Kit car geometry/corner weighting service?
Discussion
I’m thinking about investing in some extra equipment for the workshop, things that will be used in making sure that the kit cars I see are correctly set up as far as possible. I could also offer to do the same for existing kit cars, and wonder if anybody would like to offer any thoughts about that, such as what equipment to get, what services to offer, that sort of thing.
This would be for kit cars only, I don’t want to get involved with any other sort of car.
What I have in mind so far is a 4 wheel laser alignment system, a set of corner weight scales, a spring tester (for checking the rate), and a camber/caster gauge. I would construct a flat and level ‘table’ a couple of feet off the ground for doing the cars on (saves bending down so much).
So what does the committee think?
This would be for kit cars only, I don’t want to get involved with any other sort of car.
What I have in mind so far is a 4 wheel laser alignment system, a set of corner weight scales, a spring tester (for checking the rate), and a camber/caster gauge. I would construct a flat and level ‘table’ a couple of feet off the ground for doing the cars on (saves bending down so much).
So what does the committee think?
hmmm, great idea on paper but unless your an expert on all the kits geometry and differeing requirements for each you might end up only being able to offer a basic service which as Ferg says most people do as matter of cause and every local garage offer.
As an example my Noble requires toe out at the front... you wouldnt set it up like that unless you knew the cars exact requirements for it to handle well.
As an example my Noble requires toe out at the front... you wouldnt set it up like that unless you knew the cars exact requirements for it to handle well.
andygtt said:
hmmm, great idea on paper but unless your an expert on all the kits geometry and differeing requirements for each you might end up only being able to offer a basic service which as Ferg says most people do as matter of cause and every local garage offer.
As an example my Noble requires toe out at the front... you wouldnt set it up like that unless you knew the cars exact requirements for it to handle well.
I can see why you would be concerned, but it certainly wouldn't be my intention to do anything to someone's car without researching it thoroughly first. First step would be to ask the owner what they needed, if they didn't already know, then take further advice until the required information was forthcoming. In your example, for instance, the obvious source of information would be the owner's handbook, or the factory.As an example my Noble requires toe out at the front... you wouldnt set it up like that unless you knew the cars exact requirements for it to handle well.
Most kits (which the Noble isn't of course
) have manufacturer's recommended settings, I already have some of these and would seek to acquire the rest. None of my local garages do corner weighting (that I know of), and I haven't seen too many spring testers around either. However many normal garages are reluctant to work on kit cars and, considering some of the cars I've seen, I don't blame them. I, on the other hand, don't work on anything else, so that might attract some owners who were looking for a local specialist.
oh feck said:
What geo' equiptment have you looked at?
Do you mean which actual makes and models of the stuff I listed above (mostly Intercomp)? Or do you mean how much is it likely to cost (I'm reckoning on around £5K).oh feck said:
I personally do not think it would be viable due to the outlay for the equipment (assuming you are planning on getting a decent bit of kit), especially if you are only going to use it on kits.
Do you mean that you don't think I would be using the equipment (and charging for it) often enough to justify its cost?I did this for a fair bit, as a sideline/profitable hobby (albeit on competition cars as well as kits).
I never made enough from it to make a living from it on its own and I had no desire to get involved in other aspects of the car business, but as an addition to your existing business, I'd say it would be a bloody good idea, provided you are willing to put a bit of time into learning the handling diagnostic troubleshooting/cause & effect side of things.
I never made enough from it to make a living from it on its own and I had no desire to get involved in other aspects of the car business, but as an addition to your existing business, I'd say it would be a bloody good idea, provided you are willing to put a bit of time into learning the handling diagnostic troubleshooting/cause & effect side of things.
The only price I've seen published so far is £125, but I would naturally be interested to get any anecdotal information on average prices.
As far as addressing specific handling issues, I will be doing all I can to learn more about these, though most of the cars I am seeing at the moment (hopefully things will improve) have really quite basic problems to address such as gross misalignment of front and rear wheels, camber adjusted by eye, incorrect length or rate of springs with the pans near the top of their threads just to stop the car scraping on the ground etc.
As far as addressing specific handling issues, I will be doing all I can to learn more about these, though most of the cars I am seeing at the moment (hopefully things will improve) have really quite basic problems to address such as gross misalignment of front and rear wheels, camber adjusted by eye, incorrect length or rate of springs with the pans near the top of their threads just to stop the car scraping on the ground etc.
I have just bought a super-duper string alignment system, and a camber gauge which has come to £700. I help friends out with their cars, but if I was doing it frequently to make a bit of money, I would only need to add corner weight scales (around £1k), and some turn plates. I'm sure I would get my money back pretty quickly, and so would anyone else who was able to understand each chassis a bit and recommend the respective settings.
At this point you are able to offer a good base setting for each of your customers. I'm sure in no time you would get to know the quirks of each of the kit cars, and have enough information to know how to get around them (in full or part).
Also, I would look at a string system instead of a laser system for your alignment. It will be more accurate, and cheaper to buy too. It may take a little longer to use, but ultimately, customers are paying for this time.
At this point you are able to offer a good base setting for each of your customers. I'm sure in no time you would get to know the quirks of each of the kit cars, and have enough information to know how to get around them (in full or part).
Also, I would look at a string system instead of a laser system for your alignment. It will be more accurate, and cheaper to buy too. It may take a little longer to use, but ultimately, customers are paying for this time.
singlecoil said:
LaurenceFrost said:
I have just bought a super-duper string alignment system,
Do you have a link for that, sounds interestinghttp://www.exe-tc.co.uk/product_images/2010-Chassi...
Pictures are terrible, but the product is fantastic. As long as you can measure with a ruler, the results are deadly accurate.
LaurenceFrost said:
singlecoil said:
LaurenceFrost said:
I have just bought a super-duper string alignment system,
Do you have a link for that, sounds interestinghttp://www.exe-tc.co.uk/product_images/2010-Chassi...
Pictures are terrible, but the product is fantastic. As long as you can measure with a ruler, the results are deadly accurate.
If it is that then it's a very good and accurate system, but a bit slow to use
Milky Bar Kid said:
I know that Procomp offer/used to offer to do the corner weighting, spring checking and geo setting for £200. That may well have changed though. And It was as a sideline, I think, to making their cars so it does sound like something best attached to an existing business.
Yes, the spring checking would need a higher price due to the time required to take the springs off.singlecoil said:
oh feck said:
What geo' equiptment have you looked at?
Do you mean which actual makes and models of the stuff I listed above (mostly Intercomp)? Or do you mean how much is it likely to cost (I'm reckoning on around £5K).oh feck said:
I personally do not think it would be viable due to the outlay for the equipment (assuming you are planning on getting a decent bit of kit), especially if you are only going to use it on kits.
Do you mean that you don't think I would be using the equipment (and charging for it) often enough to justify its cost?I would get the best kit you can and also try and get more than just kits to use it on, maybe try to specialise in sports cars aswel as i dont think you will have the numbers just doing kits as its the sort of thing people like to do themself, take it to a tried and tested company and also its not something people do often on a car that doesnt see many miles.
Price wise £100-£120 are the figures that i know of for a full toe, camber, castor, with a full print out and as long as it isnt seized solid can be done in 40 - 60 mins once you have done a few.
oh feck said:
i have used a few different makes of the alignment equipment, and can tell you that the cheaper - middle of the price range ones are not brilliant and a pain to use.
Which makes would you recommendoh feck said:
Price wise £100-£120 are the figures that i know of for a full toe, camber, castor, with a full print out and as long as it isnt seized solid can be done in 40 - 60 mins once you have done a few.
Would that include the corner weighting?The model i would recommend is the Pro-Align DSP 500 series.
It has features that the cheaper alternatives don't include such as;
A level head system, others allow you to work with the heads on the piss.
Castor swing, others don't take castor into consideration.
It takes the run out of the wheel/hub into consideration.
Some of the cheaper alternatives do not take the thrust line into consideration! this does.
And then there are lots of little useful features like showing you the track for both axles, wheel base for both axles etc all useful tools especially for a new build car or damaged car.
Don't get me wrong you can get good results from a ball of string, ruler and a spirit level. But it is so much easier with a decent bit of kit, and it lets you go further into the whole process.
Lets face it what would a punter be most impressed with, an afternoon spent with the string etc or a hour or so on the machine where you can show them the figures, explain what they mean and how they affect each other. I know which i would be more likely to tell others about.
That figure didn't include corner weighting.
By the way i am in no way connected with the company
It has features that the cheaper alternatives don't include such as;
A level head system, others allow you to work with the heads on the piss.
Castor swing, others don't take castor into consideration.
It takes the run out of the wheel/hub into consideration.
Some of the cheaper alternatives do not take the thrust line into consideration! this does.
And then there are lots of little useful features like showing you the track for both axles, wheel base for both axles etc all useful tools especially for a new build car or damaged car.
Don't get me wrong you can get good results from a ball of string, ruler and a spirit level. But it is so much easier with a decent bit of kit, and it lets you go further into the whole process.
Lets face it what would a punter be most impressed with, an afternoon spent with the string etc or a hour or so on the machine where you can show them the figures, explain what they mean and how they affect each other. I know which i would be more likely to tell others about.
That figure didn't include corner weighting.
By the way i am in no way connected with the company
Hi
As a guide the price we charge for a full setup Inc full geo setup / corner weights. Dampers removed springs tested for poundage. And all four dampers Dyno tested and balanced / matched into pairs is still £200. Corner weighting on it's own is £20-£30 depending on time taken.
Great care must be taken in choosing alignment equipment and laser systems. Simply buying a laser setup is useless if it has a tolerance of 2mm. You need to be measuring to an accuracy of around 3-4 minutes if it is to be of any use.
Cheers Matt
As a guide the price we charge for a full setup Inc full geo setup / corner weights. Dampers removed springs tested for poundage. And all four dampers Dyno tested and balanced / matched into pairs is still £200. Corner weighting on it's own is £20-£30 depending on time taken.
Great care must be taken in choosing alignment equipment and laser systems. Simply buying a laser setup is useless if it has a tolerance of 2mm. You need to be measuring to an accuracy of around 3-4 minutes if it is to be of any use.
Cheers Matt
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