Discussion
Hi,
I am looking to buy a kit car hopefully a BEC fury however I wanted to know if there are any bike engines that are more suitable than others. I want a engine that will give me decent power (the more, the better) but still be usable and not too expensive i.e Hayabusa. It would be my first BEC so I would like something that is fairly easy to use, I had a ride in a R1 engined fury at the weekend and really liked how it drove but I have heard the blade engines are little more clunky how true is this? How difficult is it to swap bike engines such as Fireblade to R1.
Also how difficult is it to change a CEC to a BEC, is this something that is difficult and expensive or with decent mechanical knowledge can it be done fairly cheaply once the price of the engine and all the ancillaries have been taken into account. What are the less obvious parts that would be needed to do this? Is it better to just get a car with the type of engine you would like most first, as I thought I could get a CEC then upgrade to a high power bike engine in time once the budget allows.
Finally are there any extras that are more important when looking at BEC?
Sorry about all the questions but any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
I am looking to buy a kit car hopefully a BEC fury however I wanted to know if there are any bike engines that are more suitable than others. I want a engine that will give me decent power (the more, the better) but still be usable and not too expensive i.e Hayabusa. It would be my first BEC so I would like something that is fairly easy to use, I had a ride in a R1 engined fury at the weekend and really liked how it drove but I have heard the blade engines are little more clunky how true is this? How difficult is it to swap bike engines such as Fireblade to R1.
Also how difficult is it to change a CEC to a BEC, is this something that is difficult and expensive or with decent mechanical knowledge can it be done fairly cheaply once the price of the engine and all the ancillaries have been taken into account. What are the less obvious parts that would be needed to do this? Is it better to just get a car with the type of engine you would like most first, as I thought I could get a CEC then upgrade to a high power bike engine in time once the budget allows.
Finally are there any extras that are more important when looking at BEC?
Sorry about all the questions but any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Andy-G said:
Thanks for your replies is there a preference between a Fireblade engine and a R1 also how does the KZ9 compare and what sort of power would you expect to get from standard fireblade and R1 engines.
Wikipedia will be abloe to give you the power outputs, ebay will tell you the relative values of the different engines.singlecoil said:
Do not buy a CEC and convert it, that would be 'not very sensible'.
Though plenty of people have - particularly in the early days before manufacturers started offering kits tailored to bike engines from the outset.Several build diaries and lots of useful information here.
R1 Fury said:
My preference would be injected rather than carbs. The 2002/3 R1 (engine code 5PW) is what I've got in my Fury. Popular BEC engine, sensible money, 160hp and sounds great.
Ian
If you say so, my carb R1 runs 175bhp though with a wet weight of 460kg.Ian
To the OP, get yourself to Llandow on Saturday and I'll take you out in mine if you want.
I think the fuel injected R1 engines (2002 onwards) are easier to set up and get through an MOT but, I stand to be corrected. You can simply use a Power Commander to control mapping. I've got the 5PW 2002/03 engine in my R1 Fury and with a tuned 4-2-1 manifold you will get more power and torque from what I've seen.
R1 engine is an easy route to take as all it needs is a sump baffle and a slight over fill of oil. Seems very reliable and is remarkably light too. I weighed engine and gearbox at 65.5Kg before installing. Many uprate the clutch spings too.
Richard Miles did a comparison on his web site on the various engines:
http://www.btinternet.com/~richard.d.miles/
A lot of R1 engine info on my web site too:
http://www.robcollingridge.com/kitcar/design/engin...
Rob
R1 engine is an easy route to take as all it needs is a sump baffle and a slight over fill of oil. Seems very reliable and is remarkably light too. I weighed engine and gearbox at 65.5Kg before installing. Many uprate the clutch spings too.
Richard Miles did a comparison on his web site on the various engines:
http://www.btinternet.com/~richard.d.miles/
A lot of R1 engine info on my web site too:
http://www.robcollingridge.com/kitcar/design/engin...
Rob
Thanks for your replies, I would love to come down to Llandow and I have been looking into it for a few weeks but I live on the Wirral and unfortunately, I don't know if I would be able to make it all the way down this weekend, but thanks for the offer it would be a great day out if I could make it. Are there many tracks days such as this or is it more of a one off?
Rob I have been looking at your website a lot over the past few weeks and found it incredibly useful so I really appreciate your comments but why is its easier to get an injected engine get through an MOT and what makes is it that carb engines harder? Also are bike BEC in general harder to get through MOTs? Also how hard/expensive are they to get through SVA.
Also what exactly is a Power commander?
On a slightly different subject would a civic Type R engine fit in a fury as a friend has offered me one fairly cheaply and I know of a fury rolling chassis available. I thought the idea of a high revving vtec might go quite well in a kit car, although I'm still not sure I wouldn't be disappointed that it wasn't as raw as a BEC.
Rob I have been looking at your website a lot over the past few weeks and found it incredibly useful so I really appreciate your comments but why is its easier to get an injected engine get through an MOT and what makes is it that carb engines harder? Also are bike BEC in general harder to get through MOTs? Also how hard/expensive are they to get through SVA.
