track day engine for a Striker

[Gulf LS3]

Hi

Ive just aquired a little Sylva Striker and want to make it into a nice trackday car....

Its currently fitted with a 1300cc crossflow which im going to remove, im going to remove the screen, heater and any other lardy bits like carpets, dials etc etc but im not sure which way to go with the engine. Im fine with V8's but know very little about bike engines. Is the live axle a problem if so i could go with a Zetec or something?
I have a little low mileage Busa in my workshop but ive heard they need to be drysumped and im worried the costs may get silly?? Where is the best place to get prices on dry sump kits and engine cradles??

Would i be better selling the Busa and running a R1 as i understand they do not need to be drysumped (but i thought it would be best to drysump anything thats going to be thrashed round a track)

Thanks for your help

Kyle

[Sam_68]

Gulf LS3 said:

Is the live axle a problem...

If you're looking at a bike engine, then it's potentially a problem, yes.

You'll need to check your gearing (both with your current axle ratio and the tallest available, which is 3.54:1 for the English axle), but don't be surprised to find you'll be bouncing off the rev limiter at 110 mph at stupid high revs.

Gulf LS3 said:

if so i could go with a Zetec or something?

That would probably be more sensible, with a live axle car, both in terms of gearing and the cost:complexity:end value of the conversion.

[luggit]

I have a Sylva Striker which I use in hillclimbs and sprints which is fitted with a 1.6 Rover K Series engine on throttle bodies and is great fun to drive on track. I know of other cars with the 1.8 version K Series fitted and they are also fast track cars. The K Series is reliable and being aluminium very light so might be worth your consideration.

[Gulf LS3]

Sam_68 said:

Gulf LS3 said:

Is the live axle a problem...

If you're looking at a bike engine, then it's potentially a problem, yes.

You'll need to check your gearing (both with your current axle ratio and the tallest available, which is 3.54:1 for the English axle), but don't be surprised to find you'll be bouncing off the rev limiter at 110 mph at stupid high revs.

Gulf LS3 said:

if so i could go with a Zetec or something?

That would probably be more sensible, with a live axle car, both in terms of gearing and the cost:complexity:end value of the conversion.

thanks Sam


the best ratio i can find on the indi rear setup is 3.62, so if i keep the live axle with a 3.54 that will be better? I could run some 14 inch tyres to help with gearing as well. Ive been in a Westie with a supercharged Busa and that runs through the cossie limited slip diff(3.62 i think) and that goes well into 3 figures.

[Tim.C]

A 3.54 live axle works well with some bike motors including the 893 or 919 Fireblade engine or a 2004-06 R1 engine. Both of these engines appear in the 750MC RGB championship in live axle Sylva-derived cars. It is not necessary to dry sump either of these engines. Baffled sumps will suffice in both cases, although the R1 does need a modification to the breather system to stop it from coughing-up all its oil. This is a relatively straight-forward and very cheap DIY mod.

If its primarily a track car you want, I wouldn't look beyond a bike engine. If the car will be used primarily on the road then I'd go with a Zetec, 4age or similar.

[Gulf LS3]

thanks Tim

would you sell the Busa and go with the R1 then? to be honest i think i will struggle to get enough out of the Busa to feel the difference between it and the R1? The extra torque would be nice but the Striker only weighs 500kg with the crossflow so it should be a lot lighter with a bike engine

[Chris71]

luggit said:

The K Series is reliable and being aluminium very light so might be worth your consideration.

My first reaction was a bike engine, but car-wise I'd second the idea of a K-Series.

I've got a mildly breathed on fuel injected 1.6 K in 140bhp trim in my Caterham and it's a joy - tractable (it'll happily pick up from 30mph in 5th), responsive, very revvy and nice linear power band. At 508kg all-in the Caterham is probably a similar weight to an average Striker I'd guess so it's a relevant comparison.

