Desulphating on trickle charger
Discussion
I took the R1 Fury out yesterday started first time, drove round all day getting to grips with it..never missed a beat. Stuck it in the garage and put the Optimate on it for the battery and the 'desulphating' light was on for hours before it said charging. As I thought it'd be okay after being used all day I took the Optimate off it late on last night after the desulphating light finally went off. Got up this morning and it span over like a good'un but wouldn't fire. Put my own charger on it and it fired first time and just left it running, fine all day...Stopped for fuel and again for drinks later on and fired instantly.
So can anyone tell me what the desulphating is? In layman's.. Does it discharge the battery then re-charge it or something? It was fine before I put the optimate on it. It still read 12.4V on the dash but wouldn't cough. I think maybe I stopped it while it was recharging?
So can anyone tell me what the desulphating is? In layman's.. Does it discharge the battery then re-charge it or something? It was fine before I put the optimate on it. It still read 12.4V on the dash but wouldn't cough. I think maybe I stopped it while it was recharging?
An aside - do keep an eye on the charging system. Check the voltage at idle across the battery at random - should be c. 13.6v or more at idle when fully charged.
The R1 engine (5PW epecially, 2001-04) has a rep for regulator/rectifier failures - and when it happens, the stator coil likely goes too. Basically, the insulation on the stock stator is weak, and eventually will punch-though - tis a big inductor suddenly unloaded... A winding then goes short either within one of the coils but most likely to 0v (chassis), and the coil cooks. Meanwhile the first you know is that it won't restart...
On the plus side, with just the R1 ecu and a fuel pump runnng, the total draw is only 2 or 3 amps and even a small battery will get you home runing total-loss (hint, that's how I did it, 2hrs+ across Exmoor!)
I've recently replaced my car's stator in-situ (engine c. 6yrs / 8K miles from new) & have posted salient details in my profile garage blog. It's a knuckle-skinner, but not difficult. Happy to give you chapter & verse if needed...
The R1 engine (5PW epecially, 2001-04) has a rep for regulator/rectifier failures - and when it happens, the stator coil likely goes too. Basically, the insulation on the stock stator is weak, and eventually will punch-though - tis a big inductor suddenly unloaded... A winding then goes short either within one of the coils but most likely to 0v (chassis), and the coil cooks. Meanwhile the first you know is that it won't restart...
On the plus side, with just the R1 ecu and a fuel pump runnng, the total draw is only 2 or 3 amps and even a small battery will get you home runing total-loss (hint, that's how I did it, 2hrs+ across Exmoor!)
I've recently replaced my car's stator in-situ (engine c. 6yrs / 8K miles from new) & have posted salient details in my profile garage blog. It's a knuckle-skinner, but not difficult. Happy to give you chapter & verse if needed...
Edited by Huff on Sunday 17th October 19:27
Huff said:
An aside - do keep an eye on the charging system. Check the voltage at idle across the battery at random - should be c. 13.6v or more at idle when fully charged.
The R1 engine (5PW epecially, 2001-04) has a rep for regulator/rectifier failures - and when it happens, the stator coil likely goes too. Basically, the insulation on the stock stator is weak, and eventually will punch-though - tis a big inductor suddenly unloaded... A winding then goes short either within one of the coils but most likely to 0v (chassis), and the coil cooks. Meanwhile the first you know is that it won't restart...
On the plus side, with just the R1 ecu and a fuel pump runnng, the total draw is only 2 or 3 amps and even a small battery will get you home runing total-loss (hint, that's how I did it, 2hrs+ across Exmoor!)
I've recently replaced mine in-situ (engine c. 6yrs / 8K miles from new) & have posted some details in profile blog. Happy to give you chapter & verse if needed...
At Idle it is around 14V, it just wouldn't fire at 12.5V, but I bet if I left it the night without the optimate or anything it'd have been fine in the morning. I think I must have stopped the optimate mid cycle or something because it just made it worse!The R1 engine (5PW epecially, 2001-04) has a rep for regulator/rectifier failures - and when it happens, the stator coil likely goes too. Basically, the insulation on the stock stator is weak, and eventually will punch-though - tis a big inductor suddenly unloaded... A winding then goes short either within one of the coils but most likely to 0v (chassis), and the coil cooks. Meanwhile the first you know is that it won't restart...
On the plus side, with just the R1 ecu and a fuel pump runnng, the total draw is only 2 or 3 amps and even a small battery will get you home runing total-loss (hint, that's how I did it, 2hrs+ across Exmoor!)
