500bhp/tonne - What would you do?
Discussion
Just interested to know what route people would take to build a kitcar capable of a reliable 500bhp/tonne without spending Atom or R500 money?
I guess there's quite a few different routes including boosted bike or car engines or even heavily tuned big displacement NAs.
The best option I've found so far seems to be a EJ20 powered VStorm although I'm not struck on the design of the car personally.
I guess there's quite a few different routes including boosted bike or car engines or even heavily tuned big displacement NAs.
The best option I've found so far seems to be a EJ20 powered VStorm although I'm not struck on the design of the car personally.
MR2 Jon said:
Just interested to know what route people would take to build a kitcar capable of a reliable 500bhp/tonne without spending Atom or R500 money?
I guess there's quite a few different routes including boosted bike or car engines or even heavily tuned big displacement NAs.
The best option I've found so far seems to be a EJ20 powered VStorm although I'm not struck on the design of the car personally.
It is do-able if you build something like an MEV Atomic or TR1ke if you can get 160BHP from the R1 engine and keep the weight below 320KGs which is deffinately possible if you are prepared to sacrifice comfy seating.I guess there's quite a few different routes including boosted bike or car engines or even heavily tuned big displacement NAs.
The best option I've found so far seems to be a EJ20 powered VStorm although I'm not struck on the design of the car personally.
Thanks for the suggestions so far.. hadn't really looked at MEVs in much detail before but the Atomic is insanely light, you'd get a decent MPG too although it's a shame it's a single seater. The Tr1ke would do it although the concept/design is bit OTT for me.
A fury with an LS2 or something would be incredible.. I assumed they were relatively heavy but just had another look and that doesn't seem to be the case at all.
A fury with an LS2 or something would be incredible.. I assumed they were relatively heavy but just had another look and that doesn't seem to be the case at all.
First off you are a mentalist! :-)
Something like a Caterham or Fury/Phoenix with 400bhp per ton is pretty awesome on track. Anything that will take a bike engine can be turbo'd to get you to 500bhp per ton. To do it reliably would probably end up costing you a similar amount to an R500 (much better than an Atom).
How about S2000 power? I have a friend who is completing a Fury with an S2000 engine on DTA management that should make around 250bhp. Keep it light and you have a chance at 500bhp per ton. Add a supercharger and you should be into 600bhp per ton easy! That would make you a mentalist of the highest order!
Something like a Caterham or Fury/Phoenix with 400bhp per ton is pretty awesome on track. Anything that will take a bike engine can be turbo'd to get you to 500bhp per ton. To do it reliably would probably end up costing you a similar amount to an R500 (much better than an Atom).
How about S2000 power? I have a friend who is completing a Fury with an S2000 engine on DTA management that should make around 250bhp. Keep it light and you have a chance at 500bhp per ton. Add a supercharger and you should be into 600bhp per ton easy! That would make you a mentalist of the highest order!
p1doc said:
do you really need that much bhp-track car only?
martin
Probably not.. i'm asking, more, just out of interest. I going to buy a kitcar with 'normal' power soon but it's interesting to know what the capabilities are of the various options just incase I wanted upgrade later.martin
rdodger said:
First off you are a mentalist! :-)
Something like a Caterham or Fury/Phoenix with 400bhp per ton is pretty awesome on track. Anything that will take a bike engine can be turbo'd to get you to 500bhp per ton. To do it reliably would probably end up costing you a similar amount to an R500 (much better than an Atom).
How about S2000 power? I have a friend who is completing a Fury with an S2000 engine on DTA management that should make around 250bhp. Keep it light and you have a chance at 500bhp per ton. Add a supercharger and you should be into 600bhp per ton easy! That would make you a mentalist of the highest order!
lol Something like a Caterham or Fury/Phoenix with 400bhp per ton is pretty awesome on track. Anything that will take a bike engine can be turbo'd to get you to 500bhp per ton. To do it reliably would probably end up costing you a similar amount to an R500 (much better than an Atom).
How about S2000 power? I have a friend who is completing a Fury with an S2000 engine on DTA management that should make around 250bhp. Keep it light and you have a chance at 500bhp per ton. Add a supercharger and you should be into 600bhp per ton easy! That would make you a mentalist of the highest order!
Yeah I was thinking about getting a bike engined car but the upgrade options do look expensive, as you say.
I'd love an S2000 powered car that really would be awesome. They so seem quite expensive but when compared to supercharging other options, it doesn't start to look that bad and it would be bulletproof with loads of upgrade options. A supercharged F20C would be insane
Edited by MR2 Jon on Thursday 6th May 17:30
If you really concentrate on keeping the weight down, 500bhp/tonne is fairly easy to achieve in a 'Seven' type car, using a modern all-alloy car engine like the K-series or Duratec.
My Westfield would need 212bhp to give that sort of power:weight, which would be relatively easy and reliable from the K-series (though the state of tune on its current engine only gives about 410bhp/tonne.
The problems with achieving high power:weight ratios via very low weight are:
1) The driver/passenger weight has a very significant effect.
2) Aerodynamics rapidly erode the 'effective' power:weight ration at higher speeds.
I agree that these sorts of power:weigh ratio are really only useable on the track, though; the amount of time you can actually deploy the full performance in road use is minimal.
My Westfield would need 212bhp to give that sort of power:weight, which would be relatively easy and reliable from the K-series (though the state of tune on its current engine only gives about 410bhp/tonne.
The problems with achieving high power:weight ratios via very low weight are:
1) The driver/passenger weight has a very significant effect.
