engine could be setup to provide plenty of power in the mid range where bike normally are lacking (in cars anyway).
Just a few devils advocate type thoughts for you anyway.
renrut said:
I can't imagine a scooby engine would be *that* much longer than an transverse inline 4 as long as you can hang the gearbox back past the rear axle which the scooby one will do anyway.
If you've never seen one of these engines out of the car and in real life (photos don't give you a good enough impression of size), then you need to. They are very short and compact indeed. Given that you need room for exhaust headers in front of a transverse engine, you may even find that the Scooby engine needs less space, lengthwise.
Sam_68 said:
renrut said:
I can't imagine a scooby engine would be *that* much longer than an transverse inline 4 as long as you can hang the gearbox back past the rear axle which the scooby one will do anyway.
If you've never seen one of these engines out of the car and in real life (photos don't give you a good enough impression of size), then you need to. They are very short and compact indeed. Given that you need room for exhaust headers in front of a transverse engine, you may even find that the Scooby engine needs less space, lengthwise.
Why not a bike engine? He doesn't like the high RPM scream or pushing the BHP/Ltr to the extent they tend to. No not sure I get the reasoning there either
Davi said:
Sam_68 said:
renrut said:
I can't imagine a scooby engine would be *that* much longer than an transverse inline 4 as long as you can hang the gearbox back past the rear axle which the scooby one will do anyway.
If you've never seen one of these engines out of the car and in real life (photos don't give you a good enough impression of size), then you need to. They are very short and compact indeed. Given that you need room for exhaust headers in front of a transverse engine, you may even find that the Scooby engine needs less space, lengthwise.
Why not a bike engine? He doesn't like the high RPM scream or pushing the BHP/Ltr to the extent they tend to. No not sure I get the reasoning there either
If you're talking 'tuned' yet reliable then the possibilities are endless but it depends how deep your pockets are. Anything can be made reliable given enough money and high tech materials and development thrown at it.
Don't think they are transerve but could possibly be adapted to a transaverse box
How about a 2.4 litre Toyota Previa engine. It's a 4 cylinder inline but Toyota laid it over almost horizontal to fit under the cab floor
Pics on the engine on these ebay ads below, came supercharged too in Japan it seems
90-93 Toyota Previa 2.4L 2TZFE Used Engine
Ebay Item number: 290287502185
94-97 TOYOTA PREVIA (SUPER CHARGE) 2TZF-ZE JDM ENGINE JDM ENGINE (JAPANESE DOMESTIC MARKET) LOW MILEAGES
Ebay Item number: 190278768442
How about a 2.4 litre Toyota Previa engine. It's a 4 cylinder inline but Toyota laid it over almost horizontal to fit under the cab floor
Pics on the engine on these ebay ads below, came supercharged too in Japan it seems
90-93 Toyota Previa 2.4L 2TZFE Used Engine
Ebay Item number: 290287502185
94-97 TOYOTA PREVIA (SUPER CHARGE) 2TZF-ZE JDM ENGINE JDM ENGINE (JAPANESE DOMESTIC MARKET) LOW MILEAGES
Ebay Item number: 190278768442
Sam_68 said:
renrut said:
I can't imagine a scooby engine would be *that* much longer than an transverse inline 4 as long as you can hang the gearbox back past the rear axle which the scooby one will do anyway.
If you've never seen one of these engines out of the car and in real life (photos don't give you a good enough impression of size), then you need to. They are very short and compact indeed. Given that you need room for exhaust headers in front of a transverse engine, you may even find that the Scooby engine needs less space, lengthwise.
However what about height?
The Subaru manifold looks rather tall and the sump is rather deep.
There are sump shortening kits available but there also rumours of oil problems under lateral G with them fitted.
Lets assume that the head, block and sump are circa 8.5 inches each deep on an inline four. That's a total of 25.5 inches deep, 17 of which is above the crank.
The flat four has a circa 12 inch deep sump. Add this to a manifold of (a total guess here!) 14 inches would give a total height of 26 inches, near as makes no odds to the assumed straight four. Chopping the Subaru sump by 3 inches is rumoured to be possible so this might be brought down to circa 23 inches. I can't see it being that much lower which is usually the much vaunted advantage of the flat configuration.
On a different subject, why can't the Honda engine be leaned over a bit? Surely the whole gearbox/engine could be rotated by something like 15 to 30 degrees giving a much lower block. All that would be need would be a carefull think about the sump and its baffles and oil pick up. The intake and exhaust may also need to be redesigned to get the full height saving. There is a supecharger kit for the 2.0 VTEC which takes the output up to 260bhp, Jackson Racing IIRC.
If you want to know anything about 4ag's, please feel free to ask. My normally asipirated one currently makes 215BHP (on a dyno) and will shortly be making 240BHP (also on a dyno) now I have fixed all the intake system issues it had. However I haven't any experience with supercharging.
In my kit car I am going for a dry sumped 3 litre Nissan V6 (VQ30) with a Hewland sequential gearbox (ex-BTCC FWD thing, didn't cost nearly as much as you'd think). The engine weighs the same as a Vauxhall 2.0 XE but will produce 250BHP with minimal mods (mild cams, manifold, exhaust and a decent intake) and classic japanese reliability, unlike a tuned 2-2.3 4 cylinder. I fit's very easily into the space vacated by my old Vauxhall engine.
In my kit car I am going for a dry sumped 3 litre Nissan V6 (VQ30) with a Hewland sequential gearbox (ex-BTCC FWD thing, didn't cost nearly as much as you'd think). The engine weighs the same as a Vauxhall 2.0 XE but will produce 250BHP with minimal mods (mild cams, manifold, exhaust and a decent intake) and classic japanese reliability, unlike a tuned 2-2.3 4 cylinder. I fit's very easily into the space vacated by my old Vauxhall engine.
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