The 750mc definition of 'Front Engined'
Discussion
Does anyone have a copy of the wording/regs that cover the 750mc definition of front engined?
Myself and some friends/colleagues/fellow loons are in the early stages of planning to design and build our own RGB (most likely Class B).
I ask because section 5:14 of the rules states that min weight for 'Front Engined' cars is 530KG but min weight for 'Mid and Rear Engined' cars is 560KG but there is no actual definition in the regs (that we can find) that defines what is 'Front Engined'.
Many RGB's and BEC's have engines in front of the driver but far behind the front axle line which in my mind (and that of Japanese GT for instance) makes them 'Mid Engined' as the whole engine is between the two axle lines.
So what actually constitutes a 'Front Engined' car in RGB's? as we really want to save those 30KG.
Myself and some friends/colleagues/fellow loons are in the early stages of planning to design and build our own RGB (most likely Class B).
I ask because section 5:14 of the rules states that min weight for 'Front Engined' cars is 530KG but min weight for 'Mid and Rear Engined' cars is 560KG but there is no actual definition in the regs (that we can find) that defines what is 'Front Engined'.
Many RGB's and BEC's have engines in front of the driver but far behind the front axle line which in my mind (and that of Japanese GT for instance) makes them 'Mid Engined' as the whole engine is between the two axle lines.
So what actually constitutes a 'Front Engined' car in RGB's? as we really want to save those 30KG.
Until someone comes along who knows a proper answer, isn't it just down to where the engine is relative to the driver, so front engined = engine in front of the driver, even if the engine position is behind the front axle line?
An alternate guess would be most of the engine weight to be closer to the front axle line than the back one.
An alternate guess would be most of the engine weight to be closer to the front axle line than the back one.
I know Mike Field had a front engined Fury commissioned which had a fireblade lump in the passenger footwell. Rules dictated the cars must have 2 seats, but the only person who could actually ride in it were people with no legs as far as I could see! Or maybe "mini me" from Austin Powers. That was taking the rules to the extreme, but I think he got away with it for front engined.
I am no Columbo, but I rekon they would piss themselves if you submitted a car like that and claimed it to be "Mid Engined"!!!!!
MEV do a car with the R1 lump in the passenger space but it is strictly a 1 seater and RGB cars must be 2 seaters. Although saying that, for the last 5 years I think the "road" bit of "road going bike engined" has been relaxed alongcwith having to prove your car has ever been near a road. Or taxed. Insured. MOT'd. SVA / IVA'd. Which I think is a massive shame as it now has just become another championship for race cars. I think a requirement should be at any point a car should be able to drive on the highway if requested. Or they may as well be bikesports. But I digress, I don't thinkbyour cunning plan will work or be morally correct!!!
I am no Columbo
I am no Columbo, but I rekon they would piss themselves if you submitted a car like that and claimed it to be "Mid Engined"!!!!!
MEV do a car with the R1 lump in the passenger space but it is strictly a 1 seater and RGB cars must be 2 seaters. Although saying that, for the last 5 years I think the "road" bit of "road going bike engined" has been relaxed alongcwith having to prove your car has ever been near a road. Or taxed. Insured. MOT'd. SVA / IVA'd. Which I think is a massive shame as it now has just become another championship for race cars. I think a requirement should be at any point a car should be able to drive on the highway if requested. Or they may as well be bikesports. But I digress, I don't thinkbyour cunning plan will work or be morally correct!!!
I am no Columbo
I agree with Lee.
RGB isnt quite the same as when it was full of Phoenix, Fury, Striker and Westfields but everything moves on I suppose - the new class structures for 2011 look very good though.
Mike Fields car was as described by Lee, so I suppose the Mid/Rear engined car would be considered to be the engine either alongside or behind the driver. Al Massarella owned a very nice Fury Menace which from memory (I think) was deemed to be mid-engined. If you look at a Mallock - they are 'front engined' but the engine is almost by the drivers left knee. I dont think you could get more extreme than Mike Fields variant as the two-seat rule would become unachievable.
Josh (ex RGB in a Phoenix R1)
RGB isnt quite the same as when it was full of Phoenix, Fury, Striker and Westfields but everything moves on I suppose - the new class structures for 2011 look very good though.
