What product do we think is missing from the kit car market?
Discussion
The first missing thing I can think of is a body/chassis that would be a straightforward (more or less) parts swap with a front wheel drive donor. A car that would be mechanically the same as its donor, just lighter/more interesting/faster/more fun than the car that provided the parts. The now defunct Magenta would be a good example.
I know its difficult with FWD donors because of the way the engine is in front of the gearbox, and tends to be quite a long way forward of the front axle. Production cars are shaped to hide this, but I don't see why it shouldn't be possible for an enterprising kit car manufacturer to come up with something. Ginetta gave it a go, as did Quantum, I believe.
Any comments, or any other suggestions as to gaps in the kit car market?
I know its difficult with FWD donors because of the way the engine is in front of the gearbox, and tends to be quite a long way forward of the front axle. Production cars are shaped to hide this, but I don't see why it shouldn't be possible for an enterprising kit car manufacturer to come up with something. Ginetta gave it a go, as did Quantum, I believe.
Any comments, or any other suggestions as to gaps in the kit car market?
I'd love to see more kits using commonplace and available RWD stuff like the E36 BMWs and MX5. Ford haven't done RWD cars for about 15 years and the days of old Sierras being able to be picked up easily for a few hundred quid are long gone. Otherwise more along the lines of the Sylva Riot - mid-engined using a FWD engine and 'box (and only a few bits from old RWD Fords) - would be very good indeed.
sjg said:
I'd love to see more kits using commonplace and available RWD stuff like the E36 BMWs
+1. Less sure about MX-5 though, would there be much value add over a panel kit?I was going to suggest a hybrid of both ideas: transplant BMW parts to new body without modification, but is E36's wheelbase a bit long at 2700mm? If so, how big a task is it to develop a replacement prop?
I do wonder if there'll ever be a latter day equivalent of either the Magenta or Quantum 2+2. Would like to know more about both in terms of type of structure and aside from mechanicals what, if anything, is taken from the donor.
For me it has to be premium chassis / suspension kits. By that I mean kits that use stainless / Alloy / proper robust coating that don't flake off after their first wetting.
A lot of current kit manufactures, to my amazement, really don't grasp that some people don't want to be doing a body off re-build and chassis prep every 5 or 6 years.
Most people I know that own kits would be happy to pay a 1k premium to have all stainless fasteners and a chassis/suspension that is aerospace quality coated.
A lot of current kit manufactures, to my amazement, really don't grasp that some people don't want to be doing a body off re-build and chassis prep every 5 or 6 years.
Most people I know that own kits would be happy to pay a 1k premium to have all stainless fasteners and a chassis/suspension that is aerospace quality coated.
Adding to what I said earlier, I would particularly like to see (or even make it myself if I could) a modern Mini Moke. And, of course, it would need to be scaled up!
The main problem is, though, the way modern FWD power units are made. The design would need to be quite cunning to avoid drawing attention to the protruberance of the power unit beyoned the front axle. Having a boxy shape like the Moke just makes it worse.
Still, the idea of a light FWD utility/buggy type vehicle is very appealing, especially as it could have a windscreen and a roll over cage that could also act as a frame for a hood, thus extending it's usabilty considerably.
The main problem is, though, the way modern FWD power units are made. The design would need to be quite cunning to avoid drawing attention to the protruberance of the power unit beyoned the front axle. Having a boxy shape like the Moke just makes it worse.
Still, the idea of a light FWD utility/buggy type vehicle is very appealing, especially as it could have a windscreen and a roll over cage that could also act as a frame for a hood, thus extending it's usabilty considerably.
For me I'd like to see something more affordable. I may be in a minority but I don't have loads of money. And I don't mean a Locost either. I like the GTM Libra but to build on appears to cost more money than buying an Elise. Same goes with the Marlin 5exi or whatever it's called. I really really like this. But it's way to pricey for me to consider as a toy/weekend car sadly. I'd like a blend of a partially practical car that's not going to cost the earth while still delivering good performance.
Maybe something using the Lexus LS400 as a donor but with a manual gearbox.
Maybe something using the Lexus LS400 as a donor but with a manual gearbox.
singlecoil said:
Adding to what I said earlier, I would particularly like to see (or even make it myself if I could) a modern Mini Moke. And, of course, it would need to be scaled up!
The main problem is, though, the way modern FWD power units are made. The design would need to be quite cunning to avoid drawing attention to the protruberance of the power unit beyoned the front axle. Having a boxy shape like the Moke just makes it worse.
Still, the idea of a light FWD utility/buggy type vehicle is very appealing, especially as it could have a windscreen and a roll over cage that could also act as a frame for a hood, thus extending it's usabilty considerably.
I totally agree with you on the concept and do you have an idea of what front wheel drive car would you use as a donor ? Fiesta, Polo, Corsa ?The main problem is, though, the way modern FWD power units are made. The design would need to be quite cunning to avoid drawing attention to the protruberance of the power unit beyoned the front axle. Having a boxy shape like the Moke just makes it worse.
Still, the idea of a light FWD utility/buggy type vehicle is very appealing, especially as it could have a windscreen and a roll over cage that could also act as a frame for a hood, thus extending it's usabilty considerably.
Edited by fuoriserie on Wednesday 11th November 16:35
fuoriserie said:
[I totally agree with you on the concept and do you have an idea of what front wheel drive car would you use as a donor ? Fiesta, Polo, Corsa ?
AAAAAAAAAARGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH! Small stuff! Why not a full size vehicle like the Mondeo? In fact the mondeo Mk 2 would be a good choice because being a Zetec rather than a Duratec engine, the exhaust comes out of the front of the engine and underneath the power unit, which keeps the hottest part away from the (presumably) glass fibre engine firewall. The firweall would need to be a close fit to the engine compartment unless the steering column was to be extended, which would be difficult to do, and it would set the driver's seat further back which would look odd, too.fuoriserie said:
singlecoil said:
Adding to what I said earlier, I would particularly like to see (or even make it myself if I could) a modern Mini Moke. And, of course, it would need to be scaled up!
The main problem is, though, the way modern FWD power units are made. The design would need to be quite cunning to avoid drawing attention to the protruberance of the power unit beyoned the front axle. Having a boxy shape like the Moke just makes it worse.
Still, the idea of a light FWD utility/buggy type vehicle is very appealing, especially as it could have a windscreen and a roll over cage that could also act as a frame for a hood, thus extending it's usabilty considerably.
I totally agree with you on the concept and do you have an idea of what front wheel drive car would you use as a donor ? Fiesta, Polo, Corsa ?The main problem is, though, the way modern FWD power units are made. The design would need to be quite cunning to avoid drawing attention to the protruberance of the power unit beyoned the front axle. Having a boxy shape like the Moke just makes it worse.
Still, the idea of a light FWD utility/buggy type vehicle is very appealing, especially as it could have a windscreen and a roll over cage that could also act as a frame for a hood, thus extending it's usabilty considerably.
Edited by fuoriserie on Wednesday 11th November 16:35
how about a Rover 200. Lots available at sensible money and a good variety or engines.
Something usable (and still fun).
I know cars like the Quantum and the G26 have their critics, but I had nearly as much fun in my 2+2 as any other car I've owned, kits included. The GTM Libra is probably about as close as anything gets for a typical kit car budget, but that's the only one I can think of.
I know cars like the Quantum and the G26 have their critics, but I had nearly as much fun in my 2+2 as any other car I've owned, kits included. The GTM Libra is probably about as close as anything gets for a typical kit car budget, but that's the only one I can think of.
singlecoil said:
fuoriserie said:
[I totally agree with you on the concept and do you have an idea of what front wheel drive car would you use as a donor ? Fiesta, Polo, Corsa ?
AAAAAAAAAARGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH! Small stuff! Why not a full size vehicle like the Mondeo? In fact the mondeo Mk 2 would be a good choice because being a Zetec rather than a Duratec engine, the exhaust comes out of the front of the engine and underneath the power unit, which keeps the hottest part away from the (presumably) glass fibre engine firewall. The firweall would need to be a close fit to the engine compartment unless the steering column was to be extended, which would be difficult to do, and it would set the driver's seat further back which would look odd, too.
300bhp/ton said:
fuoriserie said:
singlecoil said:
Adding to what I said earlier, I would particularly like to see (or even make it myself if I could) a modern Mini Moke. And, of course, it would need to be scaled up!
The main problem is, though, the way modern FWD power units are made. The design would need to be quite cunning to avoid drawing attention to the protruberance of the power unit beyoned the front axle. Having a boxy shape like the Moke just makes it worse.
Still, the idea of a light FWD utility/buggy type vehicle is very appealing, especially as it could have a windscreen and a roll over cage that could also act as a frame for a hood, thus extending it's usabilty considerably.
I totally agree with you on the concept and do you have an idea of what front wheel drive car would you use as a donor ? Fiesta, Polo, Corsa ?The main problem is, though, the way modern FWD power units are made. The design would need to be quite cunning to avoid drawing attention to the protruberance of the power unit beyoned the front axle. Having a boxy shape like the Moke just makes it worse.
Still, the idea of a light FWD utility/buggy type vehicle is very appealing, especially as it could have a windscreen and a roll over cage that could also act as a frame for a hood, thus extending it's usabilty considerably.
Edited by fuoriserie on Wednesday 11th November 16:35
how about a Rover 200. Lots available at sensible money and a good variety or engines.
fuoriserie said:
singlecoil said:
fuoriserie said:
[I totally agree with you on the concept and do you have an idea of what front wheel drive car would you use as a donor ? Fiesta, Polo, Corsa ?
AAAAAAAAAARGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH! Small stuff! Why not a full size vehicle like the Mondeo? In fact the mondeo Mk 2 would be a good choice because being a Zetec rather than a Duratec engine, the exhaust comes out of the front of the engine and underneath the power unit, which keeps the hottest part away from the (presumably) glass fibre engine firewall. The firweall would need to be a close fit to the engine compartment unless the steering column was to be extended, which would be difficult to do, and it would set the driver's seat further back which would look odd, too.fuoriserie said:
300bhp/ton said:
fuoriserie said:
singlecoil said:
Adding to what I said earlier, I would particularly like to see (or even make it myself if I could) a modern Mini Moke. And, of course, it would need to be scaled up!
The main problem is, though, the way modern FWD power units are made. The design would need to be quite cunning to avoid drawing attention to the protruberance of the power unit beyoned the front axle. Having a boxy shape like the Moke just makes it worse.
Still, the idea of a light FWD utility/buggy type vehicle is very appealing, especially as it could have a windscreen and a roll over cage that could also act as a frame for a hood, thus extending it's usabilty considerably.
I totally agree with you on the concept and do you have an idea of what front wheel drive car would you use as a donor ? Fiesta, Polo, Corsa ?The main problem is, though, the way modern FWD power units are made. The design would need to be quite cunning to avoid drawing attention to the protruberance of the power unit beyoned the front axle. Having a boxy shape like the Moke just makes it worse.
Still, the idea of a light FWD utility/buggy type vehicle is very appealing, especially as it could have a windscreen and a roll over cage that could also act as a frame for a hood, thus extending it's usabilty considerably.
Edited by fuoriserie on Wednesday 11th November 16:35
how about a Rover 200. Lots available at sensible money and a good variety or engines.