I've recently replaced mine in-situ (engine c. 6yrs / 8K miles from new) & have posted some details in profile blog. Happy to give you chapter & verse if needed...
Any info would be most useful, as I'm totally new to the car/engine....oh it's a 5PW motor too.
14v is very healthy. Out of interest, what capacity is the battery? It may simply be getting old (>3yrs in motorbike terms, esp if it's a tiny 12Ah jobby as mine was). A good battery should measure around 12.8v fully charged, but unconnected/unloaded.
Anyway, charging SLA batteries is *not* rocket science. The ideal is to 'float charge', i.e use a current-limited, constant-voltage source, set between 13.8 and 14.5v depending on rate of charge required. Easily done with an LM317 and a wallwart or somesuch, if needed...
PS That's a nice looking Fury!
Anyway, charging SLA batteries is *not* rocket science. The ideal is to 'float charge', i.e use a current-limited, constant-voltage source, set between 13.8 and 14.5v depending on rate of charge required. Easily done with an LM317 and a wallwart or somesuch, if needed...
PS That's a nice looking Fury!
Huff said:
14v is very healthy. Out of interest, what capacity is the battery? It may simply be getting old (>3yrs in motorbike terms, esp if it's a tiny 12Ah jobby as mine was). A good battery should measure around 12.8v fully charged, but unconnected/unloaded.
Anyway, charging SLA batteries is *not* rocket science. The ideal is to 'float charge', i.e use a current-limited, constant-voltage source, set between 13.8 and 14.5v depending on rate of charge required. Easily done with an LM317 and a wallwart or somesuch, if needed...
PS That's a nice looking Fury!
Thanks Anyway, charging SLA batteries is *not* rocket science. The ideal is to 'float charge', i.e use a current-limited, constant-voltage source, set between 13.8 and 14.5v depending on rate of charge required. Easily done with an LM317 and a wallwart or somesuch, if needed...
PS That's a nice looking Fury!
I think the battery is about 3 years old now, was thinking of getting a new Odyssey one. Will check the capacity but it is a normal small motorbike battery so it's probably no different to yours. I just don't understand why it wouldn't fire at 12.5V! Ah the joys of kit car motoring
That's because under the load of the starter (c. 80A on the R1), that open-circuit voltage from a small battery will sink to 9-10 volts locally* which will dramatically affect injector duty cycle, ignition spark energy, everything critical...
If you were 'going-to' anyway - just replace the battery, and sleep well. I went for a more-normal 36Ah car unit over the race cell orig fitted, because *I * could easily/usefully lose the 3KG difference. Not enough to worry about, but it starts instantly.
If you were 'going-to' anyway - just replace the battery, and sleep well. I went for a more-normal 36Ah car unit over the race cell orig fitted, because *I * could easily/usefully lose the 3KG difference. Not enough to worry about, but it starts instantly.
- digital voltmeters generally a slow averaging approximation...
Huff said:
That's because under the load of the starter (c. 80A on the R1), that open-circuit voltage from a small battery will sink to 9-10 volts locally* which will dramatically affect injector duty cycle, ignition spark energy, everything critical...
If you were 'going-to' anyway - just replace the battery, and sleep well. I went for a more-normal 36Ah car unit over the race cell orig fitted, because *I * could easily/usefully lose the 3KG difference. Not enough to worry about, but it starts instantly.
Mmmn, I think I can live with sacrificing a couple of KG for reliability! Either that or two little ones? Probs best with the one bigger battery though.If you were 'going-to' anyway - just replace the battery, and sleep well. I went for a more-normal 36Ah car unit over the race cell orig fitted, because *I * could easily/usefully lose the 3KG difference. Not enough to worry about, but it starts instantly.
- digital voltmeters generally a slow averaging approximation...
I have just burnt out my second stator generator on my '03 5PW R1. Pain in the arse! I did the second one at Zolder, Belgium and came home in convoy swapping batteries with GTMs ! In my experience the bike battery will only run the car for 20 minutes before you get an effect like an AK47 going off in your ear and the car just dies. This time was a Belgian mororway slipraod amongst the lorries... :-( . I did a trackday at brands with Totalkitcar 2 weeks ago and got through 9 bike batteries on rotation.... the fuel pump apparently draws massive current and a fuly charged GTM Libra battery JUST got me 70 miles home from Dover in 50 minutes. I think a bad ngine-to-chassis earth is the culprit in my particular car, coupled with not very good stators to start with. I wont tell you my method to getting flywheel off, its not textbook....... :-)
Ryan, just connect up a regular car battery to the car and if it works fine then invest in a new bike battery, I replace every 2 years as they do get past their best. You could fit a huge lorry battery to the car theoretically but a healthy bike battery will start it 100% of the time. And if your stator goes a huge battery will just mean you break down exactly the same just 150 miles furthur up the road.
