Complete Kit Car Magazine - Car of the Year 2010
Discussion
Well finally managed to get to read CKC, COTY 2010 and what a glowing report both Ian and Adam have given the V-Storm, with comments such as “It’s not the outright pace that dazzles the most - it’s the way the V-Storm demolishes a B-road. It’s remains composed yet grips hard no matter what” and “A revelation that a new car from such a young company with no previous track record can be so brilliant”, strong words to put it mildly.
I had originally looked into building a V-Storm a couple of years ago and have since watched both the product and company evolve. In fact I managed to corner Simon for almost an hour at this years Stafford kit car show, where upon I managed to probe about the cars development and handling characteristics, it’s the latter that has always intrigued me. A couple of things have always worried me initially the length of wheel base, and thus its agility on tight twisty circuits and secondly the excessive rear ride height coupled with the mass of the Subaru gearbox aft of the rear wheels.
The first independent road test on the car I read was in the FT, by Vicki Butler-Henderson and gave the impression of a car that had potential but inevitably required further development, the second and most contradictory to the CKC’s views was recently realised in “TrackDriver” magazine with comments like "the steering was more vague than expected" and "it's the lateral loading that gave us the biggest problem. When the rear broke away it couldn't be accused of being progressive or gentle" a short video of there testing at Silverstones Stowe Circuit demonstrates the problems and can be viewed at http://www.vimeo.com/16269319
Based on these, both very recent, conflicting professional reviews I’m inevitably back to square one again.
Can anyone on here shed any light on why these two reviews are so far apart, or if there are any V-Strom owners reading this post please share your personal experiences, road or track, of driving the car, weather its your own or the company’s demonstrator, I’m genuinely interested in how this car handles.
nigel
I had originally looked into building a V-Storm a couple of years ago and have since watched both the product and company evolve. In fact I managed to corner Simon for almost an hour at this years Stafford kit car show, where upon I managed to probe about the cars development and handling characteristics, it’s the latter that has always intrigued me. A couple of things have always worried me initially the length of wheel base, and thus its agility on tight twisty circuits and secondly the excessive rear ride height coupled with the mass of the Subaru gearbox aft of the rear wheels.
The first independent road test on the car I read was in the FT, by Vicki Butler-Henderson and gave the impression of a car that had potential but inevitably required further development, the second and most contradictory to the CKC’s views was recently realised in “TrackDriver” magazine with comments like "the steering was more vague than expected" and "it's the lateral loading that gave us the biggest problem. When the rear broke away it couldn't be accused of being progressive or gentle" a short video of there testing at Silverstones Stowe Circuit demonstrates the problems and can be viewed at http://www.vimeo.com/16269319
Based on these, both very recent, conflicting professional reviews I’m inevitably back to square one again.
Can anyone on here shed any light on why these two reviews are so far apart, or if there are any V-Strom owners reading this post please share your personal experiences, road or track, of driving the car, weather its your own or the company’s demonstrator, I’m genuinely interested in how this car handles.
nigel
Hmmm, at the risk of getting drawn into a debate which i do not want...but i do feel there are a few points worth mentioning..all IMHO ..and I am guessing you drive a Sonic ?..
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but don’t judge it until you try it for yourself, As I assume that have never driven the car to give you a 1st hand experience of the car to make your comments .The way a car handles is very much a personal thing. what one person likes another may not.
I.e. some people like under steer, some like over steer, and so on. No 2 drivers are alike.
Even the likes of Top Gear Team, all argue and have differing opinions on the same car when they test Jeremy Clarkson says a car is not very good, the Hamster loves it and so does James and Vice Versa. Then another TV programme or magazine review the same car, and raves about it, or slates it.
IMO I’m afraid its not as clear cut as you suggest.
If a car push’s all your buttons then who cares what people think. The proof is in the pudding and trying for your selves and making your own opinion based on your own experience. I would never buy a car without driving it to make sure it puts a silly grin on my face and push’s all my buttons.
This may interest some of you. Here is what some noble owners thought when they went out in the car from another pistonheads post.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... View & Drive day!&mid=0
As quoted:-
I had originally looked into building a V-Storm a couple of years ago and have since watched both the product and company evolve. In fact I managed to corner Simon for almost an hour at this years Stafford kit car show, where upon I managed to probe about the cars development and handling characteristics, it’s the latter that has always intrigued me. A couple of things have always worried me initially the length of wheel base, and thus its agility on tight twisty circuits and secondly the excessive rear ride height coupled with the mass of the Subaru gearbox aft of the rear wheels.
Question?;-
What is the wheel base do you know what it is, or is this an observation best guess or is it based on something factual ?
Ride height is adjustable so the car could be lowered, but if its set for road use I guess it will clear speed bumps unlike some other sportscars/ kitcars,but I guess if you put it on the track you could lower it lowering the C of G. I have done some research on the web about the V-Storm and have found out the following.
The V-Storm is a true mid engine car, in the true sense of the word just like a gt40 ? Not a rear engine car with a tall transverse mounted engine with a high C of G and Roll . Also the flat four engine provided an extremely low C of G, the V-Storm also appears to be of a symmetrical design components being placed the same on the left and right of the car so if cut in half its a mirror image from left to right in theory this should give it a near perfect balance left to right off the centreline of the car. These are just some of the things I have noticed on closer inspection of the information out there.
I wonder what some of the V-Storm builders think ? Or even people with first hand experience driving/passenger/builder etc??
Quote:-
The first independent road test on the car I read was in the FT, by Vicki Butler-Henderson and gave the impression of a car that had potential but inevitably required further development
Point to mention here;-
This article is now nearly 1 year old, th car has changed since then, but if you read it carefully this is what Vicki Butler Henderson Says about the cars steering suspension handling.
“an experienced driver could detect any differences in surfaces underneath the left and right sides of the car. It’s fantastic to watch the 17in front tyres move at the exact time you turn the steering, something only single-seater racing drivers usually experience, and is as close as three people are likely to come to riding a motorbike together”.
“As with similar cars, you can adjust the shock absorbers, spring rates and ride height to suit most tarmac-based activities, abilities and passenger weights. In the half-road, half-race setup I tested, there was more front-end bite than I would have expected in the slippery conditions, and a controllable amount of tail-sliding oversteer when you demanded it via your right foot.”
Read the review for yourself at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/features/...
I have watched the video footage from the link you provided Nigel and watched some of the other for a comparison.
IMO its clear to see that MEV had a very dry track and was running r888 tyres and managed a best time of 1.03 minute lap in the dry.
The V-Storm did a best of 1.09 minutes in what looks like very tricky conditions lots of standing water,with wet and dryer parts of the circuit.
When you study the telemetry on the videos you can see even in the wet the V-Storm managed high G forces through corning, and has good terminal speeds through the straight parts of the circuit. I noticed the video for what looks like a fully race prepared prepared MkII” Golf it managed a best lap of 1.12 in what look like the same conditions. I think to keep up with a fully track circuit prepared car in similar conditions is a feat in itself, let alone go quicker.
How would the V-Storm have fared in equal conditions and in a track setup ?
Sometimes things are not as they seem !
Here a link to the Mev and Golf video if you want to take a look for comparison http://www.vimeo.com/17666339http://www.vimeo.com/15994490
There are others on there too.
Quote:-
Based on these, both very recent, conflicting professional reviews I’m inevitably back to square one again.
Can anyone on here shed any light on why these two reviews are so far apart, or if there are any V-Strom owners reading this post please share your personal experiences, road or track, of driving the car, weather its your own or the company’s demonstrator, I’m genuinely interested in how this car handles.
nigel
- I hope Nigel the above may provide some reasons answers as to why sometimes things don’t seem to stack up, and as you say “reviews which are so far apart” . Maybe on the day CKC did there COTY test the weather was just right it was a road that suited the car etc, etc. There are so many variables that can affect the outcome of any kind of test I still stand by my IMO:-
I’m afraid it’s not as clear cut as you suggest. If a car push’s all your buttons then who cares what people think. The proof is in the pudding and trying for your selves and making your own opinion based on your own experience. I would never buy a car without driving it to make sure it puts a silly grin on my face and push’s all my buttons.