Mike Fields car was as described by Lee, so I suppose the Mid/Rear engined car would be considered to be the engine either alongside or behind the driver. Al Massarella owned a very nice Fury Menace which from memory (I think) was deemed to be mid-engined. If you look at a Mallock - they are 'front engined' but the engine is almost by the drivers left knee. I dont think you could get more extreme than Mike Fields variant as the two-seat rule would become unachievable.
Josh (ex RGB in a Phoenix R1)
Edited by Josh Smith on Tuesday 24th August 14:17
Josh Smith said:
I agree with Lee.
So do I. I don't go to the races, but pictures of RGB cars that I have seen seem just like your average racing car, and looking at them I can see various reasons why they would not pass an IVA or indeed be in anyway practical to take on the road (even in kit car terms )Hi
There is only one place you will get the actual direct answer. The 750mc.
Here's the link to the contacts page on the 750mc web page. Contact Robin Knight.
You'll not get an answer from any forum just opinions.
http://www.750mc.co.uk/contact.php
cheers Matt
There is only one place you will get the actual direct answer. The 750mc.
Here's the link to the contacts page on the 750mc web page. Contact Robin Knight.
You'll not get an answer from any forum just opinions.
http://www.750mc.co.uk/contact.php
cheers Matt
Unless you've got a very unusual design, the definition as far as RGB is concerned will effectively be defined by the rules on cockpit:
Engine in front of bulkhead (ie. in front of cockpit) = front engined.
Pretty simple I would have thought?
Of course, the normal rules will apply: if it doesn't specifically say you can do it in the rules, then assume you can't unless you have run it past the governing body.
- You have to have a cockpit opening that is symmetrical about the centreline of the car, of specified minimum dimensions (800mm wide), with offset driver's seat. This will make it very difficult to locate your engine 'clubmans style' beside the cockpit (unless you have some pretty bizarre dimensions)
- There is a requirement for a continuous bulkhead behind the cockpit, in front of the rear axle.
Engine in front of bulkhead (ie. in front of cockpit) = front engined.
Pretty simple I would have thought?
Of course, the normal rules will apply: if it doesn't specifically say you can do it in the rules, then assume you can't unless you have run it past the governing body.
You'd be well served to check out the draft regs for next season - the class structure is changing and the definition of mid-or-front engined is probably more important than ever:
http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/2011_draft_Regulations.p...
You might also want to introduce yourself to the comittee members on http://www.rgb-racing.org.uk/rgbbb/ to discuss your plans and make sure you don't cause yourself issues.
http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/2011_draft_Regulations.p...
You might also want to introduce yourself to the comittee members on http://www.rgb-racing.org.uk/rgbbb/ to discuss your plans and make sure you don't cause yourself issues.
Tim.C said:
You'd be well served to check out the draft regs for next season - the class structure is changing and the definition of mid-or-front engined is probably more important than ever:
http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/2011_draft_Regulations.p...
You might also want to introduce yourself to the comittee members on http://www.rgb-racing.org.uk/rgbbb/ to discuss your plans and make sure you don't cause yourself issues.
Cheers for those links. Very helpful.http://www.hoverd.org/Tim/2011_draft_Regulations.p...
You might also want to introduce yourself to the comittee members on http://www.rgb-racing.org.uk/rgbbb/ to discuss your plans and make sure you don't cause yourself issues.
I'll be at the 750 meet on Sunday at Silverstone running a Radical so if any of you RGB guys see man with a buzz cut and aviators snooping round your car please don't punch me in the face.... I'm just stealing ideas.
Furyblade_Lee said:
for the last 5 years I think the "road" bit of "road going bike engined" has been relaxed alongcwith having to prove your car has ever been near a road. Or taxed. Insured. MOT'd. SVA / IVA'd. Which I think is a massive shame as it now has just become another championship for race cars. I think a requirement should be at any point a car should be able to drive on the highway if requested. Or they may as well be bikesports.
The rules haven't been relaxed, there's never been a requirement for an RGB car to have been road legal. The wording is the regs is that "All vehicles must comply with MOT requirements (with the exception of emissions), be of sound construction and mechanical condition and be well maintained. There is no requirement for an MOT Certificate, Road Tax or Insurance".You'll find we all tend to take that fairly seriously so we do all have functioning handbrakes, lights, indicators, horn etc.
Regarding the newer generation of mid-engined cars they all of course continue to meet these regulations. I'm currently building a mid-engined BDN which I do plan to IVA.
Is a midengined layout really worth 30Kg on an otherwise 530Kg car? Is this based on lap times or is it more a case of trying to encourage different approaches to keep the series interesting?