300bhp/ton said:
I'd like to see something more affordable
Was quite surprised at how expensive Libra kits are - especially given how long it's been on the market, i.e. development costs recouped, and what you still have to source. What would you regard a reasonable price point and for what kind of car?Chris71 said:
I had nearly as much fun in my 2+2 as any other car I've owned
The 2+2 seems to be a very underrated car, but the fact that it's still out there proves demand (what does it do right that presumably the H4 didn't?), but aren't development costs an obstacle to any successor?@singlecoil: so you're thinking of something utilitarian like a Moke - but not a buggy, correct? (Always had a soft spot for Mehari's - whatever happened to the El Cid kit?) any other points of reference you can give us - or maybe what you don't like about / think is missing from the Hoppa or the Stimson Buggy?
seansverige said:
[
@singlecoil: so you're thinking of something utilitarian like a Moke - but not a buggy, correct? (Always had a soft spot for Mehari's - whatever happened to the El Cid kit?) any other points of reference you can give us - or maybe what you don't like about / think is missing from the Hoppa or the Stimson Buggy?
Well the Hoppa doesn't really count because the engine is at the wrong end. The Stimson buggy is ok but I shouldn't have used the word "buggy" earlier as people tend to think of beach buggy derived vehicles, which isn't really what I am getting at, and the high sides of that type of buggy are going to detract from the easy to jump-in-and-out-of-ness that I think a utility vehicle should have.@singlecoil: so you're thinking of something utilitarian like a Moke - but not a buggy, correct? (Always had a soft spot for Mehari's - whatever happened to the El Cid kit?) any other points of reference you can give us - or maybe what you don't like about / think is missing from the Hoppa or the Stimson Buggy?
The moke really is the best example of the type of thing that I would like to see.
Sort of an automotive Swiss army knife (wasn't the Moke orginally designed for military apps?) - a tool, something utilitarian but genuinely so rather than the OTT faux-utilitarian look you see these days, and it's appeal is derived from it's utility.
Edited by seansverige on Wednesday 11th November 18:40
I've said it many times before and will doubtless say it again.
If you think that a Libra is an expensive car and 'you can buy an Elise for that money' you are COMPLETELY missing the point.
Buy an Elise if that's what you want. Or if you want a kitcar, buy one as good as a Libra all-round for less money. Good luck with that.
If you think that a Libra is an expensive car and 'you can buy an Elise for that money' you are COMPLETELY missing the point.
Buy an Elise if that's what you want. Or if you want a kitcar, buy one as good as a Libra all-round for less money. Good luck with that.
A small light car that derives its performace from a lack of weight rather than an excess of power. BECs are great but a bit extreme for most.
Smart cars would make a godd starting point. Already mid engined so all you have to do is bolt the subframe in place and you have a power unit. If you want more performance bin the standard ECU use an after market ECU purely to do ignition and fuel so you can lose all the extra safety sensors. This would also allow a manual clutch to be fitted as the smart has a clutch it's just the compter gets to actuate it.
Smart cars would make a godd starting point. Already mid engined so all you have to do is bolt the subframe in place and you have a power unit. If you want more performance bin the standard ECU use an after market ECU purely to do ignition and fuel so you can lose all the extra safety sensors. This would also allow a manual clutch to be fitted as the smart has a clutch it's just the compter gets to actuate it.
The problem with the current offering is that they have all developed into being expensive. Many would laugh at a Dutton yet it was cheap and fun when it came out, and is still the same today.
The GTM Libra is probably as near as it gets design wise but if you build a honda powered one you are into £20k easily, but it does give you a car that could be a daily driver and fun as well on track and at shows, however, Elises are now below that price for a good spec.
Many kit cars are good at one thing, I would like to see a cheap all rounder, the Aeon Apeona looked like it would be a good car, and still will be, but it will not be cheap.
The GTM Libra is probably as near as it gets design wise but if you build a honda powered one you are into £20k easily, but it does give you a car that could be a daily driver and fun as well on track and at shows, however, Elises are now below that price for a good spec.
Many kit cars are good at one thing, I would like to see a cheap all rounder, the Aeon Apeona looked like it would be a good car, and still will be, but it will not be cheap.
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