Hopefully this covers most of the points Nigel and may or may not shed any light on your post. So I guess you are still back to square one.
You won’t know until you try one and see if it ticks your boxes. I would also like to say that of all the magazines I am a Great supporter of CKC and think it’s a magazine of great integrity, and who’s more qualified to give feedback on a kitcars than them, as Ian Stent and Adam Wilkins have probably driven every kitcar out there and then some.
Again no baiting intended just trying to add balance.
Also I uderstand that a few issues with the V storm demo car have been further devolped, i.e better suspension, production bespoke intercooler/higher capacity rads, suspension settings, spoiler options,panel fit improved even a sequential shift on the horizon...and serious horse power options with launch/anti lag etc
IMHO these cars more so than any mainstream are such a personel choice, there are no rights or wrongs really ..if you like it thats the box ticked.
J
BTW to all u kit car fans Merry Xmas :-)
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but don’t judge it until you try it for yourself, As I assume that have never driven the car to give you a 1st hand experience of the car to make your comments .The way a car handles is very much a personal thing. what one person likes another may not.
I.e. some people like under steer, some like over steer, and so on. No 2 drivers are alike.
Even the likes of Top Gear Team, all argue and have differing opinions on the same car when they test Jeremy Clarkson says a car is not very good, the Hamster loves it and so does James and Vice Versa. Then another TV programme or magazine review the same car, and raves about it, or slates it.
IMO I’m afraid its not as clear cut as you suggest.
If a car push’s all your buttons then who cares what people think. The proof is in the pudding and trying for your selves and making your own opinion based on your own experience. I would never buy a car without driving it to make sure it puts a silly grin on my face and push’s all my buttons.
This may interest some of you. Here is what some noble owners thought when they went out in the car from another pistonheads post.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... View & Drive day!&mid=0
As quoted:-
I had originally looked into building a V-Storm a couple of years ago and have since watched both the product and company evolve. In fact I managed to corner Simon for almost an hour at this years Stafford kit car show, where upon I managed to probe about the cars development and handling characteristics, it’s the latter that has always intrigued me. A couple of things have always worried me initially the length of wheel base, and thus its agility on tight twisty circuits and secondly the excessive rear ride height coupled with the mass of the Subaru gearbox aft of the rear wheels.
Question?;-
What is the wheel base do you know what it is, or is this an observation best guess or is it based on something factual ?
Ride height is adjustable so the car could be lowered, but if its set for road use I guess it will clear speed bumps unlike some other sportscars/ kitcars,but I guess if you put it on the track you could lower it lowering the C of G. I have done some research on the web about the V-Storm and have found out the following.
The V-Storm is a true mid engine car, in the true sense of the word just like a gt40 ? Not a rear engine car with a tall transverse mounted engine with a high C of G and Roll . Also the flat four engine provided an extremely low C of G, the V-Storm also appears to be of a symmetrical design components being placed the same on the left and right of the car so if cut in half its a mirror image from left to right in theory this should give it a near perfect balance left to right off the centreline of the car. These are just some of the things I have noticed on closer inspection of the information out there.
I wonder what some of the V-Storm builders think ? Or even people with first hand experience driving/passenger/builder etc??
Quote:-
The first independent road test on the car I read was in the FT, by Vicki Butler-Henderson and gave the impression of a car that had potential but inevitably required further development
Point to mention here;-
This article is now nearly 1 year old, th car has changed since then, but if you read it carefully this is what Vicki Butler Henderson Says about the cars steering suspension handling.
“an experienced driver could detect any differences in surfaces underneath the left and right sides of the car. It’s fantastic to watch the 17in front tyres move at the exact time you turn the steering, something only single-seater racing drivers usually experience, and is as close as three people are likely to come to riding a motorbike together”.
“As with similar cars, you can adjust the shock absorbers, spring rates and ride height to suit most tarmac-based activities, abilities and passenger weights. In the half-road, half-race setup I tested, there was more front-end bite than I would have expected in the slippery conditions, and a controllable amount of tail-sliding oversteer when you demanded it via your right foot.”
Read the review for yourself at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/features/...
I have watched the video footage from the link you provided Nigel and watched some of the other for a comparison.
