GTM LIBRA withdrawn from production
Discussion
fuoriserie said:
I just read that the GTM Libra was withdrawn from production due to the demise of new Rover parts.
What a shame for a very good kitcar, but was just wondering if it would have been too expensive to re-engineer with a different powerplant ?
That's a shame. Do you have a link?What a shame for a very good kitcar, but was just wondering if it would have been too expensive to re-engineer with a different powerplant ?
singlecoil said:
fuoriserie said:
I just read that the GTM Libra was withdrawn from production due to the demise of new Rover parts.
What a shame for a very good kitcar, but was just wondering if it would have been too expensive to re-engineer with a different powerplant ?
That's a shame. Do you have a link?What a shame for a very good kitcar, but was just wondering if it would have been too expensive to re-engineer with a different powerplant ?
http://www.completekitcar.co.uk/Issue/march2010.ht...
Sounds to me like Potenza aren't trying very hard. I don't know exactly what parts they feel they need to be able to buy new from Rover, but there are always ways around such snags. Would need some re-engineering of course, but I shouldn't think that need involve the actual monocoque bodyshell.
fuoriserie said:
I just read that the GTM Libra was withdrawn from production due to the demise of new Rover parts.
Does everybody WANT to use new parts??Sounds like an excuse to me.
Does the parts supply problem mean you aren't able to wash the bloody demonstrator before putting it on the stand at the biggest showcase of the year???
Pity someone who understands kitcars didn't buy it.
Hey-ho.
When I was speaking with a guy I know well at Westfield the biggest issue they were having was scourcing the LHD metro rack they were using. When they could get them they were £750 each!!
There was a plan to redesign the car to use the bits from the Westfield front & rear suspension but maybe that was put on hold due to the lack of sales they were having.
The other issue was cost, the demonstrator they had with the Honda engine was knocking on £30k which is big bucks, hence the need to reduce the overall cost by sharing the running gear.
It is sad as it is/was a cracking car but when a boxster secondhand is in the same leauge, not many would chose a handbuilt car.
There was a plan to redesign the car to use the bits from the Westfield front & rear suspension but maybe that was put on hold due to the lack of sales they were having.
The other issue was cost, the demonstrator they had with the Honda engine was knocking on £30k which is big bucks, hence the need to reduce the overall cost by sharing the running gear.
It is sad as it is/was a cracking car but when a boxster secondhand is in the same leauge, not many would chose a handbuilt car.
spaximus said:
The other issue was cost, the demonstrator they had with the Honda engine was knocking on £30k which is big bucks, hence the need to reduce the overall cost by sharing the running gear.
It is sad as it is/was a cracking car but when a boxster secondhand is in the same leauge, not many would chose a handbuilt car.
I think this is a particular problem in the kit car market. As the product gets better, more sophisticated and offers accommodation and comfort in line with production cars, so its price inevitably increases. If you are offering something that goes well beyond the performance of production cars, in the way Ultima do, then price isn't really too much of a problem. But when it's only the equivalent, then it is.It is sad as it is/was a cracking car but when a boxster secondhand is in the same leauge, not many would chose a handbuilt car.
Meridian motorsports in Moorabbin in Melbourne has a couple of demonstrators (coupe and convertible versions) as they had the local rights to distribute these cars or did a couple of years back. I believe that they were built using locally sourced components. Can’t remember the engine think it might have been the Eunos 300ex v6 that they had in it.
It has been done.
I can’t believe that the rack is a huge issue. There are so many front/rear steer racks available that it would just be a matter of working out one with a suitable pinion angle and shortening or lengthen it to suit.
It has been done.
I can’t believe that the rack is a huge issue. There are so many front/rear steer racks available that it would just be a matter of working out one with a suitable pinion angle and shortening or lengthen it to suit.
I wonder if re-engineering the Libra with a spaceframe chassis and separate body would make it cheaper to manufacture and still keep the car in production ? would it be worth it?
Maybe the should sell the project to someone that could focus more time on a unique product...as I still think the car has a niche market in the current and future kitcar industry.
Maybe the should sell the project to someone that could focus more time on a unique product...as I still think the car has a niche market in the current and future kitcar industry.
Edited by fuoriserie on Thursday 11th March 08:21
spaximus said:
It is sad as it is/was a cracking car but when a boxster secondhand is in the same leauge, not many would chose a handbuilt car.
That could be a point. I'd definitely say the Libra had more charisma than a Boxster, but the basic layout, performance etc. were all pretty comparable. While I'd take a Libra over a Boxster any day they're also very similar in price to an S1 Elise and that would be a far harder decision. The Elise also has a slightly leftfield appeal, not dissimilar to a kit, so it might just be too close.The Libra was a fantastic, quality kit and I hope it returns, but it is possible it got a little close to the low-volume end of the ready built market (I can't quite bring myself to describe the likes of Lotus as mass produced!)
Its always surprised me, many of the parts can be purchased as OEM from China and suchlike, westfield and suchlike could easily search and purchase specialist parts that way, it just takes some work. (NB this is what I do for the IT industry, I've even just had my latest device manufactured from scratch for a fraction of what it would cost here in OZ)
I certainly don't find getting hold of rover parts such a struggle, and the parts aren't particularly expensive. I think it's more to do with the actual kit itself, as a rolling car... most of it is bespoke and the tub takes a long time to make which can't be cost effective. I've got to admit if they spaceframed it and started reproducing them, I wouldn't see it as a proper Libra. Infact it would loose it's appeal in some respects for me because it would be less innovative than the original.
Then again I could go round saying I'VE GOT A PROPER ONE
I'd like to see it continue in production, but keeping the monocoque...maybe with some updated styling. As for engine options, I think the Libra is pretty versatile anyway, go honda or toyota instead.
To be honest I don't see GTM as GTM anymore, lets face it, whatever gets built...whether a modified Libra copy, or a new type of GTM, it'll still be a Westfield. As much as I dont want to say it, GTM of old is pretty dead and I don't think anyone will come along and do it better than it was done before. Let's just hope someone who knows what they're doing comes along and takes hold of it, either that or westfield get their arses in gear!
Then again I could go round saying I'VE GOT A PROPER ONE
I'd like to see it continue in production, but keeping the monocoque...maybe with some updated styling. As for engine options, I think the Libra is pretty versatile anyway, go honda or toyota instead.
To be honest I don't see GTM as GTM anymore, lets face it, whatever gets built...whether a modified Libra copy, or a new type of GTM, it'll still be a Westfield. As much as I dont want to say it, GTM of old is pretty dead and I don't think anyone will come along and do it better than it was done before. Let's just hope someone who knows what they're doing comes along and takes hold of it, either that or westfield get their arses in gear!
Edited by yazza54 on Thursday 11th March 15:41
spaximus said:
When I was speaking with a guy I know well at Westfield the biggest issue they were having was scourcing the LHD metro rack they were using. When they could get them they were £750 each!!
There was a plan to redesign the car to use the bits from the Westfield front & rear suspension but maybe that was put on hold due to the lack of sales they were having.
The other issue was cost, the demonstrator they had with the Honda engine was knocking on £30k which is big bucks, hence the need to reduce the overall cost by sharing the running gear.
It is sad as it is/was a cracking car but when a boxster secondhand is in the same leauge, not many would chose a handbuilt car.
Rimmer Bros list the MGF LHD manual rack at £324 inc vat. There is an exchange surcharge of £176 inc vat but still ONLY? £500. I would have thought it would be an easy part to swop. The LHD Metro rack is also available at less than £200 inc vat.There was a plan to redesign the car to use the bits from the Westfield front & rear suspension but maybe that was put on hold due to the lack of sales they were having.
The other issue was cost, the demonstrator they had with the Honda engine was knocking on £30k which is big bucks, hence the need to reduce the overall cost by sharing the running gear.
It is sad as it is/was a cracking car but when a boxster secondhand is in the same leauge, not many would chose a handbuilt car.
spaximus said:
It is sad as it is/was a cracking car but when a boxster secondhand is in the same leauge, not many would chose a handbuilt car.
Chris71 said:
...... S1 Elise and that would be a far harder decision. The Elise also has a slightly leftfield appeal, not dissimilar to a kit, so it might just be too close.
Some people are clearly on the wrong forum.Ferg said:
Absolutely.
You can't buy an Elise in kit form so you miss out on an enormous chunk of the benefit of owning one.
Kitcars are for BUILDING.
I get the building bit as a builder of several cars, however the point that I made was not how good the car is/was, as it is excellant, to others it is just another car. Now given the similar price point to a Boxster, or an Elise there are far more who would choose those over the GTM.You can't buy an Elise in kit form so you miss out on an enormous chunk of the benefit of owning one.
Kitcars are for BUILDING.
I wanted my wife to have one but when I was looking the kit was IIRC about £14k plus engine etc, in the end she preferred a new MGTF which came with hardtop abs etc etc for about £4k more, without having to wait for me to build it, a built example from GTM was much more expensive.
It is sad that it has been stopped production and it would be great if it was sold on.
Ferg said:
spaximus said:
It is sad as it is/was a cracking car but when a boxster secondhand is in the same leauge, not many would chose a handbuilt car.
Chris71 said:
...... S1 Elise and that would be a far harder decision. The Elise also has a slightly leftfield appeal, not dissimilar to a kit, so it might just be too close.
Some people are clearly on the wrong forum.My other point was that buying a Lotus is - I would imagine - hardly like rocking up to your local dealership and getting a new MX5 or Boxster. It's still an individual low-volume sports car with its own character and foibles.
Many many years ago I built a kit car. The reasons for building a kit then were
1) The fun, achievement etc of the build
2) Getting a performance level that would have cost a lot more buying any ready made option new or second hand
3) Being able to use the good mechanical bits from a rusty car I already owned
Add those reasons up and buying a kit was a really good option for me. These days reason 1 is still there, but the other two have disappeared, fast cars can be bought quite cheaply, and cars just don't rust the way they used to. So that does have a bearing on the kit car market, and manufacturers really do need to have the mix of price and perceived value just right, and it would seem that that isn't possible with the GTM anymore.
1) The fun, achievement etc of the build
2) Getting a performance level that would have cost a lot more buying any ready made option new or second hand
3) Being able to use the good mechanical bits from a rusty car I already owned
Add those reasons up and buying a kit was a really good option for me. These days reason 1 is still there, but the other two have disappeared, fast cars can be bought quite cheaply, and cars just don't rust the way they used to. So that does have a bearing on the kit car market, and manufacturers really do need to have the mix of price and perceived value just right, and it would seem that that isn't possible with the GTM anymore.
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