Also what exactly is a Power commander?
On a slightly different subject would a civic Type R engine fit in a fury as a friend has offered me one fairly cheaply and I know of a fury rolling chassis available. I thought the idea of a high revving vtec might go quite well in a kit car, although I'm still not sure I wouldn't be disappointed that it wasn't as raw as a BEC.
I think the R1 is a good choice - good power, cheap and easy to get hold of (popular bike that lots of people fall off). Its very popular in BECs so it is well tested in that environment.
The Hayabusa is the most expensive option (£5000?), not many of the bikes around, so engines go for big money. With a lot of modern 1000cc bikes producing similar power these days there isn't much point.
I've got an 1995 893cc Fireblade engine in my Westie, very popular and tough engines used in loads of BECs and proven in race series. But they are getting quite old now, and supply of good engines is drying up. Lots of people rebuilding and keeping the old ones going though. Pretty low on power compared to other engines too - only 120bhp standard, or around 130 with carbs properly tuned for the exhaust, intake and dynojet kit.
MOT is all down to how the car was registered. If it was SVAed with a pre 1995 engine then it gets the easier non-cat emmisions test. This is why the old 893 Fireblade engine is so popular. Q-Reg cars are even easier with just visible smoke test. Also if the car has been converted from say a Pinto to a brand new bike engine, it would still only have to pass the Pinto emissions... I think.
If the car has to do the CAT test then you'll probably need a modern fuel injected bike engine to pass it.
Problem I had with mine was the MOT garage didn't know the rules, VOSA told them look on the V5, and my V5 is blank in the emissions section. Took a combination of the build manual and a phone call to Westfield to get it through the MOT.
Power Commander is like a programmable ECU thingy, popular for extracting a bit more power from fuel injected bikes.
Finally... I saw a 7 kit with a Honda S2000 engine in it which looked very tasty. Main problem with the Civic will be making sure there is a RWD gear box for it. And also possible complications with certain Honda Engines spinning the wrong way? I'm not that adventurous so I'd stick with stuff that's tried and tested by other people.
The Hayabusa is the most expensive option (£5000?), not many of the bikes around, so engines go for big money. With a lot of modern 1000cc bikes producing similar power these days there isn't much point.
I've got an 1995 893cc Fireblade engine in my Westie, very popular and tough engines used in loads of BECs and proven in race series. But they are getting quite old now, and supply of good engines is drying up. Lots of people rebuilding and keeping the old ones going though. Pretty low on power compared to other engines too - only 120bhp standard, or around 130 with carbs properly tuned for the exhaust, intake and dynojet kit.
MOT is all down to how the car was registered. If it was SVAed with a pre 1995 engine then it gets the easier non-cat emmisions test. This is why the old 893 Fireblade engine is so popular. Q-Reg cars are even easier with just visible smoke test. Also if the car has been converted from say a Pinto to a brand new bike engine, it would still only have to pass the Pinto emissions... I think.
If the car has to do the CAT test then you'll probably need a modern fuel injected bike engine to pass it.
Problem I had with mine was the MOT garage didn't know the rules, VOSA told them look on the V5, and my V5 is blank in the emissions section. Took a combination of the build manual and a phone call to Westfield to get it through the MOT.
Power Commander is like a programmable ECU thingy, popular for extracting a bit more power from fuel injected bikes.
Finally... I saw a 7 kit with a Honda S2000 engine in it which looked very tasty. Main problem with the Civic will be making sure there is a RWD gear box for it. And also possible complications with certain Honda Engines spinning the wrong way? I'm not that adventurous so I'd stick with stuff that's tried and tested by other people.
Edited by mr_fibuli on Thursday 13th May 18:39
Andy-G said:
On a slightly different subject would a civic Type R engine fit in a fury as a friend has offered me one fairly cheaply and I know of a fury rolling chassis available. I thought the idea of a high revving vtec might go quite well in a kit car, although I'm still not sure I wouldn't be disappointed that it wasn't as raw as a BEC.
Would work well in a mid/rear engine set up, akin to the MEV (Rocket/Atomic7) or SDR V-Storm. Getting a RWD gearbox to fit may be tricky (as mentioned above).Andy-G said:
Rob I have been looking at your website a lot over the past few weeks and found it incredibly useful so I really appreciate your comments but why is its easier to get an injected engine get through an MOT and what makes is it that carb engines harder? Also are bike BEC in general harder to get through MOTs? Also how hard/expensive are they to get through SVA.
Also what exactly is a Power commander?
The key decision to make with a BEC is the age of the engine. This decides which emissions test it has to pass at SVA/IVA and MOT time. My 2003 R1 engine has to pass a normal car emissions test so that means having a catalyst and hitting the right lambda at 1500rpm and fast idle (3000rpm). I've just put my fisher Fury R1 through its first MOT and it was harder than I thought.Also what exactly is a Power commander?
With the carbed and injected R1 engine, you remove the air-injection system (AIS) which is used on the bike to reduce emissions. On a BEC install it is simply blocked off. This means you have no feedback path to control lambda (fuel/air ratio). The power commander allows you to tweak the ignition and fuel rates for a given engine speed and throttle position. It is a 'piggy back' processor that sits in the loom between the ECU and the engine and is programmed by using a computer and a USB cable.