If the later then go front engined and properly think through the positioning of everything to bring the masses in and down for a low CoG.
Think about where the battery, fuel, radiator and peddle box go. If the regs permit it could these be positioned in the cockpit somehow? Under a false passenger seat or inside a cunningly designed propshaft tunnel?
Think about aerodynamics. Properly. If the regs permit it go for something like the Honda solar powered car or the record breaking MG of the 50's. Consider covering the wheels. Even if you are sticking with an LSIS style there are still some areas you might be able to change.
Think about how weight is defined. If this is defined as pre-race then can you think of a way to shed weight as you go, water injection into the exhaust, a heavy fire extinguishing system that is partly vented (i.e. two systems, vent one). Probably well dodgy regs wise but remember the frozen fuel used in F1...
The radiator could be mounted low and flat with a fan above it thus sucking air from under the car and allowing a very low and streamlined nose. Again, check the regs.
If the later then go front engined and properly think through the positioning of everything to bring the masses in and down for a low CoG.
Think about where the battery, fuel, radiator and peddle box go. If the regs permit it could these be positioned in the cockpit somehow? Under a false passenger seat or inside a cunningly designed propshaft tunnel?
Think about aerodynamics. Properly. If the regs permit it go for something like the Honda solar powered car or the record breaking MG of the 50's. Consider covering the wheels. Even if you are sticking with an LSIS style there are still some areas you might be able to change.
Think about how weight is defined. If this is defined as pre-race then can you think of a way to shed weight as you go, water injection into the exhaust, a heavy fire extinguishing system that is partly vented (i.e. two systems, vent one). Probably well dodgy regs wise but remember the frozen fuel used in F1...
The radiator could be mounted low and flat with a fan above it thus sucking air from under the car and allowing a very low and streamlined nose. Again, check the regs.
Furyblade_Lee said:
Although saying that, for the last 5 years I think the "road" bit of "road going bike engined" has been relaxed alongcwith having to prove your car has ever been near a road. Or taxed. Insured. MOT'd. SVA / IVA'd. Which I think is a massive shame as it now has just become another championship for race cars. I think a requirement should be at any point a car should be able to drive on the highway if requested. Or they may as well be bikesports. But I digress, I don't thinkbyour cunning plan will work or be morally correct!!!
I am no Columbo
There has never been a requirement to have an Mot or SVA/IVA certificate. However, we do run to a spec that is compatible for passing those tests (many have done so) even though most can't be arsed with the beaurocratic crap needed to do it. We run 75mm min ride height, yoko 048s, need functioning lights, no wings etc, etc. Gordon Griffin had his Mission pass the SVA and thats as racecar like as any car you will see in RGB (mine included). There are many examples of the mid engined Spire on the road and they are very competitive in RGB holding most of the lap records in class B. So there is a very strong link between what is raced in RGB and the sort of car you can buy and put on the road (however impractical they may be). In reality, there are very few racecars (even if derived from road cars) that you would want to take anywhere on the road. The needs of racing is so focussed that it totally ruins the car for use on the road.I am no Columbo
To answer the original poster, the front engined definition just requires the engine to be in front of the driver, separated by some form of bulkhead. It would be great to see a modern take on the front engined concept, the likes of the fury/phoenix are a bit dated, I'm sure some clever design can benefit performance over those cars. However, history tells us that mid/rear engined gives the best car for going fast round a track. Hence the weight penalty in RGB to try and even things up a bit.
Please come by and have a chat with us at Silverstone. I can introduce you to the committee members (I am one) and you can have a good snout round the cars and discuss the details of the regs.
Regards
Paul
RGB #12
progers63 said:
Furyblade_Lee said:
Although saying that, for the last 5 years I think the "road" bit of "road going bike engined" has been relaxed alongcwith having to prove your car has ever been near a road. Or taxed. Insured. MOT'd. SVA / IVA'd. Which I think is a massive shame as it now has just become another championship for race cars. I think a requirement should be at any point a car should be able to drive on the highway if requested. Or they may as well be bikesports. But I digress, I don't thinkbyour cunning plan will work or be morally correct!!!