2) Aerodynamics rapidly erode the 'effective' power:weight ration at higher speeds.
I agree that these sorts of power:weigh ratio are really only useable on the track, though; the amount of time you can actually deploy the full performance in road use is minimal.
You can build a Fisher Fury down to 430Kg but it will cost quite a lot. Mine came in at 450Kg (http://www.robcollingridge.com/FuryR1) and with decent 4-2-1 manifold and tuning is good for 165bhp. Supercharging costs but will get you over 220bhp and without adding much weight.
After 3 years of ownership, I'm still not thinking I need any more acceleration and speed for road use. Sure it would be nice but the opportunity to open it up fully on public roads arises very infrequently and only then for very short periods of time.
About the only thing I would consider replacing the Fury R1 with is a sub 350Kg single seater. I'd focus on low weight, rather than lots of power. The Fury R1 makes my old Lotus Elise feel over weight. Goes round corners so much quicker and is more controllable on the limit.
After 3 years of ownership, I'm still not thinking I need any more acceleration and speed for road use. Sure it would be nice but the opportunity to open it up fully on public roads arises very infrequently and only then for very short periods of time.
About the only thing I would consider replacing the Fury R1 with is a sub 350Kg single seater. I'd focus on low weight, rather than lots of power. The Fury R1 makes my old Lotus Elise feel over weight. Goes round corners so much quicker and is more controllable on the limit.
MR2 Jon said:
Just interested to know what route people would take to build a kitcar capable of a reliable 500bhp/tonne without spending Atom or R500 money?
I guess there's quite a few different routes including boosted bike or car engines or even heavily tuned big displacement NAs.
The best option I've found so far seems to be a EJ20 powered VStorm although I'm not struck on the design of the car personally.
Simple look at the Deronda Type FI guess there's quite a few different routes including boosted bike or car engines or even heavily tuned big displacement NAs.
The best option I've found so far seems to be a EJ20 powered VStorm although I'm not struck on the design of the car personally.
667 kg and with a VAG engine such as the 1.8T you're pretty much there. If you want to find out what 300bhp feels like in a 667kg car then come along to a track day. Everyone gets out saying the same thing "PHENOMINAL!"
OK I'm a little biased towards this car as I keep having to drive it but I'd love to share it
@Sam Yeah two very vaid points mate.. bhp/tonne is by no means a measure of outright perfomence. I had no idea you could get that much from a k-series thought, very enlightening.
@rob Funnily enough I found your site earlier and had a good nose through the spec. The Fury looks great, definitely the sort of thing i'd be aiming for. I sure 160 would be enough and it's always good to know more can be had down the line. Out of interest, do you know the weight difference between yours and your bros? I see he went for the non-spider version. Interesting to hear about the else anyway, I did wonder how it would stack up.
Nearly went for a single seater but I heard a few stories of people selling them because they couldn't take people out to share the experience and that kinda put me off.
@qdos wow your car looks stunning.. I think it'd take me awhile to get my heard around the styling but I bet its a blast with all the torque from the turbo. I'd be happy to come along to a track day if you ever do any in the south east and I can get away from work.
@rob Funnily enough I found your site earlier and had a good nose through the spec. The Fury looks great, definitely the sort of thing i'd be aiming for. I sure 160 would be enough and it's always good to know more can be had down the line. Out of interest, do you know the weight difference between yours and your bros? I see he went for the non-spider version. Interesting to hear about the else anyway, I did wonder how it would stack up.
Nearly went for a single seater but I heard a few stories of people selling them because they couldn't take people out to share the experience and that kinda put me off.
@qdos wow your car looks stunning.. I think it'd take me awhile to get my heard around the styling but I bet its a blast with all the torque from the turbo. I'd be happy to come along to a track day if you ever do any in the south east and I can get away from work.
Edited by MR2 Jon on Thursday 6th May 22:48
MR2 Jon said:
Just interested to know what route people would take to build a kitcar capable of a reliable 500bhp/tonne without spending Atom or R500 money?
Tuscan challange chassis. Small block chevy stroker 6.3 with lots of goodies.
Oh wait, you said 'reliable'.......and not for Atom/R500 money.
Ignore that suggestion
It's neither easy or cheap....but it's fun when it runs.
I run a Lola T70 recreation just under 850kg with fluids minus driver @ 500bhp, I think you should take torque into account as well with @520lbs from the chevy the kick in the back feels good and makes it easier to drive!! As the engine builder said BHP sells engines torque wins races
MR2 Jon said:
@qdos wow your car looks stunning.. I think it'd take me awhile to get my heard around the styling but I bet its a blast with all the torque from the turbo. I'd be happy to come along to a track day if you ever do any in the south east and I can get away from work.
Just noticed you're in Bournemouth Jon, The car was in Southbourne most of last summer. Happy to have you come along to any trackday I'm at with the Deronda. We've got one at Abingdon coming up soon. The workshops recently moved to just North of OxfordI have to agree the photo above isn't the best angle but it was one showing the power and weight clearly displayed. Though any car isn't at it's best when looked at from the front of the bonnet.
Bit better angle shown in the pic below.
Edited by qdos on Friday 7th May 08:33
rabidant said:
I run a Lola T70 recreation just under 850kg with fluids minus driver @ 500bhp, I think you should take torque into account as well with @520lbs from the chevy the kick in the back feels good and makes it easier to drive!! As the engine builder said BHP sells engines torque wins races
i was going to sugest something closer to the 1000kg mark, amybe an ultima GTR, and a nice V8. the Chevy LS engines are cheap and offer BIg power right off the crate.Gassing Station | Kit Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff