1st BEC Which one?
Discussion
Hi guys, this is my 1st post here, im looking for alittle help.,
Attended my 1st trackday on sunday there and had a go in my mates 306 Rallye, yeah it was Fun, but would get bored of the lack of power so im on the search for something as a summer car and that will be quick on the track.
I have raced Rotax max karts for a few years recently and before that i Ran a Formula Ford in the irish hillclimb & sprint championship and won my class it 2 out the 3yrs i ran in it. also Driven 700hp 450kg Pilbeam Single Seaters (MP88 Ex Roger Moran Car) that my dad used to run so im fairly clued up on motorsport and a decent driver.
I am currently driving a BMW E46 M3 but im really considering selling the M3 for the likes of a Bike engined Caterham style kitcar. If i do buy one i would like to do a few runs to the likes of Nurburgring, as well as entering into the road Going Classes and Hillclimbs and sprints as well as the odd track day.
There just seem to be so many options out there in the pistonheads classified, caterham, westfields & MK's etc. all of which to me look like the same car but there is a vast difference in Value from one model to the other.
I intend to use the car as a summer car for the odd outing on a sunday for fun, but i would like a car with the full race cage for safety, ideally i'd be looking for a hyabusa powerplant and the best handling chassis out there.
Thing is? which one is?
Locally i have found a 2003 Westfield megablade which i had a run in today, its only got 3700miles on it and it is in mint condition it has to be said, the asking price is £10,500, but im worried i wouldnt be long in getting bored on the blade power because altho it seems to be screaming its head off im not sure it was going forward as quickly..
Can anyone point me in the right direction, as to which chassis/engine to buy?
Thanks
Iain
Are you talking about building your own, or buying a ready built car? If ready built, then wahtever is available and takes your fancy.
If you are building your own, then the MK Indy Type R would be my suggestion. The tastier engines tend to be quite a bit more expensive to buy, plus the more recent ones will be on fuel injection which will mean using an ecu and slightly more complicated wiring. All do-able, but it all adds to the cost.
If you are building your own, then the MK Indy Type R would be my suggestion. The tastier engines tend to be quite a bit more expensive to buy, plus the more recent ones will be on fuel injection which will mean using an ecu and slightly more complicated wiring. All do-able, but it all adds to the cost.
nah i would prefare to buy one built, a prefarably a Factory built car.
How does the mk compare in build quality and handling to the similar caterham and westfield setups?
What makes the mk much cheaper to buy 2nd hand?
would the pick of the engines be the R1 and Hyabusa?
Sorry for all the questions.
Are there any other forums dedicated to these types of cars?
How does the mk compare in build quality and handling to the similar caterham and westfield setups?
What makes the mk much cheaper to buy 2nd hand?
would the pick of the engines be the R1 and Hyabusa?
Sorry for all the questions.
Are there any other forums dedicated to these types of cars?
Benzini said:
Are there any other forums dedicated to these types of cars?
Try....http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f...
And asking for comparisons between MK, Westie and Caterham is going to open up a large can of worms!
Geoff.
Hi!
Firstly, there are not many of certain types of BEC out there to choose from. The most plentiful are the MK Indy and Westfield Mega-series cars. Rarest are probobly the Caterham bike-engined cars. This is because they were never (99% sure) offered as an official factory model, but a few (maybe less than 20?) were built by a Caterham specialist mainly with Blackbird and Fireblade power. And there are several home conversions / builds out there, some R1. If you can find one, then you (probobly) get the usual Caterham quality for the rest of the car but at a price. However, the dealer network will probobly not be overly helpful and the only time i ever saw a Caterham Fireblade for sale at was £17k used, and not even road legal, with an £800 893cc blade engine in it on carbs! Nothing wrong with that engine, one of the most proven units in RGB but the Caterham was expensive!!! And dare i say it, a Caerham performance is not at the top of the tree pound-for-pound, engine-for-engine, against lots of other kit cars.
The Westfields are named Mega-Blade, Mega-Bird and Mega-Busa. Quality is generally good if modular-built and there are usually quite a few for sale if you know where to look. Westfield factory back up and spares availability is good as far as i know, and you can enter it in Westfield supported circuit racing and Sprint Championships.
MK are probobly the most plentiful and i think they look stunning, particularly when full-caged. They look most like a Caterham visually too in my opinion. I am sure someone on here can fill you in better on MK's. Think they are a little heavier than the opposition, but not by massive amounts and look immensley strong and sturdy.
