Considering Ownership - Advice Needed

[GT Kodiak]

Good Afternoon Gentlemen/Women

Cutting to the chase;

Only recently passed my Driving test, am 21 (22 in a few months).

I love cars (Hence being a member on these forums) and have done since my early teens (perhaps even earlier).

Being a new driver Insurance is taxing and so I currently drive a FWD hatch as might be expected...

However, RWD is of course the puritan drivetrain layout and what I would like to invest my time and money in.

Given that many Kit Cars are powered by bike engines, what are they like to insure (road use predominantly, track use a possibility in the future).

I'm 6ft3" and not 'lanky', chances of me fitting in a kit car? Any marques to avoid for this reason?

Given I like the idea of uprating parts are there any brands which cost a fortune in parts?..

Thank you all for your time and opinions!

[Furyblade_Lee]

Welcome. Kit cars are traditionally easy / cheap to insure BUT I doubt you will get insured on a bike-engined car at your age. I am 36 and still pay about £400 (but with a good mileage allowance). Insurance companies cottoned on the the "it's only 998cc" along time ago!!! Having had a few kits myself if I were you I'd be looking at a Westfield or Mk Indy with a car engine. Buy the best you can afford. But if you want a daily driver I'd consider a nice GTM Libra with a 1.4 or 1.8k series in. I wish I had my Libra when I was 21.....

[GT Kodiak]

Thanks for the words of wisdom!

Crikey, I had convinved myself that if there was one genre of cars that insurance companies would overlook it would be this one...

Interesting that you've recommended a car engine as opposed to a bike, is that due to insurance/reliability/initial cost?

I'm guessing that the 1.6/1.8s are ford engines, most likely from old fiestas/mondeos?..

Cheers

[hidetheelephants]

GT Kodiak said:

Thanks for the words of wisdom!

Crikey, I had convinved myself that if there was one genre of cars that insurance companies would overlook it would be this one...

Interesting that you've recommended a car engine as opposed to a bike, is that due to insurance/reliability/initial cost?

I'm guessing that the 1.6/1.8s are ford engines, most likely from old fiestas/mondeos?..

Cheers

Rover K series

[Lost my mojo]

Speak to MSM insurance. They insured me at 23 on a 1.8 zetec.

[Wanchaiwarrior]

also head over to http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk, its a kit car inspired site that may well prove useful.

HTH

Jamie

[GT Kodiak]

Lost my mojo said:

Speak to MSM insurance. They insured me at 23 on a 1.8 zetec.

MSM?... Unfamilliar with them, will have a poke around

Wanchaiwarrior said:

also head over to http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk, its a kit car inspired site that may well prove useful.

HTH

Jamie

Crikey!

That's a bit of alright! Cheers for the link, whole host of knowledge kicking around there... should keep me busy for a while.

Thanks!

[Lost my mojo]

http://www.msminsurance.co.uk/

I'd give them a call and use a model/ spec of kit that your interested in and see what they say. Always found them to be very helpful.

[Furyblade_Lee]

I only reccomended a car engine to you over a bike engine due to insuring it at your are. Personally if I am driving a car with no windows, doors, roof, luggage space, radio, wearing a crash helmet and wetsuit like a biker then I do mind it sounding like a bike. 0-60 in 4 seconds comes into the equation for me as well!! The only car engined kits I have been in which come close are Ruari Coles' 320bhp cosworth Fury and a Caterham R400. Also, not having access to a proper garage / workshop and being able to take an R1 engine out of the back of my van and drive the car up the Caterham Bypass 75 minutes later with no special tools or hoists holds some appeal for me too! But there is absolutely nothing wrong with car engined kits before the usual arguments start!!!!!!

[GT Kodiak]

Lost my mojo said:

http://www.msminsurance.co.uk/

I'd give them a call and use a model/ spec of kit that your interested in and see what they say. Always found them to be very helpful.

Gave them a tinkle and although they insure 21yr olds on Kit Cars and seemed very approachable they require 1years driving experience which I'm not quite at yet... dang nabbit!

Cheers for the recommendations Lee! I see the appeal of a M-Cycle engine to you! Personally I like the idea of using a car engine,just for the variety of layouts you can get and play with...

Had a look around for Libras but prefer open tops... suggestions?

[slomax]

GT Kodiak said:

Had a look around for Libras but prefer open tops... suggestions?

This somewhat depends on what your budget is and if you want to buy built or build.

[GT Kodiak]

slomax said:

GT Kodiak said:

Had a look around for Libras but prefer open tops... suggestions?

This somewhat depends on what your budget is and if you want to buy built or build.

Budget would be "Value for Money". I'm not bothered by "The best badge" syndrome, don't need lots of bells and whistles (hard to find in a Kit car I know..!). So if it's worth it I'll spend it...

Building it would give me something to do until I can afford to insure it! however it's not a necessity and as much as I could get access to a mig/tig welder it wouldn't be easy so preferably looking at Fibreglass chassis if self building...

So:

open top (lightweight as possible, low CoG)

can't afford a top end kit but not bothered about badge ownership, just want 4 wheels, steering rack, powertrain... seats/suspension/general comfort optional!

limited access to self build (but would enjoy it! that's what it's all about right?)

could even be a single seater...

[matt frost]

Are you looking for a full-car type kit to replace your hatch and be your only car or a second fun car to have alongisde the hatch? If it is the second type and you are looking for a bike-engined 7 etc I would leave it for now as you will kill yourself with your (virtually zero) driving experience. Seriously.

However, if you must go for one, you should be able to get insured on any kit car, it may cost a bit but you probably can be...reason being is that if it is a second car, on the second policy you will have 0 NCB anyway, so it wouldn't matter if you had been building some up from age 17 rather than only recently getting a license. But, I managed to have a lower price because I convinced them that as I had 5 years NCB on my road car I was less risk, so it may play a small part.

Literally 1 or 2 companies will offer you insurance at that age though, everyone else is 25 on the bike-engines. Adrian Flux will definately quote you, but not sure whether it'll be good or bad, but it may be the only option depending on which kit to go for.

[aww999]

I'm ten years older than you, but I bought my first kitcar about six months ago after wanting one since before I could drive!

I went for a Fisher Fury, mine is a spyder which means no doors, no windscreen, no roof or weather gear - I bought it for sunny weekends and trackdays. More bodywork means they are a bit heavier than the 7's but they are more aerodynamic at higher speeds. I am 6'3", about 14 stone, and I fit fine, it's more comfortable than the van I drive all day for work! Different seat design and location will kame a big difference to the cabin space though, so you may not fit in all the cars you try.

Bike vs car engine is a tough one. I went for a car engine (2.0l Zetec in mine) as I was concerned about reliability, and I really like proper H-pattern gearboxes. I also thought the low down torque of a car engine would flatter my lack of driving talent, eg its not so important to be in the right gear on track! The car is plenty fast enough for me, and I have had a Supra that ran 10.9s quarters before this one so I am not easily impressed I suspect insurance costs are going to be your major concern when picking an engine variant though.

Even though mine does most of its miles on track, it is very cheap to run. I have done five days in it so far, and on a full size car it would be time for new tyres, new brakepads, new discs. All I do to mine is put petrol in it (a full day on track is only about £50 in fuel) and change the oil.

They are awesome machines, the very definition of "simple but effective".

[MKnight702]

My understanding is that a CEC is more usable daily on roads and the BEC is more fun for tracks and blats. I've never owned a BEC but have had a Westfield SE with 1600 Ford Pinto, Marlin Roadster with 3.5 V8 and now Westfield XI with 1275 A Series. All are/were superb fun and cheap to insure, on the Marlin I was paying quite a lot less for the 3.5 V8 than we paid to insure the Mazda 323 1.5 GLXi.

I did 38k miles in the first Westfield and enjoyed every one, certainly not the fastest Westfield around but miles quicker than most Euroclones and infinitely more fun.

So I guess what I'm saying is don't get too caught up in the Pub BHP and 0-60 nonsense, try a few cars out and see what you think. My current car has an enormous 70-80bhp from the A Series, but it weighs 500kg, will surprise most other drivers and is an absolute blast to drive.

[GT Kodiak]

Thanks Matt

It'd be second car. The Hatch will still be required for the "shopping run" and daily driving.

I wouldn't be worried about killing myself due to inexperience. I'd have to get used to RWD, the Light Chassis, the low ride position so the first drive would be done very gingerly indeed...

MKnight702 said:

... on the Marlin I was paying quite a lot less for the 3.5 V8 than we paid to insure the Mazda 323 1.5 GLXi.

Whoa!

What had you done to the Mazda?!

As for BHP, not bothered... that can get uprated/modified in time should it be required. First things first is getting it on the road, eh?

Edited by GT Kodiak on Thursday 18th March 10:20

[Chris71]

GT Kodiak said:

Had a look around for Libras but prefer open tops... suggestions?

I swear I'm not being faceacious here (or however you spell it!) but you do know there's an open top Libra don't you? Called the Spyder I believe.

How many companies have you spoken to for quotes? I think you're doing the right thing looking at kits - my first car was a kit (a Quantum) and the main reason was insurance. Even now it's a major bonus - I simply couldn't afford to insure a production car with the point-to-point performance of my Caterham, it costs half as much as my cheapo daily driver.

Some random insurers to try if you haven't already: Footman James, Richard Egger, Adrian Flux, Competition Car Insurance, MSM.

[matt frost]

GT Kodiak said:

Thanks Matt

It'd be second car. The Hatch will still be required for the "shopping run" and daily driving.

I wouldn't be worried about killing myself due to inexperience. I'd have to get used to RWD, the Light Chassis, the low ride position so the first drive would be done very gingerly indeed...

MKnight702 said:

... on the Marlin I was paying quite a lot less for the 3.5 V8 than we paid to insure the Mazda 323 1.5 GLXi.

Whoa!

What had you done to the Mazda?!

As for BHP, not bothered... that can get uprated/modified in time should it be required. First things first is getting it on the road, eh?

Edited by GT Kodiak on Thursday 18th March 10:20

Without sounding like I am starting to pick on you, because I am not trying to, seriously I would look for an in-between step, especially if you are after a bike-engined version.