Ryan, just connect up a regular car battery to the car and if it works fine then invest in a new bike battery, I replace every 2 years as they do get past their best. You could fit a huge lorry battery to the car theoretically but a healthy bike battery will start it 100% of the time. And if your stator goes a huge battery will just mean you break down exactly the same just 150 miles furthur up the road.
Furyblade_Lee said:
I have just burnt out my second stator generator on my '03 5PW R1. Pain in the arse! I did the second one at Zolder, Belgium and came home in convoy swapping batteries with GTMs ! In my experience the bike battery will only run the car for 20 minutes before you get an effect like an AK47 going off in your ear and the car just dies. This time was a Belgian mororway slipraod amongst the lorries... :-( . I did a trackday at brands with Totalkitcar 2 weeks ago and got through 9 bike batteries on rotation.... the fuel pump apparently draws massive current and a fuly charged GTM Libra battery JUST got me 70 miles home from Dover in 50 minutes. I think a bad ngine-to-chassis earth is the culprit in my particular car, coupled with not very good stators to start with. I wont tell you my method to getting flywheel off, its not textbook....... :-)
Ryan, just connect up a regular car battery to the car and if it works fine then invest in a new bike battery, I replace every 2 years as they do get past their best. You could fit a huge lorry battery to the car theoretically but a healthy bike battery will start it 100% of the time. And if your stator goes a huge battery will just mean you break down exactly the same just 150 miles furthur up the road.
Seems fine today and the charger is just charging and testing, I don't think the car had been used much, if at all before it was brought here. Well after it'd been to the alps anyway! None of the desulphating gubbins. I think I'll invest in a new one for peace of mind if nothing else. Is there not a upgraded stator and regulator if they have a tendancy to let go??Ryan, just connect up a regular car battery to the car and if it works fine then invest in a new bike battery, I replace every 2 years as they do get past their best. You could fit a huge lorry battery to the car theoretically but a healthy bike battery will start it 100% of the time. And if your stator goes a huge battery will just mean you break down exactly the same just 150 miles furthur up the road.
Does the regulator just get too hot?
Sulphation is the build up of lead sulphate crystals on the internal battery plates. It slowly reduces the available capacity of the battery.
Lead sulphate is a product of the normal chemical reactions in the battery but it is converted back to lead and lead oxide when the battery is recharged. If you allow the battery to stand unused for longer periods of time the crystals can become permanent.
Battery chargers with a de-sulphation phase supply a higher current than normal, often pulsed, to try to remove the sulphation then revert to their normal charging sequence.
I have never had a problem with an Optimate charger failing but they do have the limitation that they are not designed to deliver high charging currents. They are basically maintenance chargers and take quite a while to recharge a fully discharged car battery.
Lead sulphate is a product of the normal chemical reactions in the battery but it is converted back to lead and lead oxide when the battery is recharged. If you allow the battery to stand unused for longer periods of time the crystals can become permanent.
Battery chargers with a de-sulphation phase supply a higher current than normal, often pulsed, to try to remove the sulphation then revert to their normal charging sequence.
I have never had a problem with an Optimate charger failing but they do have the limitation that they are not designed to deliver high charging currents. They are basically maintenance chargers and take quite a while to recharge a fully discharged car battery.
Thanks John, it seems fine now. I think it'd had a stint in the garage unused without the optimate then I probably gave the battery a hard time on Saturday as I stalled it a few times getting used to the bike clutch. Seems to have 'reconditioned' it now though!
That would be great Lee. Ian said it's still on it's original reg and stator, it's a very well sorted car but I'd be tempted to buy spares anyway to preempt it!
That would be great Lee. Ian said it's still on it's original reg and stator, it's a very well sorted car but I'd be tempted to buy spares anyway to preempt it!
Furyblade_Lee said:
Huff, contacted them today, sending it aff and buying a new rectifier! Cheers!
Cost??Might have it done when it snows (it's bound to soon), just to preempt any issues in future. Are they aware of the poor factory windings and are theirs better??
Edited by Yazza54 on Wednesday 20th October 21:40
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