Dax make bike-engined 7'esques, the RUSH, but i know very little about them. They are top quality and Duncan Cowpers machine(s) is probobly the fastest of the BEC brigade. Not my cup of tea purely on looks, but that is just personal taste, i am usually wrong.
The Sylva / RAW Striker is widely recognised as being possibly the best handling 7 available when raced. It defeated for years pretty much everyone in Kit-Car racing Championships of all types and with Andy Charlsey driving a Hayabusa version won in RGB racing. RAW engineering sells the model now. Also there is the Sylva / Stuart Taylor Motorsport / Rainbird Racing Phoenix (which i have) which shares the same Chassis but gives a sexy body and aero advantage over the Striker. The purple Hayabusa Phoenix's won RGB two years in a row 2005/6 and beat many "downforce" cars in that series with Tim Gray and Martin Brooke driving. Fast as Hell.
Then you have the Fisher Fury, stalewart of RGB bike engined racing. Lots around, ex-racer workhorses to minters (check out the orange R1 Fury for sale in the Classifieds, it is a quality car) and have a big following with racers and trackday go-ers.
Sylva R1ot is newish on the scene, but handles amazingly well. There is also a new "version" coming out imminently, called a Sylva Spectre. It shares the same superb chassis and dynamics but has a beautifil aerodynamic 60's body sort of like a minature Crossle. Being launched at the Detling Kit Car show next month.
There is also, Vortex, Locost, F27....... but others can fill you in on those! Hope that little bit helped you, happy choosing....
Firstly, there are not many of certain types of BEC out there to choose from. The most plentiful are the MK Indy and Westfield Mega-series cars. Rarest are probobly the Caterham bike-engined cars. This is because they were never (99% sure) offered as an official factory model, but a few (maybe less than 20?) were built by a Caterham specialist mainly with Blackbird and Fireblade power. And there are several home conversions / builds out there, some R1. If you can find one, then you (probobly) get the usual Caterham quality for the rest of the car but at a price. However, the dealer network will probobly not be overly helpful and the only time i ever saw a Caterham Fireblade for sale at was £17k used, and not even road legal, with an £800 893cc blade engine in it on carbs! Nothing wrong with that engine, one of the most proven units in RGB but the Caterham was expensive!!! And dare i say it, a Caerham performance is not at the top of the tree pound-for-pound, engine-for-engine, against lots of other kit cars.
The Westfields are named Mega-Blade, Mega-Bird and Mega-Busa. Quality is generally good if modular-built and there are usually quite a few for sale if you know where to look. Westfield factory back up and spares availability is good as far as i know, and you can enter it in Westfield supported circuit racing and Sprint Championships.
MK are probobly the most plentiful and i think they look stunning, particularly when full-caged. They look most like a Caterham visually too in my opinion. I am sure someone on here can fill you in better on MK's. Think they are a little heavier than the opposition, but not by massive amounts and look immensley strong and sturdy.
Dax make bike-engined 7'esques, the RUSH, but i know very little about them. They are top quality and Duncan Cowpers machine(s) is probobly the fastest of the BEC brigade. Not my cup of tea purely on looks, but that is just personal taste, i am usually wrong.
The Sylva / RAW Striker is widely recognised as being possibly the best handling 7 available when raced. It defeated for years pretty much everyone in Kit-Car racing Championships of all types and with Andy Charlsey driving a Hayabusa version won in RGB racing. RAW engineering sells the model now. Also there is the Sylva / Stuart Taylor Motorsport / Rainbird Racing Phoenix (which i have) which shares the same Chassis but gives a sexy body and aero advantage over the Striker. The purple Hayabusa Phoenix's won RGB two years in a row 2005/6 and beat many "downforce" cars in that series with Tim Gray and Martin Brooke driving. Fast as Hell.
Then you have the Fisher Fury, stalewart of RGB bike engined racing. Lots around, ex-racer workhorses to minters (check out the orange R1 Fury for sale in the Classifieds, it is a quality car) and have a big following with racers and trackday go-ers.
Sylva R1ot is newish on the scene, but handles amazingly well. There is also a new "version" coming out imminently, called a Sylva Spectre. It shares the same superb chassis and dynamics but has a beautifil aerodynamic 60's body sort of like a minature Crossle. Being launched at the Detling Kit Car show next month.
There is also, Vortex, Locost, F27....... but others can fill you in on those! Hope that little bit helped you, happy choosing....
Hayabusa is undoubtedly at the top of the tree performance wise, definately when you consider the tuning options.... ZX12 is similar power wise. BUT these both require a dry sump, which puts the cost up even further. Same as a Blackbird. If you have the budget, i would go for a Busa, no doubt. £ for £ a 2003 R1 is hard to beat. 160-170 bhp, just a sump baffle and they are pretty indestructible. My choice. As in other posts, be aware of some newer bike engines used in cars which have big power figures. But SOME have unsuitable gearing ( you really wat a top speed of at least 130mph for track use) and weedy alternators which render the cars unusable for use at night, they will just pack up as the electrics go flat.
If you really want the "7" look , i think an MK Indy R1 or Westfield Mega Busa should be top of your list.
If you really want the "7" look , i think an MK Indy R1 or Westfield Mega Busa should be top of your list.
WOW thanks for the help guys!
MK Indy seems to be a great kit, and they do look fantastic fully caged too..
I think i will either hunt for a Megabusa or
an MK indy as stated above with the R1 or Busa engine, they seem to have a more modern dash with propper indicator stalks from the factory and also seem to be a FAIR bit cheaper.
The westy i had a run in today seems well built but i think i would get board of the Blade engine quite quickly because altho it seemed to be revings its head off im not sure how fast it was actually going forwards! and @ £10,500 its not a kick in the arse off the price of a New build MK Indy R with an R1 unit!
If i buy an Indy is that any specific better braking systems/suspension systems that i should hold out for?
Also in the kitcar buying world is it a buyers market out there at the min or are they still shifting quite well 2nd hand?
MK Indy seems to be a great kit, and they do look fantastic fully caged too..
I think i will either hunt for a Megabusa or
an MK indy as stated above with the R1 or Busa engine, they seem to have a more modern dash with propper indicator stalks from the factory and also seem to be a FAIR bit cheaper.
The westy i had a run in today seems well built but i think i would get board of the Blade engine quite quickly because altho it seemed to be revings its head off im not sure how fast it was actually going forwards! and @ £10,500 its not a kick in the arse off the price of a New build MK Indy R with an R1 unit!
If i buy an Indy is that any specific better braking systems/suspension systems that i should hold out for?
Also in the kitcar buying world is it a buyers market out there at the min or are they still shifting quite well 2nd hand?
I have just bought this factory built INDY R BUSA and the thing goes like a rocket. I have not had any top speed runs or track driving yet so i can't comment on this. I was looking for a BEC for a long while and in my opinion the MK INDY R is one of the best looking and seems to be very good value for money. The Busa engine is also mega tuneable if you get bored of the power and want more.....
Another to look at is MAC1. Very Similar to MK and service/aftercare from the guys there are second to none. All parts and tuning bits readily available and delivery next day
Im heavily into the racing scene myself alhough my race licence is for 2 wheels
I got mine 4 months ago and am v.pleased.
You learn very quick with these whats good and whats not. The locost site helps alot!
You'll be used to sequential gearboxes so a BEC will be like riding a bike (so to speak)
Ive invested in 888's, a flatshifter for up and down amongst a few other goodies. Oh and I agree about the top speed thing mentioned earlier. Ive seen on the Digidash just over 130 in mine. On tracks you'll need that extra bit. Even still you wouldnt catch me at Snetteton!
Im heavily into the racing scene myself alhough my race licence is for 2 wheels
I got mine 4 months ago and am v.pleased.
You learn very quick with these whats good and whats not. The locost site helps alot!
You'll be used to sequential gearboxes so a BEC will be like riding a bike (so to speak)
Ive invested in 888's, a flatshifter for up and down amongst a few other goodies. Oh and I agree about the top speed thing mentioned earlier. Ive seen on the Digidash just over 130 in mine. On tracks you'll need that extra bit. Even still you wouldnt catch me at Snetteton!
LOL cheeky post that!
Ill have to get over a run to give you a run for your money :P
Ill look into that MAC manufacture too, really open to all suggestions, only thing that bothers me alittle is resale... does a caterham or westfield have the name to sell on again?
Im over in Northern Ireland, which makes things abit difficult, viewing cars and getting them home and not as big a market for toys like these.
Ill have to get over a run to give you a run for your money :P
Ill look into that MAC manufacture too, really open to all suggestions, only thing that bothers me alittle is resale... does a caterham or westfield have the name to sell on again?
Im over in Northern Ireland, which makes things abit difficult, viewing cars and getting them home and not as big a market for toys like these.