I am 22, and I have one, so it sounds like I am contradicting myself but I passed my test at 17, drove a 1.2 for 2 years, went for a Clio Sport at 19 and had experience in a Nissan 200sx, a few drives of a modified evo, numerous track days...I had years of experience with driving in general, driving fast and driving fast cars. Even jumping from a 1.2 to a clio sport was a massive step, let alone this. Looking back on it now, I still think at 20 I was too young to be driving something as fast, but I was lucky and am lucky I haven't had any incidents so far. Had my parents known just how fast it is, they wouldn't have let me go for it...infact they didn't know until it was paid for. Then I used the 'it's only a 1.3 litre line'

I am a similar age to you, and it sounds like I am now being condescending but I am not, I am simply warning you, that if you go from what you have straight to something like I have, you will either kill yourself or the car. Anybody who says they will take it easy is dreaming, it does not happen. Some of my friends have been driving 5 or 6 years but in normal hatches, I wouldn't dream of letting them even close to having a go as they would not be ready for it, there is no way that you can be.

We all know what its like to be young and desperate to get your first fast car, by all means do, but don't take the piss LOL. Definately get one, they are fantastic, but get something else fast first. I would honetsly recommend a cliosport, it will get you used to speed, handling, trackdays and will be a great stepping stone. Surely I am not the only one who thinks that going to a BEC 7 in your early 20's with less than 1 year driving a hatch is dangerous?

[aww999]

The potential performance available from a BEC (or even a decent CEC) is massive, and if you drive it like an arse you will crash it. However, the nature of the cars are such that you feel very fragile and exposed when driving fast, rather than being inside a big steel box, so there is a natural inclination to drive it in a more conservative fashion. I'm certainly a lot more cautious about overtaking on the road knowing that my head is level with most trucks bumper! Also, the controls are so responsive that a half decent driver will be able to react to loss of grip more effectively than in a soggy saloon car.

Mind you, if you are totally immune to fear and a less than half decent driver, you will more than likely crash whatever you end up driving!

[nickpan]

matt frost said:

GT Kodiak said:

Thanks Matt

It'd be second car. The Hatch will still be required for the "shopping run" and daily driving.

I wouldn't be worried about killing myself due to inexperience. I'd have to get used to RWD, the Light Chassis, the low ride position so the first drive would be done very gingerly indeed...

MKnight702 said:

... on the Marlin I was paying quite a lot less for the 3.5 V8 than we paid to insure the Mazda 323 1.5 GLXi.

Whoa!

What had you done to the Mazda?!

As for BHP, not bothered... that can get uprated/modified in time should it be required. First things first is getting it on the road, eh?

Edited by GT Kodiak on Thursday 18th March 10:20

Without sounding like I am starting to pick on you, because I am not trying to, seriously I would look for an in-between step, especially if you are after a bike-engined version.

I am 22, and I have one, so it sounds like I am contradicting myself but I passed my test at 17, drove a 1.2 for 2 years, went for a Clio Sport at 19 and had experience in a Nissan 200sx, a few drives of a modified evo, numerous track days...I had years of experience with driving in general, driving fast and driving fast cars. Even jumping from a 1.2 to a clio sport was a massive step, let alone this. Looking back on it now, I still think at 20 I was too young to be driving something as fast, but I was lucky and am lucky I haven't had any incidents so far. Had my parents known just how fast it is, they wouldn't have let me go for it...infact they didn't know until it was paid for. Then I used the 'it's only a 1.3 litre line'

I am a similar age to you, and it sounds like I am now being condescending but I am not, I am simply warning you, that if you go from what you have straight to something like I have, you will either kill yourself or the car. Anybody who says they will take it easy is dreaming, it does not happen. Some of my friends have been driving 5 or 6 years but in normal hatches, I wouldn't dream of letting them even close to having a go as they would not be ready for it, there is no way that you can be.

We all know what its like to be young and desperate to get your first fast car, by all means do, but don't take the piss LOL. Definately get one, they are fantastic, but get something else fast first. I would honetsly recommend a cliosport, it will get you used to speed, handling, trackdays and will be a great stepping stone. Surely I am not the only one who thinks that going to a BEC 7 in your early 20's with less than 1 year driving a hatch is dangerous?

+1 on this. The difference between a kit car and your average road car is predictability. It's pretty hard to get caught out with a road car because it is designed for the road with safety as a priority.

Kits cars are racing cars with number plates. My feeling is, is that the more experience you have as a driver, the better you're able to deal with unpredictability. Have you asked yourself the question, why is it so hard for me to get insurance on this sort of car?

I'd recommend working your way up the ranks a bit and honing your skills some what. Give yourself at least a couple of years on hatches, hot hatches etc.

WE ALL KNOW WHAT THE IMPATIENT FEELING FEELS LIKE BUT IF YOU STACK YOUR KIT CAR, YOU'LL BE PAYING £2K TO INSURE YOURSELF ON A 1.1L FIESTA FOR ETERNITY...

(parental bit over..)

Go for a petrol engine for starters - mines a 1.8 zetec - plenty fast and great sound. Come for a spin if you live around London.

Nick