FWIW It's behaved faultlessly for the past year and I think the head gasket woes seem to be a)exagerated and b)more relevant to the long cooling circuit on the Elise or MGF that has far more thermal inertia than the close-coupled engine and rad on a Seven-style car.

Failing that, Toyota 4AGE?

[Tim.C]

Honestly, yes - sale of the 'busa should pay for the majority of the rest of the conversion. The 'busa will be ok-ish with a 3.54 ratio but its far from ideal.

The busa is also probably 15-20kgs heavier itself than the R1, probably more one you add a dry sump system. Have a look at http://www.danstuff.info/furyracer.html which will give you an idea of what a 2004-06 R1 setup looks like. Don't be put-off by the site though - Dan's a serial builder and some of what he does to his car isn't strictly necessary.

This is also worth a look: http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid.... It outlines the majority of tasks amd parts needed to complete a conversion. I very nearly did the same as you with my old Striker and still think its a decent way to have lots of fun relatively cheaply!

Incidentally, this engine on eBay is 'known to me' i.e. its a friend's: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2005-Yamaha-R1-Engine-5VY-Le...
The only problem is you'd need to source a loom and ECU. Still worth a look though as the prep to go into a car is all done for you.

[Sam_68]

Gulf LS3 said:

...the best ratio i can find on the indi rear setup is 3.62, so if i keep the live axle with a 3.54 that will be better?

Obviously use the tallest diff ratio you can find. The 3.14 Freelander diff is a popular option, when you're not tied to a Ford differential/axle.

Bear in ming that even where you're calculating a speed 'well into 3 figures', that'll be at peak revs for a bike engine (so typically 12K rpm). So you could be comparing, say, 125mph at 12,000 rpm against typical car gearing (for example; my Sierra 5-speed+Crossflow Sylva) which would be running at pretty much half the revs at the same speed in top (it's geared for a theoretical 152mph at 7,800rpm in 5th)

Some people aren't bothered at all, but some of us find that the constant high revs that come with the ultra-short gearing drive just drive you nuts. I'd suggest that apart from calculating the peak speed, you should also calculate the mph/100rpm in top gear, and the revs needed at typical cruising speeds (assuming you're intending road use), and comparing these against the gearing for car engined alternatives, before you make your mind up.

[Furyblade_Lee]

A little leftfield option for you.... How about a Mazda MX5 engine and gearbox?? Don't laught, it's a reliable 120bhp basically for pennies, sweet, unbreakable superb gearbox and already for a RWD install ( check diff ratio read though ) BUT for about £2k secondhand or £3k new you can turbocharge (200bhp+) or supercharge (170-200 with linear throttle response) which is Caterham R400 horsepower for not a lot of money. I'd definately go that route over a lot of 4 pots.

[Tim.C]

Sam_68 said:

[Obviously use the tallest diff ratio you can find. The 3.14 Freelander diff is a popular option, when you're not tied to a Ford differential/axle.

Its a minor point, but the Freelander ratio is 3.21.

[pilbeam_mp62]

Hey Kyle,

Take a look at the red-top Vauxhall 2-litre engine. A genuine GM motor with a cylinder head designed by Cosworth - a lot of the hillclimb Caterhams and Westfields use these (I had a hillclimb Westfield with about 210 hp on twin Webers, amd I had a hillclimb Pilbeam with a Swindon Racing Engines motor - 295hp on injection - there is plenty of tuneability)

You can uprate the rod-bolts with ARP items, if you want to go much over 200 hp - you can fit twin 45DCOES or go injection. Check out www.qedmotorsport.co.uk or
www.sbdev.co.uk for loads of Vauxhall tuning info.

Regards

[Sam_68]

Tim.C said:

Sam_68 said:

[Obviously use the tallest diff ratio you can find. The 3.14 Freelander diff is a popular option, when you're not tied to a Ford differential/axle.

Its a minor point, but the Freelander ratio is 3.21.

Yes, apologies - getting my diff ratios mixed up!

3.14 is a (rare) Ford Sierra ratio.

[Stubby Pete]

I run a 3.54:1 English rear axle with a 2001 R1 engine and I can assure that 120mph top end (with 185/60/13 tyres) is not enough for most track driving. I get close to topping out at Llandow (where I will be hooning again this weekend yipee) and it will top out on every other track I've been on. For a quick blat around the road it's great fun though.

If you want to reconfigure the rear end, the freelander diff is quite popular I would also mention that BMW E36 use a 2.9:1 ratio in one of the derivitives but I can't remember which one. That might be worth considering.

[Tim.C]

Stubby Pete said:

I run a 3.54:1 English rear axle with a 2001 R1 engine and I can assure that 120mph top end (with 185/60/13 tyres) is not enough for most track driving. I get close to topping out at Llandow (where I will be hooning again this weekend yipee) and it will top out on every other track I've been on. For a quick blat around the road it's great fun though.

If you want to reconfigure the rear end, the freelander diff is quite popular I would also mention that BMW E36 use a 2.9:1 ratio in one of the derivitives but I can't remember which one. That might be worth considering.

Yup - true. 205 series tyres would give you another 5mph though. I recommended the later engine as both the gearing and rev limit are different. If I remember right, a 2004-2006 R1 on 185/60s is geared for 134 amd om the 205/60s it's geared for just under 140mph (all with a 3.54 English Diff)!

[Gulf LS3]

Furyblade_Lee said:

A little leftfield option for you.... How about a Mazda MX5 engine and gearbox?? Don't laught, it's a reliable 120bhp basically for pennies, sweet, unbreakable superb gearbox and already for a RWD install ( check diff ratio read though ) BUT for about £2k secondhand or £3k new you can turbocharge (200bhp+) or supercharge (170-200 with linear throttle response) which is Caterham R400 horsepower for not a lot of money. I'd definately go that route over a lot of 4 pots.

thanks Lee...

ive taken your advice, im going to fit a MX5 engine and box. Im sure a Rotrex will come into the equation somewhere ;-)

is quaife the only option on the live axle for a LSD? Im not sure what size tyres to run for optimum track pace?

[Stubby Pete]

Gulf LS3 said:

[
...I've taken your advice, im going to fit a MX5 engine and box. Im sure a Rotrex will come into the equation somewhere ;-)

is quaife the only option on the live axle for a LSD? Im not sure what size tyres to run for optimum track pace?

If you can find an old Mini Cooper S in a scrap yard the supercharher from the eary models can be used too (as seen on a Mazda MX5 at the Cheddar Gorge meet a few months back).

As far as the LSD option goes before spending money, I'd try it without first. You may find that it's good enough without one. I run mine without, keep looking out for a cheap second hand one but use my right foot to control the slip for now.

[Liquid Knight]

BMW 318iS bullet proff engine with bolt on throttle body, turbo and supercharger conversions available if you get bored of the factory 130+bhp.

[Stubby Pete]

Liquid Knight said:

BMW 318iS bullet proff engine with bolt on throttle body, turbo and supercharger conversions available if you get bored of the factory 130+bhp.

If you're going to go for a BMW surely you want the sound of 6 cylinders?

[Furyblade_Lee]

Good choice! If you to the MX5 nutz forum there is a whole raft on info on turbo and supercharging the MX5 engine (as well as just about all you will ever need to know about MX5s) there is a link to the Mini Cooper S supercharger DIY conversion, but be aware you need a very specific version supercharger. He also has the plans to make all brackets and pulleys ect. But quite often whole installations come up for sale for around £1,000, both turbo and super. I'd personally go for the supercharge option as gives linear powere and when you are cruising there is a vacum valve which gives you great fuel economy. I'd be interested in your conversion and will like to see it someday. Regarding LSD's if going for MX5 diff conversion get one as basically they are free!! 1.8 is better than 1.6 LSD apparently, and drive shafts are stronger but my 1.6 was a hoot with the LSD and I never managed to break it!!

Edited by Furyblade_Lee on Wednesday 11th August 11:06