Definitely have a look at MNR www.mnrltd.co.uk.
Although I am currently building an MK with an R1 engine, if I had the choice again I would go to MNR. If you want an aggressive looking 7 then the new front end of the MNR is superb.
or
Chassis wise the suspension at the front is a pushrod system. According to some the handling of the MNR Vortx is on a par or better than a Caterham.
As MNR were the closest kit car manufacturer to me at the time (I live in North Lancs) I went to get some parts from them (mainly some Team Dynamics wheels with R888s). The guys showed me around the workshop and the facilities were very very impressive! The bare chassis looks very light but still extremely sturdy. They talked me round to going from a Fireblade engine to an R1 (it wasn't difficult, I am susceptible to suggestions of more power!). They took my chassis and modified it to take the R1 unit, plus they wired the engine in for me. Absolutely top notch service.
As for prices, I haven't seen too many but of the ones I have seen in classifieds, they seem a little more expensive than MKs but cheaper than Dax's and far cheaper than Caterfields.
Hope that helps,
James
Although I am currently building an MK with an R1 engine, if I had the choice again I would go to MNR. If you want an aggressive looking 7 then the new front end of the MNR is superb.
or
Chassis wise the suspension at the front is a pushrod system. According to some the handling of the MNR Vortx is on a par or better than a Caterham.
As MNR were the closest kit car manufacturer to me at the time (I live in North Lancs) I went to get some parts from them (mainly some Team Dynamics wheels with R888s). The guys showed me around the workshop and the facilities were very very impressive! The bare chassis looks very light but still extremely sturdy. They talked me round to going from a Fireblade engine to an R1 (it wasn't difficult, I am susceptible to suggestions of more power!). They took my chassis and modified it to take the R1 unit, plus they wired the engine in for me. Absolutely top notch service.
As for prices, I haven't seen too many but of the ones I have seen in classifieds, they seem a little more expensive than MKs but cheaper than Dax's and far cheaper than Caterfields.
Hope that helps,
James
dean100yz said:
Another to look at is MAC1. Very Similar to MK and service/aftercare from the guys there are second to none. All parts and tuning bits readily available and delivery next day
Im heavily into the racing scene myself alhough my race licence is for 2 wheels
I got mine 4 months ago and am v.pleased.
You learn very quick with these whats good and whats not. The locost site helps alot!
You'll be used to sequential gearboxes so a BEC will be like riding a bike (so to speak)
Ive invested in 888's, a flatshifter for up and down amongst a few other goodies. Oh and I agree about the top speed thing mentioned earlier. Ive seen on the Digidash just over 130 in mine. On tracks you'll need that extra bit. Even still you wouldnt catch me at Snetteton!
Benzini,Im heavily into the racing scene myself alhough my race licence is for 2 wheels
I got mine 4 months ago and am v.pleased.
You learn very quick with these whats good and whats not. The locost site helps alot!
You'll be used to sequential gearboxes so a BEC will be like riding a bike (so to speak)
Ive invested in 888's, a flatshifter for up and down amongst a few other goodies. Oh and I agree about the top speed thing mentioned earlier. Ive seen on the Digidash just over 130 in mine. On tracks you'll need that extra bit. Even still you wouldnt catch me at Snetteton!
Think the guy meant the straights were too long a snett, NOT that he wants a race and you wont catch him. LOL.....
I have come from road racing back to cars but my last real car was an escort cosworth. Now i want to spend some time and money learning how to drive properly. So a trackday is imminent when the new wheels and tyres arrive.
If the price is right on a fireblade car, I would not dismiss it. I have had both, a 135bhp blade and a 165bhp R1. In all honesty I would not say the R1 feels noticibly faster, the slightly longer diff masks it somewhat. I am sure that if you put a proper driver in my Furyblade I could not beat him in my Phoenix R1. But it may be due to the fact of aerodynamics, Fury's ect. can pull 130 mph with far less horsepower than a Caterfield. So maybe in your 7esque you should go for maximum power thinking about it. I know the Furyblade could hit the limited in 6th easily, GPS 134mph with just 135bhp. RGB laptimes confirm a blade car can beat even busa cars of the similar type. The other point is setup, following on from that. If you have 300bhp pet ton +, that is serious grunt. If your setup is out even a little, with no driving aids then the car will not perform anywhere near it's ability. Particularly high speed braking I found, locking wheels and instability. Corner weighting essential. Lastly aero, even at 130mph the wind affects a 500kg car massivly. Make sure you have a flat bottom and engine bay undertray. RAW found with it's striker that by fitting vents to the sides of the engine bay to vent the pressure the instantly went 5 mph faster.. Especially important on a Caterfield.
johnny butler said:
dean100yz said:
Another to look at is MAC1. Very Similar to MK and service/aftercare from the guys there are second to none. All parts and tuning bits readily available and delivery next day
Im heavily into the racing scene myself alhough my race licence is for 2 wheels
I got mine 4 months ago and am v.pleased.
You learn very quick with these whats good and whats not. The locost site helps alot!
You'll be used to sequential gearboxes so a BEC will be like riding a bike (so to speak)
Ive invested in 888's, a flatshifter for up and down amongst a few other goodies. Oh and I agree about the top speed thing mentioned earlier. Ive seen on the Digidash just over 130 in mine. On tracks you'll need that extra bit. Even still you wouldnt catch me at Snetteton!
Benzini,Im heavily into the racing scene myself alhough my race licence is for 2 wheels
I got mine 4 months ago and am v.pleased.
You learn very quick with these whats good and whats not. The locost site helps alot!
You'll be used to sequential gearboxes so a BEC will be like riding a bike (so to speak)
Ive invested in 888's, a flatshifter for up and down amongst a few other goodies. Oh and I agree about the top speed thing mentioned earlier. Ive seen on the Digidash just over 130 in mine. On tracks you'll need that extra bit. Even still you wouldnt catch me at Snetteton!
Think the guy meant the straights were too long a snett, NOT that he wants a race and you wont catch him. LOL.....
I have come from road racing back to cars but my last real car was an escort cosworth. Now i want to spend some time and money learning how to drive properly. So a trackday is imminent when the new wheels and tyres arrive.
Plus insurance, tax and fuel are just sooo cheap! £190 fully comp, £115 tax and although I dont worry about the fuel there pretty good IF you can drive gently too
Looking at the MNR above I must say there love amazing. If I could buy again Id seriously look into one of them!
Again thanks for the information, appears i picked you wrong on the racing Front :P
Our two main Circuits here in NI are Kirkistown and Bishopscourt, which are Powercircuits 130+ in a westfield, so the higher power will hopnestly be required.
on the insurance front.. i was quoted £795 for limited mileage(3k) im 24 with 5yrs NCB how does that should...
Our two main Circuits here in NI are Kirkistown and Bishopscourt, which are Powercircuits 130+ in a westfield, so the higher power will hopnestly be required.
on the insurance front.. i was quoted £795 for limited mileage(3k) im 24 with 5yrs NCB how does that should...
have you thought about a non bike engined caterfield jobby?
I know some Bike engine ones are fast... but alot of the ones I have been in just make a boat load of (very nice admittedly) noise and go no where fast over 60mph...
If you are used to something like an E46 M3 that has a bit of gruntm and the mad racecars you could get bored pretty easily with a normalish BEC if you like going FAST!
I've had a Car engined 380bhp Westfield for about 9 months... totally and utterly in LOVE with it... its pretty mental in a straight line BUT I know I will end up going for MORE power soon...
have you driven a powerful car engined caterfield kinda thing before?
I would before you purchase. I was all set until I drove a Dax with a blade engine.... and it was slow.
Also noise is an issue at most trackdays now dont forget... and the extra torque that the car engines develop make it more relaxing to drive at 5/10ths in my experience.
I DO love BECS! I need to state that before I get flamed!
Just try the alternatives as well before you buy
I know some Bike engine ones are fast... but alot of the ones I have been in just make a boat load of (very nice admittedly) noise and go no where fast over 60mph...
If you are used to something like an E46 M3 that has a bit of gruntm and the mad racecars you could get bored pretty easily with a normalish BEC if you like going FAST!
I've had a Car engined 380bhp Westfield for about 9 months... totally and utterly in LOVE with it... its pretty mental in a straight line BUT I know I will end up going for MORE power soon...
have you driven a powerful car engined caterfield kinda thing before?
I would before you purchase. I was all set until I drove a Dax with a blade engine.... and it was slow.
Also noise is an issue at most trackdays now dont forget... and the extra torque that the car engines develop make it more relaxing to drive at 5/10ths in my experience.
I DO love BECS! I need to state that before I get flamed!
Just try the alternatives as well before you buy
Edited by Porkie on Wednesday 18th March 15:39
Edited by Porkie on Wednesday 18th March 15:40
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