I am no Columbo
There has never been a requirement to have an Mot or SVA/IVA certificate. However, we do run to a spec that is compatible for passing those tests (many have done so) even though most can't be arsed with the beaurocratic crap needed to do it. We run 75mm min ride height, yoko 048s, need functioning lights, no wings etc, etc. Gordon Griffin had his Mission pass the SVA and thats as racecar like as any car you will see in RGB (mine included). There are many examples of the mid engined Spire on the road and they are very competitive in RGB holding most of the lap records in class B. So there is a very strong link between what is raced in RGB and the sort of car you can buy and put on the road (however impractical they may be). In reality, there are very few racecars (even if derived from road cars) that you would want to take anywhere on the road. The needs of racing is so focussed that it totally ruins the car for use on the road.I am no Columbo
To answer the original poster, the front engined definition just requires the engine to be in front of the driver, separated by some form of bulkhead. It would be great to see a modern take on the front engined concept, the likes of the fury/phoenix are a bit dated, I'm sure some clever design can benefit performance over those cars. However, history tells us that mid/rear engined gives the best car for going fast round a track. Hence the weight penalty in RGB to try and even things up a bit.
Please come by and have a chat with us at Silverstone. I can introduce you to the committee members (I am one) and you can have a good snout round the cars and discuss the details of the regs.
Regards
Paul
RGB #12
Whatever we build though will be something abit out of the ordinary and unique. Can I ask what size tyres/wheels people tend to run?
Progers, you hit my nail on the head for me! I understand what you are saying totally about not wanting to take the racers near the road, but that was exactly my point!!! I never understood the logic in "road" because they soon were not. I suppose for me Alistair Massarella's first green Fury and Gordon's blue one epitomised for me a superb series where genuine road cars as pretty as pictures could be weekend warriors, and I had many a good road run in Gordons car. That's what I aimed to do with mine. Then I suppose the bar got raised quite quickly with cars like Andy Charlsey's Fury which I doubt ever saw a road itself. Then in my opinion it went downhill from there for me, to the point I don't take any notice anymore. They are just like Radical racing only slower! And you can road register a radical if you like. Maybe I am just old fashioned and like to see number plates on racing cars and see them occasionally be exercised on the road. RGB seems a nonsense for me now and I'd much rather watch 60's or 70's sportscars. I am sure RGB is still fun though.
Furyblade_Lee said:
Progers, you hit my nail on the head for me! I understand what you are saying totally about not wanting to take the racers near the road, but that was exactly my point!!! I never understood the logic in "road" because they soon were not. I suppose for me Alistair Massarella's first green Fury and Gordon's blue one epitomised for me a superb series where genuine road cars as pretty as pictures could be weekend warriors, and I had many a good road run in Gordons car. That's what I aimed to do with mine. Then I suppose the bar got raised quite quickly with cars like Andy Charlsey's Fury which I doubt ever saw a road itself. Then in my opinion it went downhill from there for me, to the point I don't take any notice anymore. They are just like Radical racing only slower! And you can road register a radical if you like. Maybe I am just old fashioned and like to see number plates on racing cars and see them occasionally be exercised on the road. RGB seems a nonsense for me now and I'd much rather watch 60's or 70's sportscars. I am sure RGB is still fun though.
Unfortunately thats evolution. Don't forget though that most of the cars are still based on kits that you can buy and build. Last years champion was a Striker (albiet optimised for racing) and this year is likely to be won by an STM Phoenix. Its far from the mega-bucks world of Radical racing and offers great bang for your buck when you consider the performance on offer. That I think is the core of what RGB is, hugely entertaining, fast racing that gives you great value for money. There is nothing stopping a road car competing though, and in the right hands it will be racing in the mid pack and having great fun - that's what its all about really, you can't expect everyone to be at the pointy end of the grid :-)Cheers
- Paul
Bugger, didn't realise until I got to Silverstone on Sunday that the RGB's had run on Saturday, I wasn't being rude to you Paul and not turning up for a natter.
Oh well, a couple of 2nd places and a b
king for riding on the side of a car aren't bad for a days work.
Hopefully the RGB's and bike sports will be running on the same day as us at Snett'
We now have a part number list and a drawing board basic plan for the chassis. Once we choose an engine and wheel/tyre sizes we can make a serious start on the design.
Oh well, a couple of 2nd places and a b
king for riding on the side of a car aren't bad for a days work.Hopefully the RGB's and bike sports will be running on the same day as us at Snett'
We now have a part number list and a drawing board basic plan for the chassis. Once we choose an engine and wheel/tyre sizes we can make a serious start on the design.
Gassing Station | Kit Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff