Professional build kit cars using donor components?
Discussion
I’m hoping to get a definitive answer about this. Recently on the Murtaya thread-
SteveIt's my understanding that a manufacturer can make a complete car using "parts from a vehicle previosuly registered in the UK".That's the way it would appear when you look at the description for class C but VOSA told me we could not do that but did not elaborate. I was inquiring about other things at the time so did not pursue it as I wanted his full attention on my query.
Will have to cover that in our next call.
SteveAnd in today’s Kit Car Magazine there is an article on kit car registration, written by the well respected Nigel Dean, that says-
“Kit cars can be built under two banners, ‘amateur’ or ‘extremely low volume’. The latter is for companies who build cars to sell… …. The extremely low volume route dictates the use of 100% new components. Period. No choices and no exceptions to this rule”
If all the above is true, and more to the point, the whole truth, then it clearly indicates that there is no way in which a manufacturer who develops a car, the very essence of which is that it uses donor components, can have it tested and registered for the road.
There are a couple of firms, and at least one individual, that post here that would fall foul of this, and as I hope soon to be able to offer my own kit, it will affect me too.
Anybody have any information that would help?
Steve_D said:
singlecoil said:
Steve_D said:
Ferg said:
......are 'turnkey' cars always new reg??.........
A turnkey car built by the manufacturer has to pass IVA under a 'low volume' category rather than 'Amateur Build' the rules for low volume only allow all new parts and more importantly compliance with the very latest emissions.Steve
Will have to cover that in our next call.
Steve
“Kit cars can be built under two banners, ‘amateur’ or ‘extremely low volume’. The latter is for companies who build cars to sell… …. The extremely low volume route dictates the use of 100% new components. Period. No choices and no exceptions to this rule”
If all the above is true, and more to the point, the whole truth, then it clearly indicates that there is no way in which a manufacturer who develops a car, the very essence of which is that it uses donor components, can have it tested and registered for the road.
There are a couple of firms, and at least one individual, that post here that would fall foul of this, and as I hope soon to be able to offer my own kit, it will affect me too.
Anybody have any information that would help?
John
I spoke to Steve Bardsley this week on exactly this subject, because both Kitcar & Complete Kitcar had put forward that same info that for low volume you had to build using new components. I suspected this was an error as I know Alan of AGM sportscars submitted one of his WLR's for IVA last year under the low volume test (it's about half the fee BTW!) & most of his car was on second hand components.
The information is most definitely wrong according to Steve, he told me that new components are relevant only with regard to registration & have no effect on which IVA test you take, reason I was asking was that I'm building the next Furore F1 demonstrator with a ZZR1400 engine & was concerned as to whether they view that as one component or 2 (you need 2 from a UK donor if submitting under the professionally built test) - the answer incidentally was they see it as one component (I wonder if that's the same answer from the DVLA for your one allowed reconditioned component for a new reg???). This would mean I couldn't submit as a professionaly built car as it wouldn't have 2 major components from one UK donor (despite everything but the engine & box coming from one donor), however, I can submit it far more cheaply under the low volume regs - How bizarre!
Regards Russ
I spoke to Steve Bardsley this week on exactly this subject, because both Kitcar & Complete Kitcar had put forward that same info that for low volume you had to build using new components. I suspected this was an error as I know Alan of AGM sportscars submitted one of his WLR's for IVA last year under the low volume test (it's about half the fee BTW!) & most of his car was on second hand components.
The information is most definitely wrong according to Steve, he told me that new components are relevant only with regard to registration & have no effect on which IVA test you take, reason I was asking was that I'm building the next Furore F1 demonstrator with a ZZR1400 engine & was concerned as to whether they view that as one component or 2 (you need 2 from a UK donor if submitting under the professionally built test) - the answer incidentally was they see it as one component (I wonder if that's the same answer from the DVLA for your one allowed reconditioned component for a new reg???). This would mean I couldn't submit as a professionaly built car as it wouldn't have 2 major components from one UK donor (despite everything but the engine & box coming from one donor), however, I can submit it far more cheaply under the low volume regs - How bizarre!
Regards Russ
Russ, I'm guessing that what has been said is true, of Class L, but they are missing out that there is a class C which allows the use of donor components as long as there are, as you point out, 2 major ones from the same donor.
I've emailed Paul Jepson, he should know if anybody does, I'll report back when I get a reply.
I've emailed Paul Jepson, he should know if anybody does, I'll report back when I get a reply.
John
I believe class L is the low volume, correct? In which case, no you do not have to use new components (unless you want a new reg.
For class C which I believe is the "professional builder" you must use at least 2 major components from a UK donor & a bike engine/box does NOT qualify, hence if a professional is building a bike engined car it cannot go under class C. So far as I'm concerned I can see no disadvantage to class L & it's half the cost - presumably because they are expecting to see a professionally built vehicle which will be relatively easy to test & they will expect to see more than one of them so there will be some sort of continuity. As I said the above info came from Steve Bardsley of VOSA ie direct from the horses mouth (not to call Steve a horse - he's a very helpful bloke!)
I believe class L is the low volume, correct? In which case, no you do not have to use new components (unless you want a new reg.
For class C which I believe is the "professional builder" you must use at least 2 major components from a UK donor & a bike engine/box does NOT qualify, hence if a professional is building a bike engined car it cannot go under class C. So far as I'm concerned I can see no disadvantage to class L & it's half the cost - presumably because they are expecting to see a professionally built vehicle which will be relatively easy to test & they will expect to see more than one of them so there will be some sort of continuity. As I said the above info came from Steve Bardsley of VOSA ie direct from the horses mouth (not to call Steve a horse - he's a very helpful bloke!)
Russ Bost said:
John
I believe class L is the low volume, correct? In which case, no you do not have to use new components (unless you want a new reg.
For class C which I believe is the "professional builder" you must use at least 2 major components from a UK donor & a bike engine/box does NOT qualify, hence if a professional is building a bike engined car it cannot go under class C. So far as I'm concerned I can see no disadvantage to class L & it's half the cost - presumably because they are expecting to see a professionally built vehicle which will be relatively easy to test & they will expect to see more than one of them so there will be some sort of continuity. As I said the above info came from Steve Bardsley of VOSA ie direct from the horses mouth (not to call Steve a horse - he's a very helpful bloke!)
Well, the Class L is the one that people seem pretty certain means all new components, but it would be great if it turns out that they are wrong. I think a big part of the problem is that even the people who adminster the rules are not necessarily correct in what they think (and say) to be the case.I believe class L is the low volume, correct? In which case, no you do not have to use new components (unless you want a new reg.
For class C which I believe is the "professional builder" you must use at least 2 major components from a UK donor & a bike engine/box does NOT qualify, hence if a professional is building a bike engined car it cannot go under class C. So far as I'm concerned I can see no disadvantage to class L & it's half the cost - presumably because they are expecting to see a professionally built vehicle which will be relatively easy to test & they will expect to see more than one of them so there will be some sort of continuity. As I said the above info came from Steve Bardsley of VOSA ie direct from the horses mouth (not to call Steve a horse - he's a very helpful bloke!)
I will await developments with interest.
Class C is worded as follows in the IVA manual.
Vehicles manufactured using parts of a registered vehicle.
A vehicle that
• is constructed or assembled by a person carrying on a business in the course of which motor vehicles are normally constructed or assembled
• is equipped with an engine which has previously been used as the engine of another vehicle which had been registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 or any earlier Act relating to the registration of mechanically propelled vehicles, and
• is equipped with one or more of the following components taken from the same vehicle as the engine
- chassis - body - suspension - transmission - steering assembly - an axle
From this I see no reason why I (as a business) can't build a kit for someone provided I use two donor parts.
It does however prevent me from using a bike engine as I cant use any other parts from the bike.
Steve
Vehicles manufactured using parts of a registered vehicle.
A vehicle that
• is constructed or assembled by a person carrying on a business in the course of which motor vehicles are normally constructed or assembled
• is equipped with an engine which has previously been used as the engine of another vehicle which had been registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 or any earlier Act relating to the registration of mechanically propelled vehicles, and
• is equipped with one or more of the following components taken from the same vehicle as the engine
- chassis - body - suspension - transmission - steering assembly - an axle
From this I see no reason why I (as a business) can't build a kit for someone provided I use two donor parts.
It does however prevent me from using a bike engine as I cant use any other parts from the bike.
Steve
Going back to Class L
I'm not convinced I have to use all new parts as I can't find any reference to that in the IVA Manual.
What is in there is that the engine will have to comply with the very latest emissions figures which means the engine has to have a cat, almost certainly EFI and will need to be new or be in very good condition.
The wording is in
Metered Emissions 02B
“Effective Date”
The “effective date” used to determine the criteria applicable is -
the date of manufacture of the vehicle, except for an “Amateur Built” vehicle, a “Vehicle manufactured using parts of a registered vehicle” or a “Rebuilt vehicle” it shall be 1 January immediately preceding the date of manufacture of the vehicle’s engine if this is earlier.
If the “effective date” cannot be determined, it must be assumed to be on or after 1 August 1997.
Steve
I'm not convinced I have to use all new parts as I can't find any reference to that in the IVA Manual.
What is in there is that the engine will have to comply with the very latest emissions figures which means the engine has to have a cat, almost certainly EFI and will need to be new or be in very good condition.
The wording is in
Metered Emissions 02B
“Effective Date”
The “effective date” used to determine the criteria applicable is -
the date of manufacture of the vehicle, except for an “Amateur Built” vehicle, a “Vehicle manufactured using parts of a registered vehicle” or a “Rebuilt vehicle” it shall be 1 January immediately preceding the date of manufacture of the vehicle’s engine if this is earlier.
If the “effective date” cannot be determined, it must be assumed to be on or after 1 August 1997.
Steve
My whole world is "Low Volume" (L)
You can use whatever age parts you like in the build.
But as Steve says you will have to pass a Cat test.
All my builds have to pass a Cat test on the day (More on this later)*.
With a pair of Cats in the side pipes and some careful carburettor tweeking i have so far not faild with Old Chevy and Ford engines, some of the blocks dating back to 1965 and many with over 400hp.
The carb tweeking is the only downside, on the upside though my tests only cost me £199
You can use whatever age parts you like in the build.
But as Steve says you will have to pass a Cat test.
All my builds have to pass a Cat test on the day (More on this later)*.
With a pair of Cats in the side pipes and some careful carburettor tweeking i have so far not faild with Old Chevy and Ford engines, some of the blocks dating back to 1965 and many with over 400hp.
The carb tweeking is the only downside, on the upside though my tests only cost me £199
- Now, on the day of the IVA test the car needs to pass a Cat test as the car is tested as "Low Volume" however....If the engine block is of a pre 1993 vintage then any subsequent testsd (ie. MOT) the car will only have to meet the basic sniff at tickover (3.5 CO and under 1200HCs. And this is the stricktest set of levels).
Haven't read all the thread, but on the All New front, the company building a Demo Car or Turn Key might have to buy New Old Stock Parts, as in stuff you could get from a Donner but to meet Regs they might say buy there parts direct form Ford or Vauxhall etc where as the Private builder could source them from a Scrap Yard....
Ultima still use Granada hubs and drive flanges, they get them made new at GKN and at a machine shop, but the builder could get them off a Old Granny...
Hope that helps...
Ultima still use Granada hubs and drive flanges, they get them made new at GKN and at a machine shop, but the builder could get them off a Old Granny...
Hope that helps...
Hi guys,
Our understanding at CKC is not the same as that apparently written by Nigel Dean. I've not had the opportunity to check this (which I probably should have!), but my understanding is that anyone building kit cars in a commercial capacity (either as a manufacturer or other business) can build and sell a car using either new components (new engine etc) or using components (the two major components mentioned in previous threads) from a UK registered donor car. As such, both manufacturers and other businesses can build a donor based car, where the engine is from that donor and meets the standards required of that donor. The car will receive an age related registration. This will make it difficult for certain types of kit car to be assembled by a business using second-hand components. For instance, it's tricky for a Cobra replica manufacturer to offer a turnkey car based on second-hand components where the Chevy engine has no relationship to the Jaguar donor components (hence more companies moving over to the LSV8 and offering brand new turnkey cars). Conversely, it would be possible for a company such as MEV (or any professional builder) to assemble one of its new Mazda MX5 based Exocets (and register it on age-related plate). For those that remember our Murtaya build a couple of years ago, this was why John Watson (as a professional builder) could build and register the car on an age-related plate using the Subaru as the single donor car.
Our understanding at CKC is not the same as that apparently written by Nigel Dean. I've not had the opportunity to check this (which I probably should have!), but my understanding is that anyone building kit cars in a commercial capacity (either as a manufacturer or other business) can build and sell a car using either new components (new engine etc) or using components (the two major components mentioned in previous threads) from a UK registered donor car. As such, both manufacturers and other businesses can build a donor based car, where the engine is from that donor and meets the standards required of that donor. The car will receive an age related registration. This will make it difficult for certain types of kit car to be assembled by a business using second-hand components. For instance, it's tricky for a Cobra replica manufacturer to offer a turnkey car based on second-hand components where the Chevy engine has no relationship to the Jaguar donor components (hence more companies moving over to the LSV8 and offering brand new turnkey cars). Conversely, it would be possible for a company such as MEV (or any professional builder) to assemble one of its new Mazda MX5 based Exocets (and register it on age-related plate). For those that remember our Murtaya build a couple of years ago, this was why John Watson (as a professional builder) could build and register the car on an age-related plate using the Subaru as the single donor car.
p1doc said:
clear as mud lol
martin
Hindsight is a marvellous thing, and in your case it indicates that if your car had been built from a single donor (maybe a crashed, recent car?) and modifications had been left until after the test, things would have been a lot more straightforward.martin
indeed if i knew back then what i know now i would have got standard engine ecu FMIC turbo injectors etc and likely passed iva first time adrenaline/scoobybits recommended ecu and engine mods saying better to do during build rather than after,several murts are in same situation due to modified engines etc recommended by adrenaline who are now gone with directors no longer contactable,it would have saved me a lot of money and time!
arden were able to pass emissions component on their demo car with standard ecu tmic and engine with no fiddling required!
i see the CKC car is still for sale and going back to arden for some door modifications i hear?
martin
arden were able to pass emissions component on their demo car with standard ecu tmic and engine with no fiddling required!
i see the CKC car is still for sale and going back to arden for some door modifications i hear?
martin
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