On a carbed R1 engine you simply have to balance the carbs I think (never done this myself) and it is a skilled job and quite tricky. With the FI engine you just tweak the map whilst connected to an exahust gas analyser. It isn't enough to simply run the engine lean and the lambda has to be within a tight range of values.
BECs are harder to get through SVA, IVA and MOT because they are generally modern engines but designed to pass motorcycle tests which are not as strict as modern car engine tests. They are also more highly tuned and the bike installation is often different to the car installation (no AIS in my case).
In many respects getting the car through the SVA was easier than the first MOT for me. Maybe I was just lucky with my SVA. It isn't expensive as such but I did get a new exhaust made up for my MOT test. I also paid for some time at a local tuning shop to use their exhaust gas analyser whilst I set up my map.
I can see the appeal of a car engined kitcar and both my brother's have them but the BEC is raw, loud and just more fun. It's not something I could live with every day but for pure fun driving it is hard to beat. Car engines just don't sound this good ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZj8advazpk :-)
I'm not sure the interpretation of the Q reg MOT emissions rules are correct in all cases. I've got a Q reg Sylva that passed SVA in 2006, the V5 has the emissions levels on it and that is what it is tested to at MOT time. These are the same levels it had to make for the SVA based on engine age.
Andy-G said:
Thanks for your replies, I would love to come down to Llandow and I have been looking into it for a few weeks but I live on the Wirral and unfortunately, I don't know if I would be able to make it all the way down this weekend, but thanks for the offer it would be a great day out if I could make it. Are there many tracks days such as this or is it more of a one off?
Rob I have been looking at your website a lot over the past few weeks and found it incredibly useful so I really appreciate your comments but why is its easier to get an injected engine get through an MOT and what makes is it that carb engines harder? Also are bike BEC in general harder to get through MOTs? Also how hard/expensive are they to get through SVA.
Also what exactly is a Power commander?
On a slightly different subject would a civic Type R engine fit in a fury as a friend has offered me one fairly cheaply and I know of a fury rolling chassis available. I thought the idea of a high revving vtec might go quite well in a kit car, although I'm still not sure I wouldn't be disappointed that it wasn't as raw as a BEC.
Hi Andy,Rob I have been looking at your website a lot over the past few weeks and found it incredibly useful so I really appreciate your comments but why is its easier to get an injected engine get through an MOT and what makes is it that carb engines harder? Also are bike BEC in general harder to get through MOTs? Also how hard/expensive are they to get through SVA.
Also what exactly is a Power commander?
On a slightly different subject would a civic Type R engine fit in a fury as a friend has offered me one fairly cheaply and I know of a fury rolling chassis available. I thought the idea of a high revving vtec might go quite well in a kit car, although I'm still not sure I wouldn't be disappointed that it wasn't as raw as a BEC.
I live just outside Liverpool (Kirkby) if you fancy having a nosey round my car, or another passenger ride. I built my car, (with a lot of help from Rob's website!) so happy to show you round it.
Cheers, Ian
Hi Ian,
Thanks for the offer I would like to look around your car if possible as the more cars i can see the better when I come to buy my own, and a passenger ride would always be fun.
If you just pm me a suitable date and time.
The only thing putting me off a BEC is the complexiteies of installing and setting them up, I know a bit about car engines and have a few mechanic friends but I don't really know much about bike engines especially in kit cars. Are there many specialists out there who can set one up for you so that it is running sweetly?
Thanks for the offer I would like to look around your car if possible as the more cars i can see the better when I come to buy my own, and a passenger ride would always be fun.
If you just pm me a suitable date and time.
The only thing putting me off a BEC is the complexiteies of installing and setting them up, I know a bit about car engines and have a few mechanic friends but I don't really know much about bike engines especially in kit cars. Are there many specialists out there who can set one up for you so that it is running sweetly?
Andy-G said:
Hi Ian,
The only thing putting me off a BEC is the complexiteies of installing and setting them up, I know a bit about car engines and have a few mechanic friends but I don't really know much about bike engines especially in kit cars. Are there many specialists out there who can set one up for you so that it is running sweetly?
Don't let that put you off. When I started my Fury build I knew nothing about cars or motorbikes. The engine is essentially a black box with wiring loom, ECU, etc. I still know little about it! I just wired it up as it was installed in the bike and removed bits that made no sense on a car. I fitted sump baffle, race clutch and sprocket adaptor. Other than that I've left it alone. Plumbed it in as per the bike install too using an R1 radiator.The only thing putting me off a BEC is the complexiteies of installing and setting them up, I know a bit about car engines and have a few mechanic friends but I don't really know much about bike engines especially in kit cars. Are there many specialists out there who can set one up for you so that it is running sweetly?
I change the oil and filter once a year (~2000 miles) and follow the servicing guide in the manual. I ran a zero map on the power commander for the first year but was given a map from a fellow owner which makes the engine run smoother, provides more torque and it pops less on the over-run.
Rob
Gassing Station | Kit Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff