Closed LMP worth more than car with no windscreen?
Discussion
Not a very good title, I'm afraid, anyway what I am asking is whether people agree that any given sports car, especially a LMP sytle kit car, will be worth more in a closed version with windscreen and doors than an open version with no windscreen, and if they do agree, what might the price differential be?
By closed, I am including convertibles if they have effective weather sealing.
Let's say, for instance, that the open version is £10K, then what might a closed version sell for. I'm guessing at least £13K, what say you?
By closed, I am including convertibles if they have effective weather sealing.
Let's say, for instance, that the open version is £10K, then what might a closed version sell for. I'm guessing at least £13K, what say you?
Id disagree... I think the buyers are going to be totally different, you wont tempt someone who wants a weathproof car into a completely open one even if its half the money.
Of cause the open car SHOULD be lighter and thus faster so apeal to more hardcore people...
Case in example is the old Ultima syders.... I hated them and so completely dismissed Ultimas and I didn't like the closed one (sports or GTR)... then the canam came out with full screen and I was smitten.
Cost differential wasnt even a consideration.
Of cause the open car SHOULD be lighter and thus faster so apeal to more hardcore people...
Case in example is the old Ultima syders.... I hated them and so completely dismissed Ultimas and I didn't like the closed one (sports or GTR)... then the canam came out with full screen and I was smitten.
Cost differential wasnt even a consideration.
andygtt said:
Must add in that the cost of the screen and door hinges should be the only differential.
I had rather thought that the difference in the cost to the manufacturer would be a bit more than that! There would be the screen, of course, plus a surround for it to fit into. A rollover hoop under the screen to stop it cracking when people use the edge of the screen to get in and out. Then there would be the doors, of course, and the side windows which would need to be cut and bent to the correct shape, plus the cost of making the various extra moulds. And providing for a heater/demister if the screen isn't heated.The design that is being finalised at the moment is for an open car, but I need to start considering to what extra trounble and expense to go to to provide for a closed version.
I'd also take you up on the 'open car should be lighter' point. Probably true, but closed cars do allow for some roof structure to take some of the loads, and certainly with production cars the closed version is usally lighter. Having said that, the screen itself obviously weighs a bit.
Not sure about the aerodynamics but many open sportscars are fitted with hardtops when they go racing, e-types, cobras etc, although obviously the open version would still have a windscreen whereas an open lmp would not.
singlecoil said:
andygtt said:
Must add in that the cost of the screen and door hinges should be the only differential.
I had rather thought that the difference in the cost to the manufacturer would be a bit more than that! There would be the screen, of course, plus a surround for it to fit into. A rollover hoop under the screen to stop it cracking when people use the edge of the screen to get in and out. Then there would be the doors, of course, and the side windows which would need to be cut and bent to the correct shape, plus the cost of making the various extra moulds. And providing for a heater/demister if the screen isn't heated.The design that is being finalised at the moment is for an open car, but I need to start considering to what extra trounble and expense to go to to provide for a closed version.
I'd also take you up on the 'open car should be lighter' point. Probably true, but closed cars do allow for some roof structure to take some of the loads, and certainly with production cars the closed version is usally lighter. Having said that, the screen itself obviously weighs a bit.
Not sure about the aerodynamics but many open sportscars are fitted with hardtops when they go racing, e-types, cobras etc, although obviously the open version would still have a windscreen whereas an open lmp would not.
Even through screen is only 5mm thick with the the surround support tubing I reckon it adds about 10kg in total to the car, I could weigh it all though if your really interested.
Joe T
andygtt said:
I think the buyers are going to be totally different, you wont tempt someone who wants a weathproof car into a completely open one even if its half the money
This is EXACTLY the point - I built a GTR because I didn't want an open car (at any price) whereas Andy had the opposite view - which is fine.Having said that, if the Ultima statistics are representative, you have reduced your potential market significantly if you choose to build, and sell only an OPEN car (75% of all Ultimas that have been sold have been closed - numbers from the factory)
What price point is this car going to be, and is it a self-build kit ? Can we see some visuals of the Open and the Closed versions ?
Regards
For me it would depend what the car was for. Size, weight, engine choice.
If the car was capable of being a reasonable road car, with space for some luggage etc then fixed head would be my choice.
If it was something biased more towards trackdays then weight would be a concern, comfort less. I would want something along the lines of a JP15.
The cost of the 2 different models wouldn't make any difference.
I went for the GTM Libra over the Spyder because it looks better and is reasonably practical. I had no interest in having a rag top. The Libra has a removable roof panel and I have only taken it out 4 times in 3 1/2 years.
Who are you expecting to buy your car?
What would you expect the build cost to be?
Is it going to be pitched against the Ultima?
I'm sure it would be easier to answer your question if we knew more about your design.
If the car was capable of being a reasonable road car, with space for some luggage etc then fixed head would be my choice.
If it was something biased more towards trackdays then weight would be a concern, comfort less. I would want something along the lines of a JP15.
The cost of the 2 different models wouldn't make any difference.
I went for the GTM Libra over the Spyder because it looks better and is reasonably practical. I had no interest in having a rag top. The Libra has a removable roof panel and I have only taken it out 4 times in 3 1/2 years.
Who are you expecting to buy your car?
What would you expect the build cost to be?
Is it going to be pitched against the Ultima?
I'm sure it would be easier to answer your question if we knew more about your design.
Edited by rdodger on Saturday 9th January 11:04
Some good points raised so far, thanks for the replies which I am considering carefully. I realise I need to be a bit more specific about what I have in mind, so here goes. I didn’t put all this into the first post because it would just have been a bit much if nobody had had anything they wanted to say about it.
First of all, sorry there are no pics, the design of the first, open version is virtually complete but I have agreed with the designers that we won’t publish any renderings at this stage. Apart from anything else there are a couple of areas that haven't been finalised yet and we don't want to leave them blank!
Also, and I’m sorry for sounding coy about this, we need to be a bit closer to actual production before giving away details that would be useful to competing manufacturers. The project car does include a couple of ideas that I haven’t yet seen in another kit car.
What I can say is that the car is mid-engined, and is based on an readily available donor. Overall the build costs should be no higher than a decent spec Seven. The bodywork designer is paying close, and skilled, attention to the aerodynamics, and we confidently expect the car to be noticeably faster at higher speeds.
The car will be a bit heavier than most sevens due to having more fibreglass and more steel (especially in the sides where there is considerable stiffening and side impact protection).The car has been deliberately specified to provide more interior space than is common with kit cars, though there won’t be much luggage room.
There are various reasons why I ask the question about the closed version-
1)The top speed this car will be capable of is at the kind of level where I for one would prefer a windscreen and some kind of side window if I wasn’t wearing a full helmet.
2)The weather, even during the summer, recently, has been pretty bad, and what’s worse, unpredictable. I wouldn’t want to drive any open car a long distance to a meeting or a show in the pouring rain.
3)There may be a parking security issue too
4)When I am constructing the buck, something that is scheduled to start very soon, there is scope for me to, with some extra time, effort and materials, to provide for a closed version as well as the open version which is going to happen anyway, so I need to make that decision very soon.
Thanks for the replies, they will all be carefully considered
First of all, sorry there are no pics, the design of the first, open version is virtually complete but I have agreed with the designers that we won’t publish any renderings at this stage. Apart from anything else there are a couple of areas that haven't been finalised yet and we don't want to leave them blank!
Also, and I’m sorry for sounding coy about this, we need to be a bit closer to actual production before giving away details that would be useful to competing manufacturers. The project car does include a couple of ideas that I haven’t yet seen in another kit car.
What I can say is that the car is mid-engined, and is based on an readily available donor. Overall the build costs should be no higher than a decent spec Seven. The bodywork designer is paying close, and skilled, attention to the aerodynamics, and we confidently expect the car to be noticeably faster at higher speeds.
The car will be a bit heavier than most sevens due to having more fibreglass and more steel (especially in the sides where there is considerable stiffening and side impact protection).The car has been deliberately specified to provide more interior space than is common with kit cars, though there won’t be much luggage room.
There are various reasons why I ask the question about the closed version-
1)The top speed this car will be capable of is at the kind of level where I for one would prefer a windscreen and some kind of side window if I wasn’t wearing a full helmet.
2)The weather, even during the summer, recently, has been pretty bad, and what’s worse, unpredictable. I wouldn’t want to drive any open car a long distance to a meeting or a show in the pouring rain.
3)There may be a parking security issue too
4)When I am constructing the buck, something that is scheduled to start very soon, there is scope for me to, with some extra time, effort and materials, to provide for a closed version as well as the open version which is going to happen anyway, so I need to make that decision very soon.
Thanks for the replies, they will all be carefully considered
andygtt said:
Id disagree... I think the buyers are going to be totally different, you wont tempt someone who wants a weathproof car into a completely open one even if its half the money.
Of cause the open car SHOULD be lighter and thus faster so apeal to more hardcore people...
Case in example is the old Ultima syders.... I hated them and so completely dismissed Ultimas and I didn't like the closed one (sports or GTR)... then the canam came out with full screen and I was smitten.
Cost differential wasnt even a consideration.
I Disagree with Andy. So Far Ultima have sold 3 GTR's to every Can-Am, acording to one thread just recently......Of cause the open car SHOULD be lighter and thus faster so apeal to more hardcore people...
Case in example is the old Ultima syders.... I hated them and so completely dismissed Ultimas and I didn't like the closed one (sports or GTR)... then the canam came out with full screen and I was smitten.
Cost differential wasnt even a consideration.
Hard Top For me every time...
singlecoil said:
1)The top speed this car will be capable of is at the kind of level where I for one would prefer a windscreen and some kind of side window if I wasn’t wearing a full helmet.
2)The weather, even during the summer, recently, has been pretty bad, and what’s worse, unpredictable. I wouldn’t want to drive any open car a long distance to a meeting or a show in the pouring rain.
3)There may be a parking security issue too
OK, so you have identified 3 problems that you foresee with an open car.2)The weather, even during the summer, recently, has been pretty bad, and what’s worse, unpredictable. I wouldn’t want to drive any open car a long distance to a meeting or a show in the pouring rain.
3)There may be a parking security issue too
I think we can all agree that closed cars outsell open ones by 3 to 1 (if we can agree that the Ultima is representative)
And after all this, you are going ahead anyway, with an OPEN car, with the later possibility of a CLOSED one.
You have got this the wrong way round, if this is a serious commercial venture IMHO.
Regards
pilbeam_mp62 said:
singlecoil said:
1)The top speed this car will be capable of is at the kind of level where I for one would prefer a windscreen and some kind of side window if I wasn’t wearing a full helmet.
2)The weather, even during the summer, recently, has been pretty bad, and what’s worse, unpredictable. I wouldn’t want to drive any open car a long distance to a meeting or a show in the pouring rain.
3)There may be a parking security issue too
OK, so you have identified 3 problems that you foresee with an open car.2)The weather, even during the summer, recently, has been pretty bad, and what’s worse, unpredictable. I wouldn’t want to drive any open car a long distance to a meeting or a show in the pouring rain.
3)There may be a parking security issue too
I think we can all agree that closed cars outsell open ones by 3 to 1 (if we can agree that the Ultima is representative)
And after all this, you are going ahead anyway, with an OPEN car, with the later possibility of a CLOSED one.
You have got this the wrong way round, if this is a serious commercial venture IMHO.
Regards
In order to forestall the follow up question as to why I started this thread now, the answer is that I need to decide how much extra effort to go to now to make the future upgrade easier.
From the tone of your description this is not going to be a stripped out play thing and is aimed at a little more sophistication. In which case you have no choice but to design your closed version from the start.
An Ultima CanAm can be changed from a low perspex fly screen to a full screen and hood in about 20 minutes because it is designed that way from the outset.
Steve
PS Clive may be right in GTR/CanAm 3:1 but they can both be considered 'closed' in the OP's original definition. Open would be the CanAm with fly screen which I have very rarely seen out and about so kelvin's figure IMHO is on the low side. If open is just a fly screen then 99% of Ultima are closed.
An Ultima CanAm can be changed from a low perspex fly screen to a full screen and hood in about 20 minutes because it is designed that way from the outset.
Steve
PS Clive may be right in GTR/CanAm 3:1 but they can both be considered 'closed' in the OP's original definition. Open would be the CanAm with fly screen which I have very rarely seen out and about so kelvin's figure IMHO is on the low side. If open is just a fly screen then 99% of Ultima are closed.
The thing about kit cars is they tend to have an underlying space frame chassis. If the body isn't structural, then much of the advantage of a roof is lost (although the aerodynamics will obviously still benefit).
However, I personally think that cars almost always look better in coupe form and with mainstream performance cars (usually designed as a fully enclosed monocoque and then beheaded for the posers version...) the coupe is almost always the one to go for. As a result, the fixed head will tend to be seen as the more serious one.
However, I personally think that cars almost always look better in coupe form and with mainstream performance cars (usually designed as a fully enclosed monocoque and then beheaded for the posers version...) the coupe is almost always the one to go for. As a result, the fixed head will tend to be seen as the more serious one.
GTRCLIVE said:
andygtt said:
Id disagree... I think the buyers are going to be totally different, you wont tempt someone who wants a weathproof car into a completely open one even if its half the money.
Of cause the open car SHOULD be lighter and thus faster so apeal to more hardcore people...
Case in example is the old Ultima syders.... I hated them and so completely dismissed Ultimas and I didn't like the closed one (sports or GTR)... then the canam came out with full screen and I was smitten.
Cost differential wasnt even a consideration.
I Disagree with Andy. So Far Ultima have sold 3 GTR's to every Can-Am, acording to one thread just recently......Of cause the open car SHOULD be lighter and thus faster so apeal to more hardcore people...
Case in example is the old Ultima syders.... I hated them and so completely dismissed Ultimas and I didn't like the closed one (sports or GTR)... then the canam came out with full screen and I was smitten.
Cost differential wasnt even a consideration.
Hard Top For me every time...
Also MOST ultima owners want a COMPLETELY enclosed car the rest mostly want a proper weather proof car... very very few choose the completly open car with no screen at all even though its supposed to be a summer car and is about £1k cheaper (4k for the convertible car cause the hood is £3k!!!).
I love open cars... but wouldnt have a completely open car.
Now I know a little more about your car Id actually like to throw another curve ball... there are loads of open to 7's out there... and almost none of them have a decent closed top.
Could you be missing a large potential market and instea targeting a hugely compentetive market by not having a closed top car?
I appreaciate extra cost of development... Ive spent 300hrs on my doors and hinges alone and speant around 50hrs on the windscreen suround.
Guess its all down to your target market.
pilbeam_mp62 said:
singlecoil said:
What I can say is that the car is mid-engined, and is based on an readily available donor.
Which donor car is it ?I am sure that you can at least tell us that.
Regards
andygtt said:
Now I know a little more about your car Id actually like to throw another curve ball... there are loads of open to 7's out there... and almost none of them have a decent closed top.
Could you be missing a large potential market and instea targeting a hugely compentetive market by not having a closed top car?
I thought that up, down and sideways, and failed to come up with a viable project. I also tried to think up a way of making a hardtop which could be modified to fit the various similar but slightly different sizes and shapes of 7s already out there, but again was unable to come up with anything that had a decent chance of workingCould you be missing a large potential market and instea targeting a hugely compentetive market by not having a closed top car?
andygtt said:
I appreaciate extra cost of development... Ive spent 300hrs on my doors and hinges alone and speant around 50hrs on the windscreen suround.
I'm not in the least surprised.I'm totally convinved that a closed car is the way to go, but when I said earlier that I couldn't afford it, I didn't mean that I was choosing not to afford it, I meant that I was simply unable to put my hands on the resources necessary.
I reckon the open car will still sell a good few especially at the comparatively low build cost, so once I've got things moving I will have another look at the closed version, and at the some time incorporate any improvements that suggest themselves.
singlecoil said:
Also, and I’m sorry for sounding coy about this, we need to be a bit closer to actual production before giving away details that would be useful to competing manufacturers. The project car does include a couple of ideas that I haven’t yet seen in another kit car.
From what you're telling us it does sound like a breaktrough design in the kitcar industry, I'm really curious and looking forward to seeing the finished kit and the new ideas incorporated.Are you going to be showing the kit at Stoneleigh this year ?
fuoriserie said:
singlecoil said:
Also, and I’m sorry for sounding coy about this, we need to be a bit closer to actual production before giving away details that would be useful to competing manufacturers. The project car does include a couple of ideas that I haven’t yet seen in another kit car.
From what you're telling us it does sound like a breaktrough design in the kitcar industry, I'm really curious and looking forward to seeing the finished kit and the new ideas incorporated.Are you going to be showing the kit at Stoneleigh this year ?
.Our car will combine a number of ideas and influences from various sources with a couple of new ideas, one of which is as simple as providing more leg and shoulder room than is usual in a kit car!
I would love to be able to get something to Stoneleigh this year, even if it isn't a finished car, but would have to admit that that is very unlikely. I might have got as far as a set of body panels by then, though, which I see as being the most important part of the project.
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