IMO its clear to see that MEV had a very dry track and was running r888 tyres and managed a best time of 1.03 minute lap in the dry.
The V-Storm did a best of 1.09 minutes in what looks like very tricky conditions lots of standing water,with wet and dryer parts of the circuit.
When you study the telemetry on the videos you can see even in the wet the V-Storm managed high G forces through corning, and has good terminal speeds through the straight parts of the circuit. I noticed the video for what looks like a fully race prepared prepared MkII” Golf it managed a best lap of 1.12 in what look like the same conditions. I think to keep up with a fully track circuit prepared car in similar conditions is a feat in itself, let alone go quicker.
How would the V-Storm have fared in equal conditions and in a track setup ?
Sometimes things are not as they seem !
Here a link to the Mev and Golf video if you want to take a look for comparison http://www.vimeo.com/17666339http://www.vimeo.com/15994490
There are others on there too.
Quote:-
Based on these, both very recent, conflicting professional reviews I’m inevitably back to square one again.
Can anyone on here shed any light on why these two reviews are so far apart, or if there are any V-Strom owners reading this post please share your personal experiences, road or track, of driving the car, weather its your own or the company’s demonstrator, I’m genuinely interested in how this car handles.
nigel
- I hope Nigel the above may provide some reasons answers as to why sometimes things don’t seem to stack up, and as you say “reviews which are so far apart” . Maybe on the day CKC did there COTY test the weather was just right it was a road that suited the car etc, etc. There are so many variables that can affect the outcome of any kind of test I still stand by my IMO:-
I’m afraid it’s not as clear cut as you suggest. If a car push’s all your buttons then who cares what people think. The proof is in the pudding and trying for your selves and making your own opinion based on your own experience. I would never buy a car without driving it to make sure it puts a silly grin on my face and push’s all my buttons.
Hopefully this covers most of the points Nigel and may or may not shed any light on your post. So I guess you are still back to square one.
You won’t know until you try one and see if it ticks your boxes. I would also like to say that of all the magazines I am a Great supporter of CKC and think it’s a magazine of great integrity, and who’s more qualified to give feedback on a kitcars than them, as Ian Stent and Adam Wilkins have probably driven every kitcar out there and then some.
Again no baiting intended just trying to add balance.
Also I uderstand that a few issues with the V storm demo car have been further devolped, i.e better suspension, production bespoke intercooler/higher capacity rads, suspension settings, spoiler options,panel fit improved even a sequential shift on the horizon...and serious horse power options with launch/anti lag etc
IMHO these cars more so than any mainstream are such a personel choice, there are no rights or wrongs really ..if you like it thats the box ticked.
J
BTW to all u kit car fans Merry Xmas :-)
I tend to go along with Jason's viewpoint with this issue I liken a car to a piece of art, different pieces of art mean different things to different people, indeed if we all liked the same thing, the world would be a boring place.
I purchased the V-storm after doing the usual research then deciding it presses my buttons in lots of ways, subaru engine, three seater,(room for a lump of a driver!)Well thought out and put together. I read the VBH review and didn't think it was too bad 3 stars overall, given she was driving a prototype in development and the issues raised were and have been addressed in the production versions. Turbo lag and brakes being two of them with an amended up pipe and exhaust system. VBH will now also be able to reach the brake pedal properly with the adjustable seat.
In all 3 stars is a very credible score, given the types of car VBH drives day in day out and the natural comparisons she would have made.
In relation to the handling, I for one will probably not get anywhere close to its limits to wotrry about breakaway,over/understeer, yaw, slip, grip, spin, or anything else that comes into it. As long as it puts an inane immoveable grin on my sons and my faces, job done.
I purchased the V-storm after doing the usual research then deciding it presses my buttons in lots of ways, subaru engine, three seater,(room for a lump of a driver!)Well thought out and put together. I read the VBH review and didn't think it was too bad 3 stars overall, given she was driving a prototype in development and the issues raised were and have been addressed in the production versions. Turbo lag and brakes being two of them with an amended up pipe and exhaust system. VBH will now also be able to reach the brake pedal properly with the adjustable seat.
In all 3 stars is a very credible score, given the types of car VBH drives day in day out and the natural comparisons she would have made.
In relation to the handling, I for one will probably not get anywhere close to its limits to wotrry about breakaway,over/understeer, yaw, slip, grip, spin, or anything else that comes into it. As long as it puts an inane immoveable grin on my sons and my faces, job done.
I hoped this thread would stimulate debate, but not necessarily in the direction its being drawn so I’ll try and get it back on track.
Yes you are correct ‘jasemac’ (Jason) I do currently drive and am the proud owner of an MEV Sonic7, is not my first kit car or hopefully my last - funds, time and health permitting.
You are also correct in that I have never driven a V-Storm, and therefore until I do will have to rely on the opinions of those that have, including car testers / journalists of whom make a living of driving and reporting there findings.
As for your question:- “What is the wheel base do you know what it is, or is this an observation best guess or is it based on something factual ? “
I believe the published wheel base to be 2,590mm. But in truth, it was only by looking at it side on, while at a show, and having many other kit cars around to compare with, that it struck me to have, by comparison, a relatively long wheelbase.
Now with reference to your quote:- “I have done some research on the web about the V-Storm and have found out the following.”
I’m not quite sure what your trying achieve here, a simple look at your Forum profile tells me that you are Jason McDonald, Director of ‘Scoobybits’ and are an official supplier of both SDR V-Storm kits and its related Donors. So quite what your trying to do by stating that you need to “research on the web about the V-Storm” in order tell me that :-
“The V-Storm is a true mid engine car, ………… the V-Storm also appears to be of a symmetrical design……… this should give it a near perfect balance left to right off the centreline of the car. These are just some of the things I have noticed on closer inspection of the information out there.”
I could draw a number of conclusions as to what your game plan is but to be honest I’m not really bothered, and I’d rather leave it up to others to decide.
Furthermore while I’m aware that TrackDriver evaluated both the RTR M350 Rocket and the SDR V-Storm WR3 on the same day and track, with the RTR M350 coming out on top by a clear mile, it wasn‘t a direct head to head competition but more an appraisal of what the kit car market had to offer to the track day enthusiast as an alternative from such established marks as Caterham etc.
This thread, that I started, was initial about CKC’s COTY 2010 winners, and subsequently how and why two respectable magazines can give such fundamental differing opinions about the same car. Therefore may I suggest that if you wish to compare TrackDriver’s evaluation of the RTR M350 Rocket and SDR V-Storm WR3 then you start your own thread, and please be honest as to who you represent and where your allegiances lie from the start.
Anyway, putting the above to one side, as an official agent of SDR you might be able to shed some light on what was the outcome of SDR talks with Black Art Design with a view to making some suspension changes to alleviate the roll oversteer issue, and if you get the chance I’d be interested to hear why TrackDriver raised issues with seat position, peddles and gear selection (let alone gear stick position) yet CKC gave the V-Storm a near perfect score for Driving Position - have things changed ?
I too am a great supporter and admirer of CKC, and it is for that reason that I have corresponded directly with both Adam and Ian in order to better understand how they arrived at there findings.
To reiterate until I can judge for myself by driving the V-Storm (if Simon will ever let me after the way this thread has been twisted) and formulate my own opinion I will just have to rely on the opinions and views of others, as well as what ever information I can glean from people in the know.
To those owners and builders of the V-Storm, I have nothing but admiration and I look forward next year to seeing Phil’s new Turbo powered WR3 creation in the flesh.
nigel
Yes you are correct ‘jasemac’ (Jason) I do currently drive and am the proud owner of an MEV Sonic7, is not my first kit car or hopefully my last - funds, time and health permitting.
You are also correct in that I have never driven a V-Storm, and therefore until I do will have to rely on the opinions of those that have, including car testers / journalists of whom make a living of driving and reporting there findings.
As for your question:- “What is the wheel base do you know what it is, or is this an observation best guess or is it based on something factual ? “
I believe the published wheel base to be 2,590mm. But in truth, it was only by looking at it side on, while at a show, and having many other kit cars around to compare with, that it struck me to have, by comparison, a relatively long wheelbase.
Now with reference to your quote:- “I have done some research on the web about the V-Storm and have found out the following.”
I’m not quite sure what your trying achieve here, a simple look at your Forum profile tells me that you are Jason McDonald, Director of ‘Scoobybits’ and are an official supplier of both SDR V-Storm kits and its related Donors. So quite what your trying to do by stating that you need to “research on the web about the V-Storm” in order tell me that :-
“The V-Storm is a true mid engine car, ………… the V-Storm also appears to be of a symmetrical design……… this should give it a near perfect balance left to right off the centreline of the car. These are just some of the things I have noticed on closer inspection of the information out there.”
I could draw a number of conclusions as to what your game plan is but to be honest I’m not really bothered, and I’d rather leave it up to others to decide.
Furthermore while I’m aware that TrackDriver evaluated both the RTR M350 Rocket and the SDR V-Storm WR3 on the same day and track, with the RTR M350 coming out on top by a clear mile, it wasn‘t a direct head to head competition but more an appraisal of what the kit car market had to offer to the track day enthusiast as an alternative from such established marks as Caterham etc.
This thread, that I started, was initial about CKC’s COTY 2010 winners, and subsequently how and why two respectable magazines can give such fundamental differing opinions about the same car. Therefore may I suggest that if you wish to compare TrackDriver’s evaluation of the RTR M350 Rocket and SDR V-Storm WR3 then you start your own thread, and please be honest as to who you represent and where your allegiances lie from the start.
Anyway, putting the above to one side, as an official agent of SDR you might be able to shed some light on what was the outcome of SDR talks with Black Art Design with a view to making some suspension changes to alleviate the roll oversteer issue, and if you get the chance I’d be interested to hear why TrackDriver raised issues with seat position, peddles and gear selection (let alone gear stick position) yet CKC gave the V-Storm a near perfect score for Driving Position - have things changed ?
I too am a great supporter and admirer of CKC, and it is for that reason that I have corresponded directly with both Adam and Ian in order to better understand how they arrived at there findings.
To reiterate until I can judge for myself by driving the V-Storm (if Simon will ever let me after the way this thread has been twisted) and formulate my own opinion I will just have to rely on the opinions and views of others, as well as what ever information I can glean from people in the know.
To those owners and builders of the V-Storm, I have nothing but admiration and I look forward next year to seeing Phil’s new Turbo powered WR3 creation in the flesh.
nigel
Some observations about this thread and the direction of the post. I find it quite sad, though humorous at the same time, how threads and posts can be interpreted in different ways. Because of my job I tend to look at these aspects of forums with interest, which is in Psychiatry / Psychology.
Everyone looks at the world through their own Lens, Filters and Powerbases, some examples here are Sonic’s choice of kitcar, and his need to have facts, figures and statistics to form a perspective on the best car here.
Jason comes from a powerbase of expertise in a couple of areas, Scoobies and some commercial interests in a couple of kit cars. In terms of Lens and filters Jason is also clearly passionate about his business and subject.
I’m sure you can see where this is going, when the two meet, there is going to be a debate, healthy we hope.
To ensure a healthy debate There are some helpful “ground rules” to this including
Ensuring you read, digest and understand the others viewpoint
Seek clarity where there is ambiguity, don’t jump to conclusions.
Do not personalise it
Stick to facts
Maintain an enquiring stance, don’t advocate or rant.
Know when to draw a line and walk away.
Take the whole thread into consideration not single posts in isolation.
To note, in relation to the last point, Jason did refer to building a V-Storm earlier in the thread
It is interesting that the thread topic was about opinions and views; indeed in this case it is exactly this that’s caused a conflict. So if you are posting a topic which invites individuals views and opinions then it’s important to stick to the ground rules.
I’m aware of the need to wrap this up so one last point, like any forms of communication electronic communication can be interpreted in many ways, this needs to be born out when compiling posts, indeed from an NLP perspective,
“The meaning of the communication is the response that you get” This is applicable to all posts here and every where else on the world wide web.
To get this thread back on track and thinking about “walking away from the table”
Simon is a man of integrity, he doesn’t knock others products nor does he attack criticise others for their views or opinions; he lets his car do the talking. For that alone this thread should focus on the topic in hand
Knowing Simon, he would gladly offer you, Sonic, a test drive at a convenient opportunity, indeed once mine is built I’ll gladly stick an inane smile on your face if our paths cross at a show next year.
One last thought from my unbiased honest opinion
, you can hone a finely tuned machine but you can’t polish a turd
Everyone looks at the world through their own Lens, Filters and Powerbases, some examples here are Sonic’s choice of kitcar, and his need to have facts, figures and statistics to form a perspective on the best car here.
Jason comes from a powerbase of expertise in a couple of areas, Scoobies and some commercial interests in a couple of kit cars. In terms of Lens and filters Jason is also clearly passionate about his business and subject.
I’m sure you can see where this is going, when the two meet, there is going to be a debate, healthy we hope.
To ensure a healthy debate There are some helpful “ground rules” to this including
Ensuring you read, digest and understand the others viewpoint
Seek clarity where there is ambiguity, don’t jump to conclusions.
Do not personalise it
Stick to facts
Maintain an enquiring stance, don’t advocate or rant.
Know when to draw a line and walk away.
Take the whole thread into consideration not single posts in isolation.
To note, in relation to the last point, Jason did refer to building a V-Storm earlier in the thread
It is interesting that the thread topic was about opinions and views; indeed in this case it is exactly this that’s caused a conflict. So if you are posting a topic which invites individuals views and opinions then it’s important to stick to the ground rules.
I’m aware of the need to wrap this up so one last point, like any forms of communication electronic communication can be interpreted in many ways, this needs to be born out when compiling posts, indeed from an NLP perspective,
“The meaning of the communication is the response that you get” This is applicable to all posts here and every where else on the world wide web.
To get this thread back on track and thinking about “walking away from the table”
Simon is a man of integrity, he doesn’t knock others products nor does he attack criticise others for their views or opinions; he lets his car do the talking. For that alone this thread should focus on the topic in hand
Knowing Simon, he would gladly offer you, Sonic, a test drive at a convenient opportunity, indeed once mine is built I’ll gladly stick an inane smile on your face if our paths cross at a show next year.
One last thought from my unbiased honest opinion
, you can hone a finely tuned machine but you can’t polish a turdThank you for your input ‘B33FY’ and for offering guidelines on how to hold a healthy debate.
Would you like to enlighten everyone, what is in your view ‘the topic in hand’ of this thread so that the conversation may continue constructively, and please don’t spoil the thread with childish anecdotes, even if it was meant to be little tongue in cheek as I’d hate any V-Storm enthusiasts to take offence.
nigel
Would you like to enlighten everyone, what is in your view ‘the topic in hand’ of this thread so that the conversation may continue constructively, and please don’t spoil the thread with childish anecdotes, even if it was meant to be little tongue in cheek as I’d hate any V-Storm enthusiasts to take offence.
nigel
Hi, Just thought I'd make an attempt to clear up the question over the differing reviews of the V-Storm. For info I was the main designer on the project, though we had specific expertise from elsewhere in the area of suspension design.
The car driven in all of the reviews mentioned is the prototype/development car, which has now been running for the best part of a year and undergoing continuous development. Each drive was conducted at a different stage of the development process - the nature of being a small kit car company is that it is difficult to turn away opportunities for publicity, particularly beyond the usual sphere of the kit car publications. Both the VBH review in the Times and the TrackDriver magazine represented an opportunity to reach a broader audience and so I can understand Simon Dickens decision to make use of those opportunities, even it was felt that the car wasn't yet in its definitive specification.
The CKC review being the most recent has the car closest to the "production" specification. It is also worth mentioning that the car has has a highly adjustable suspension set up in terms of geometry and spring/damper rates. Specifically I am aware though that the suspension set up was less than optimised for both the VBH and TrackDriver reviews, ride height in particular being too high. Since then as has already been mentioned Black Art Design have had some input on the set up, this has yielded results already on the prototype vehicle as the CKC review demonstrates and there is a revised rocker design coming for the production kits. Additionally for the production vehicles, a new rear upright has been designed which will improve pushrod geometry and simplify set up changes.
On the other points mentioned on driving position and gearshift position; the prototype car has a non-adjustabe seat position (though it can be bolted in a variety of positions), the production cars have seat runners based on feedback from the first vehicle (the pedal box is also adjustable as a nut and bolt job too) - incidentally I designed the cabin packaging around three people my size at 6'4" as there are many kit cars that I just don't fit in! So finding a suitable driving position should be more straight forward in future. The gearshift position is more awkward as it will be difficult to make the position lower without making the action too stiff if the dash mount position is retained. However there is also bracket provision for a floor mounted change should any specific customers prefer that option over the dash mount position.
Hopefully this goes some way to explaining the differing reviews of the car over the last few months, but also the comment has already been made regarding the subjectivity of driving impressions and preferences. The best bet will be to try the car for yourself and make your own judgement.
Simon Keys
The car driven in all of the reviews mentioned is the prototype/development car, which has now been running for the best part of a year and undergoing continuous development. Each drive was conducted at a different stage of the development process - the nature of being a small kit car company is that it is difficult to turn away opportunities for publicity, particularly beyond the usual sphere of the kit car publications. Both the VBH review in the Times and the TrackDriver magazine represented an opportunity to reach a broader audience and so I can understand Simon Dickens decision to make use of those opportunities, even it was felt that the car wasn't yet in its definitive specification.
The CKC review being the most recent has the car closest to the "production" specification. It is also worth mentioning that the car has has a highly adjustable suspension set up in terms of geometry and spring/damper rates. Specifically I am aware though that the suspension set up was less than optimised for both the VBH and TrackDriver reviews, ride height in particular being too high. Since then as has already been mentioned Black Art Design have had some input on the set up, this has yielded results already on the prototype vehicle as the CKC review demonstrates and there is a revised rocker design coming for the production kits. Additionally for the production vehicles, a new rear upright has been designed which will improve pushrod geometry and simplify set up changes.
On the other points mentioned on driving position and gearshift position; the prototype car has a non-adjustabe seat position (though it can be bolted in a variety of positions), the production cars have seat runners based on feedback from the first vehicle (the pedal box is also adjustable as a nut and bolt job too) - incidentally I designed the cabin packaging around three people my size at 6'4" as there are many kit cars that I just don't fit in! So finding a suitable driving position should be more straight forward in future. The gearshift position is more awkward as it will be difficult to make the position lower without making the action too stiff if the dash mount position is retained. However there is also bracket provision for a floor mounted change should any specific customers prefer that option over the dash mount position.
Hopefully this goes some way to explaining the differing reviews of the car over the last few months, but also the comment has already been made regarding the subjectivity of driving impressions and preferences. The best bet will be to try the car for yourself and make your own judgement.
Simon Keys
Hello Simon, I was intent to leave this thread to die out, as it’s intent seamed to have gotten a little misinterpreted and run off course. However I am grateful for your input to this thread, and fully understand and appreciate the need for a small kit car manufacturer to develop his product continuously, while in full view of the both customers and competition, even if on occasion it can lead to a little market confusion.
You elude to the fact that there have been some substantial changes that have taken place between the two reviews, and it is those changes that intrigue me most, as you were the main designer on the project I wonder if you could share the following information with me, roll centre heights, roll axis position, amount of camber, caster now and before Black Art Design where involved.
I’d also appreciate it if you could shed any light on the cars weight distribution and comparison of the weights of the WR3 and the V-twin Aprilia bike engine’d version as its difficult to find anything published.
Looking forward to next year and getting a possible test drive, as I'll need to find a new project to play with soon.
nigel
You elude to the fact that there have been some substantial changes that have taken place between the two reviews, and it is those changes that intrigue me most, as you were the main designer on the project I wonder if you could share the following information with me, roll centre heights, roll axis position, amount of camber, caster now and before Black Art Design where involved.
I’d also appreciate it if you could shed any light on the cars weight distribution and comparison of the weights of the WR3 and the V-twin Aprilia bike engine’d version as its difficult to find anything published.
Looking forward to next year and getting a possible test drive, as I'll need to find a new project to play with soon.
nigel
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