Pininfarina Alfa Romeo Duett...
Discussion
Is there any reason why it shouldn't be possible to reshape a Fisher Fury (or similar) body to look like this -
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20100227/GENEVA/10...
Is there a cheap(ish) way of making a bodyshell that is on the lighter side?
Would then want to redesign the cockpit to bring upto date. Lots of carbon and leather. In black.
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20100227/GENEVA/10...
Is there a cheap(ish) way of making a bodyshell that is on the lighter side?
Would then want to redesign the cockpit to bring upto date. Lots of carbon and leather. In black.
groomi said:
Well, once you've fitted the wheels at an odd angle to the body, made a horizontal windscreen that is pressed up against your throat and taken off your suspension because there's nowhere for the wheel to move, then it'll be great...
Absolutely! I don't like those 'concept' sketches either. There are some people on this forum who do like them, though.Try getting in touch with John Barlow who designed the old Royale Sabres and the Veranti. He uses a company based in Wigan to make his bodyshells that would be able to give you plenty of detail about making fibreglass bodies.
If you manage to get something that looks similar then let me know as I like your idea! I think something that looks modern like that is what the kit car industry needs right now as it just seems to be dying off when it comes to original designs. There hasn't been something modern and stylish for quite a while.
If you manage to get something that looks similar then let me know as I like your idea! I think something that looks modern like that is what the kit car industry needs right now as it just seems to be dying off when it comes to original designs. There hasn't been something modern and stylish for quite a while.
groomi said:
Well, once you've fitted the wheels at an odd angle to the body, made a horizontal windscreen that is pressed up against your throat and taken off your suspension because there's nowhere for the wheel to move, then it'll be great...
I didn't mean to make a 'carbon' copy, just use the sketch as a starting point to come up with a design that was more modern. Nothing wrong with the Fury as it is, just looking a bit dated.I think everyone realizes you can't just scale up a drawing, or would even want to.
Jonty355 said:
Try getting in touch with John Barlow who designed the old Royale Sabres and the Veranti. He uses a company based in Wigan to make his bodyshells that would be able to give you plenty of detail about making fibreglass bodies.
Thanks for the info. I used to work for a company that made Formula Fords, so know about wet lay up. I am guessing that things ave moved on since then. The company also restored D-Types and the odd Bugatti, which were both fun to work on.Jonty355 said:
If you manage to get something that looks similar then let me know as I like your idea! I think something that looks modern like that is what the kit car industry needs right now as it just seems to be dying off when it comes to original designs. There hasn't been something modern and stylish for quite a while.
I will let you know what progress I make.Cheers! Hope you manage to get somewhere with it. I cant see it being too difficult if you have a way of making the body. All you have to do is get the design and adapt it to fit the wheelsbase and other measurements of the sylva or a 7 derived car.
The windscreen may be a bit tricky going by that Jaguar XK180 concept car, as apparently you couldn't see out of it, which is one of the reasons it stayed a concept I'm guessing. But if it was low enough, then it could just be something that you look over? The only problem then is in an accident it may decapitate you.... but what a way to go!
The windscreen may be a bit tricky going by that Jaguar XK180 concept car, as apparently you couldn't see out of it, which is one of the reasons it stayed a concept I'm guessing. But if it was low enough, then it could just be something that you look over? The only problem then is in an accident it may decapitate you.... but what a way to go!
Olivero said:
I think everyone realizes you can't just scale up a drawing, or would even want to.
Thing is though, once you have removed the physical impossibilities from as distorted a sketch as the one featured, what's left? This is the problem with sketches like that, they really don't show anything that could be built or which would work if it was. The expression 'chocolate teapot' comes to mind.I believe that sketching a new car that actually could be built and work properly and which would still be attractive, is a lot more difficult and which is why designers prefer not to do so.
singlecoil said:
Olivero said:
I think everyone realizes you can't just scale up a drawing, or would even want to.
Thing is though, once you have removed the physical impossibilities from as distorted a sketch as the one featured, what's left? This is the problem with sketches like that, they really don't show anything that could be built or which would work if it was. The expression 'chocolate teapot' comes to mind.I believe that sketching a new car that actually could be built and work properly and which would still be attractive, is a lot more difficult and which is why designers prefer not to do so.
I hope that designers don't find 'car design' too hard, otherwise they are making themselves redundant. I do understand that for a mass produced car the restrictions are huge with regard to EU testing and a common design will not be a big risk to sell. On the other hand, the kit car/small volume companies in the UK could and should really come up with better designs.
This is why I liked the idea of the Alfa. Easy to make in small numbers, to be sold to a small number of people who like the idea of something different.
The parts/ideas I would keep from the sketch would be the harder lines and back. Then give me (smaller) lights like the 599 with the same sweep.
http://pistonheads.com/sales/1494965.htm
singlecoil said:
Olivero said:
I think everyone realizes you can't just scale up a drawing, or would even want to.
Thing is though, once you have removed the physical impossibilities from as distorted a sketch as the one featured, what's left? This is the problem with sketches like that, they really don't show anything that could be built or which would work if it was.singlecoil said:
I believe that sketching a new car that actually could be built and work properly and which would still be attractive, is a lot more difficult and which is why designers prefer not to do so.
Speaking as somebody who used to do such sketches, I can at least defend them in the sense that they are useful in 'selling' an idea to someone, but then take an awful long time to develop into something that can actually work while still capturing the 'essence' of the original sketch.Perhaps my original comment was a tad facetious, but I wouldn't want to build a car to look like a sketch. I'd want to turn the sketch into a workable model, then build a car to match the model - but that takes serious time and skill and few people have both. Not to say it can't be done because ofcourse it can, but it's not easy - hence why kitcars tend to look the way they do.
Y-A-W-N ....and there are some on these forums with simplistic opinions concerning matters they refuse to even try to understand. If you can't see the point of them - and surely any fool can see it's a case of all car designers being lazy, feckless or incompetent - then they are of course pointless (ego much?) Why don't you sent Pininfarina a stiff letter to that effect?
The criticisms raised might be valid if this were a measured or elevation drawing, or even a photo of a model - but it's a sketch, the definition of which it might serve to familiarise yourself with.
/rant mode off
Couple of shots attached (@ 25%, can send all shots at full size if you want, could also check media pack.) I'd only seen the blue sketch before the show, which is more accurate - doubtless from a later stage in the design process. The Duetta was nice enough but a little bland in the flesh, but needs a clever detail to lift the whole thing - maybe some brightwork on the mirrors, an alloy fuel cap and door handles like those from the new Giulietta, which are really nice and classier than the handles on the new XJ and BMW 5. The proportions would need reworking and the whole thing shrinking to fit to fit a Fury, but something like would be possible, and be light years ahead of most kitcar offerings. Will it happen? Highly unlikely, for reasons discussed elsewhere.
Also spotted these new Hella units on a couple of cars, saw some indicators too but it was only when I looked at my photo again that I noticed that they appear to be distinct inner & outer units.
Finally the Westfield iRacer, which interestingly the white centre section is fabric 'bodywork' stretched over a metal frame
The criticisms raised might be valid if this were a measured or elevation drawing, or even a photo of a model - but it's a sketch, the definition of which it might serve to familiarise yourself with.
/rant mode off
Couple of shots attached (@ 25%, can send all shots at full size if you want, could also check media pack.) I'd only seen the blue sketch before the show, which is more accurate - doubtless from a later stage in the design process. The Duetta was nice enough but a little bland in the flesh, but needs a clever detail to lift the whole thing - maybe some brightwork on the mirrors, an alloy fuel cap and door handles like those from the new Giulietta, which are really nice and classier than the handles on the new XJ and BMW 5. The proportions would need reworking and the whole thing shrinking to fit to fit a Fury, but something like would be possible, and be light years ahead of most kitcar offerings. Will it happen? Highly unlikely, for reasons discussed elsewhere.
Also spotted these new Hella units on a couple of cars, saw some indicators too but it was only when I looked at my photo again that I noticed that they appear to be distinct inner & outer units.
Finally the Westfield iRacer, which interestingly the white centre section is fabric 'bodywork' stretched over a metal frame
seansverige said:
Y-A-W-N ....and there are some on these forums with simplistic opinions concerning matters they refuse to even try to understand. If you can't see the point of them - and surely any fool can see it's a case of all car designers being lazy, feckless or incompetent - then they are of course pointless (ego much?) Why don't you sent Pininfarina a stiff letter to that effect?
The criticisms raised might be valid if this were a measured or elevation drawing, or even a photo of a model - but it's a sketch, the definition of which it might serve to familiarise yourself with.
I expect I'm one of those people with simplistic opinions that you are having a go at, so I will reply. First point is that your yawn is quite ironic, considering that by far the most predictable response to the points on this thread has come from you!The criticisms raised might be valid if this were a measured or elevation drawing, or even a photo of a model - but it's a sketch, the definition of which it might serve to familiarise yourself with.
Second point is concerning the value of sketches when assessing a design. My feeling, which I am entitled to and will repeat as often as necessary, is that sketches that are too distorted to exist in reality are useless for anything except publicity to be published in newspapers and magazines, to then be judged by people who are poorly qualified to do so, and who certainly won't be aware of the engineering and other problems.
seansverige said:
The Duetta was nice enough but a little bland in the flesh, but needs a clever detail to lift the whole thing - maybe some brightwork on the mirrors, an alloy fuel cap and door handles like those from the new Giulietta, which are really nice and classier than the handles on the new XJ and BMW 5.
This comment was predictable too, how the f
k Pinninfarina have coped over the years without your input I have no idea. 
Predictable yes, but at best worst this surely just makes us as predictable as each other? You werely clearly fishing in your post so I dutifully bit - in these uncertain times isn't it nice that there are some things you can still rely on? 
I thought it'd brighten your day: it gave you an opportunity to reiterate your point which, yes, you are fully entitled to repeat ad nauseum - a right I fear you will exercise to the fullest.
I would love to debate this further, but the use of sketches in the design process is pretty big topic and reducing it to the idea that all such sketches are pointless based on your perception of their usefulness (which you've yet to support in any objectively quantifiable way) IS simplistic, and then using that assumption to draw a general conclusion about a whole profession is flawed logic, to put it mildly. And however offensive one finds it, surely a quick sketch like this isn't as bad as a 3D model with a level of photorealistic (but unfeasible) detailing that someone has slaved hours over?
I am happy to discuss the validity of the opinion I expressed about the Duetta; unless the consensus is that it's perfect, it is not beyond criticism. My comments were constructive criticism concerning a specific area of the finished artifact rather than a sweeping generalisation based on a single sketch of it.
To show there are no hard feelings, and because I'm worried about the toll future repetition may take on your joints, I spent literally some minutes knocking up the attached labour saving form for future use. No thanks necessary, really.
I thought it'd brighten your day: it gave you an opportunity to reiterate your point which, yes, you are fully entitled to repeat ad nauseum - a right I fear you will exercise to the fullest.I would love to debate this further, but the use of sketches in the design process is pretty big topic and reducing it to the idea that all such sketches are pointless based on your perception of their usefulness (which you've yet to support in any objectively quantifiable way) IS simplistic, and then using that assumption to draw a general conclusion about a whole profession is flawed logic, to put it mildly. And however offensive one finds it, surely a quick sketch like this isn't as bad as a 3D model with a level of photorealistic (but unfeasible) detailing that someone has slaved hours over?
I am happy to discuss the validity of the opinion I expressed about the Duetta; unless the consensus is that it's perfect, it is not beyond criticism. My comments were constructive criticism concerning a specific area of the finished artifact rather than a sweeping generalisation based on a single sketch of it.
To show there are no hard feelings, and because I'm worried about the toll future repetition may take on your joints, I spent literally some minutes knocking up the attached labour saving form for future use. No thanks necessary, really.
seansverige said:
Predictable yes, but at best worst this surely just makes us as predictable as each other? You werely clearly fishing in your post so I dutifully bit - in these uncertain times isn't it nice that there are some things you can still rely on? I thought it'd brighten your day: it gave you an opportunity to reiterate your point which, yes, you are fully entitled to repeat ad nauseum - a right I fear you will exercise to the fullest.
Actually my opinion of sketches such as the one we are discussing exists independantly of what I think might be you reaction to it might be. I don't hold and express the opinion because I think you might dislike such opinion. Sorry if that disapponts. I thought it'd brighten your day: it gave you an opportunity to reiterate your point which, yes, you are fully entitled to repeat ad nauseum - a right I fear you will exercise to the fullest.We are obviously going to have to agree to disagree about this point. In support of my side of the argument I will add that although I do of course understand what a sketch is, and what a normal sketch is for, my dislike for sketches which are deliberately distorted has existed for a long time and seems to me, and at least a couple of others, to be entirely reasonable.
I love this you might need a bigger form. Can you add some more
No consideration for engine or drive train.
No consideration for fitting a averaged sized human
No unrealistic curved perspectives
General section
All designers must endeavor to make every design they post look completely different. This includes color schemes, wheel designs and all other fixtures an fittings imaginary or otherwise that routinely get repeated across the body of work by the individual designer.
No consideration for engine or drive train.
No consideration for fitting a averaged sized human
No unrealistic curved perspectives
General section
All designers must endeavor to make every design they post look completely different. This includes color schemes, wheel designs and all other fixtures an fittings imaginary or otherwise that routinely get repeated across the body of work by the individual designer.
Tricky1984 said:
I love this you might need a bigger form. Can you add some more
No consideration for engine or drive train.
No consideration for fitting a averaged sized human
No unrealistic curved perspectives
General section
All designers must endeavor to make every design they post look completely different. This includes color schemes, wheel designs and all other fixtures an fittings imaginary or otherwise that routinely get repeated across the body of work by the individual designer.
No consideration for engine or drive train.
No consideration for fitting a averaged sized human
No unrealistic curved perspectives
General section
All designers must endeavor to make every design they post look completely different. This includes color schemes, wheel designs and all other fixtures an fittings imaginary or otherwise that routinely get repeated across the body of work by the individual designer.
I'm sure my opinion is as important to you as yours is to me. And let's be honest, your objection isn't confined to 'deliberately distorted' sketches but anything deficient in your defined level of detail; and with every new sketch you seem to be more indignant, or at least more vociferous, in your objection whilst refusing to consider the possibility how such sketches might be of use in the design process - which just seems perverse. And referring to unspecified others (which I did not presume was aimed directly at me) is more likely to invite a response.
Attached is the other sketch Pinifarina teased ahead of the unveiling and whilst I'm sure is still deficient in many regards is more realistic - but for reasons I won't detain you with here, this is the one far more likely to have been created after the fact as part of the sale process. The red sketch looks like a theme sketch (specifically concerned with surface development) that could have been genuinely part of design process as one of tens, probably hundreds, of sketches generated, which was then (wisely or not) selected for public presentation, in many regards out of context.
(sorry, only size I could find)
In this case, if analysing the design was the issue, why not just wait until the unveiling the next day?
Italo, that sketch is truly awful - where did you find it? I am genuinely struggling to identify the motive or purpose for it. Gotta love the fact that they've drawn brake discs (but hard up against the wheel so no clearance for caliper) for verité, and apparently those 595/5 R30 tyres are buggers for aquaplaning, which leads me to....
[ ] wheels must be circular
also
The following items have been omitted:
[ ] door handles [ ] wing mirrors
[ ] number plate [ ] windscreen wipers
Attached is the other sketch Pinifarina teased ahead of the unveiling and whilst I'm sure is still deficient in many regards is more realistic - but for reasons I won't detain you with here, this is the one far more likely to have been created after the fact as part of the sale process. The red sketch looks like a theme sketch (specifically concerned with surface development) that could have been genuinely part of design process as one of tens, probably hundreds, of sketches generated, which was then (wisely or not) selected for public presentation, in many regards out of context.
(sorry, only size I could find)
In this case, if analysing the design was the issue, why not just wait until the unveiling the next day?
Italo, that sketch is truly awful
- where did you find it? I am genuinely struggling to identify the motive or purpose for it. Gotta love the fact that they've drawn brake discs (but hard up against the wheel so no clearance for caliper) for verité, and apparently those 595/5 R30 tyres are buggers for aquaplaning, which leads me to....[ ] wheels must be circular
also
The following items have been omitted:
[ ] door handles [ ] wing mirrors
[ ] number plate [ ] windscreen wipers
seansverige said:
I'm sure my opinion is as important to you as yours is to me. And let's be honest, your objection isn't confined to 'deliberately distorted' sketches but anything deficient in your defined level of detail; and with every new sketch you seem to be more indignant, or at least more vociferous, in your objection whilst refusing to consider the possibility how such sketches might be of use in the design process - which just seems perverse. And referring to unspecified others (which I did not presume was aimed directly at me) is more likely to invite a response.
I don't know why you are keeping on with this, and making assumptions about my attitudes.You are starting to come across like an axe-grinding t
t.Since you have arrived here we have been treated to an almost endless list of your critiques of others' work. How about putting something up that's come fom your presumably perfect pen?
[/footnote]
Edited by singlecoil on Friday 12th March 07:55
seansverige said:
Italo, that sketch is truly awful - where did you find it? I am genuinely struggling to identify the motive or purpose for it. Gotta love the fact that they've drawn brake discs (but hard up against the wheel so no clearance for caliper) for verité, and apparently those 595/5 R30 tyres are buggers for aquaplaning, which leads me to....
]
I guess you won't be working for Mercedes anytime soon... - where did you find it? I am genuinely struggling to identify the motive or purpose for it. Gotta love the fact that they've drawn brake discs (but hard up against the wheel so no clearance for caliper) for verité, and apparently those 595/5 R30 tyres are buggers for aquaplaning, which leads me to....]
http://archive.cardesignnews.com/news/2006/060220m...
Sketches by Gorden Wagener now head of design at Mercedes, he was one of the most notable big wheel sketcher of the 90's and 2000, in car design studios, most of his sketches had 30' wheels........and he is now head of design at Mercedes.
The Mercedes Class R with his sketches and picture of him drawing ....
Edited by fuoriserie on Friday 12th March 10:24
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