Future kit car design in a commercial context?
Discussion
Every time the subject of kit car design comes up, it stimulates lively discussion. I’d like to start another such thread, but restrict it, as far as possible, which isn’t very far I know, to commercial reality.
By which I mean that it would be great if we could consider not ideals, or potential one-offs, but what a kit car manufacturer might possibly actually achieve, and be able to sell examples of, at a reasonable profit.
The first restriction is a practical one, and that is, size. A great many kits are built, and afterwards kept, in single garages attached to houses. This would tend to go against kits based on Le Mans Prototypes etc. The other size related restriction is cost- the bigger the car, the more steel and GRP will be required, and that means greater cost (especially the GRP).
The second restriction has already been alluded to, commercial viability. Sales will be needed, so the kit has to offer good value. Ideally there should be one or more unique selling points, though looking at what’s about, these would seem to be optional
. Most kit car manufacturers are really quite small businesses, so the amount of time and money they can spend developing a new kit is limited too, so good ideas are needed rather than long development periods.
That’s probably enough to be going on with. I should say what lines I would be thinking along (and already am) and that is that 7s are hugely popular (in kit car terms) for good reason. Garage space is one of them, especially at the sides of the car, plus the desire of many purchasers to belong to a well established group. So having considered a great many different types of car, if I was developing a kit I would need to come up with something pretty magic if I was to choose not to do a 7. And I haven’t come up with something magic yet, but perhaps somebody here has, or will?
By which I mean that it would be great if we could consider not ideals, or potential one-offs, but what a kit car manufacturer might possibly actually achieve, and be able to sell examples of, at a reasonable profit.
The first restriction is a practical one, and that is, size. A great many kits are built, and afterwards kept, in single garages attached to houses. This would tend to go against kits based on Le Mans Prototypes etc. The other size related restriction is cost- the bigger the car, the more steel and GRP will be required, and that means greater cost (especially the GRP).
The second restriction has already been alluded to, commercial viability. Sales will be needed, so the kit has to offer good value. Ideally there should be one or more unique selling points, though looking at what’s about, these would seem to be optional
. Most kit car manufacturers are really quite small businesses, so the amount of time and money they can spend developing a new kit is limited too, so good ideas are needed rather than long development periods.That’s probably enough to be going on with. I should say what lines I would be thinking along (and already am) and that is that 7s are hugely popular (in kit car terms) for good reason. Garage space is one of them, especially at the sides of the car, plus the desire of many purchasers to belong to a well established group. So having considered a great many different types of car, if I was developing a kit I would need to come up with something pretty magic if I was to choose not to do a 7. And I haven’t come up with something magic yet, but perhaps somebody here has, or will?
Road legal or track?
Some along the lines of a Tiger Era for less?
Small, not much in the way of bodywork. Ok, so it is a track car but if you could knock them out for less than the £17,000 that Tiger do might be onto something.
I think they are lovely cars, similar to Jim clarks old lotus, would love to own one but £17,000 is a bit steep i think. Seeing as in essence there is less to it in terms of things like lights, wipers etc needed to become road legal.
Just a thought.
Some along the lines of a Tiger Era for less?
Small, not much in the way of bodywork. Ok, so it is a track car but if you could knock them out for less than the £17,000 that Tiger do might be onto something.
I think they are lovely cars, similar to Jim clarks old lotus, would love to own one but £17,000 is a bit steep i think. Seeing as in essence there is less to it in terms of things like lights, wipers etc needed to become road legal.
Just a thought.
Interesting that the first reply throws up a single seater. On Locostbuilders everyone sems to rave about the single seater which Haynes are supposed to be producing a "build it from scratch" book for which looks generally similar to the ERA.
Personally I've never understood the attraction of a single seater, unless a whole bunch of you are going to buy/build one & go out together like the bikers do - otherwise you become a billy no-mates as you're always on your own!
I don't know how many Roadrunner Sprints have been sold, but the manufacturer has now chosen to produce yet another 7 clone which must tell you something!
I think the whole coupe/hardtop market is undermined by cheap Loti, MX5's & MR2's
Personally not a big fan of exoskeletal, & for me it would have to be mid engined & NOT look like a 7, which doesn't leave much!
Sounds a bit like a Riot/Mojo with different bodywork - Oh! that's been done already, sorry if this doesn't help much & all IMHO of course
Incidentally I think something along the lines of the mid 60's F1 cars could easily be produced as a kitcar to be built for under £10k - you can build a Furore for that & there is a LOT more bodywork & it's much bigger - also wheels/tyres etc would be much cheaper for your Jim Clark stylee car
Personally I've never understood the attraction of a single seater, unless a whole bunch of you are going to buy/build one & go out together like the bikers do - otherwise you become a billy no-mates as you're always on your own!
I don't know how many Roadrunner Sprints have been sold, but the manufacturer has now chosen to produce yet another 7 clone which must tell you something!
I think the whole coupe/hardtop market is undermined by cheap Loti, MX5's & MR2's
Personally not a big fan of exoskeletal, & for me it would have to be mid engined & NOT look like a 7, which doesn't leave much!
Sounds a bit like a Riot/Mojo with different bodywork - Oh! that's been done already, sorry if this doesn't help much & all IMHO of course
Incidentally I think something along the lines of the mid 60's F1 cars could easily be produced as a kitcar to be built for under £10k - you can build a Furore for that & there is a LOT more bodywork & it's much bigger - also wheels/tyres etc would be much cheaper for your Jim Clark stylee car
Edited by Russ Bost on Saturday 18th December 14:00
I'm inclined to agree with Russ, in respect of single seaters. There's not being able to have a passenger, of course, plus the luggage carrying capacity is somewhat limited, which means overnight visits to kit car shows, for instance, are made more difficult. Great for track days (I assume anyway) but does seem a bit out of context if everyone else is in 2 seaters and production cars. I have a feeling that some track day organisers don't even allow them?
I think a single seater would make a good addition to a product range for an established manufacturer, but I wouldn't fancy one as a single product line, personally.
I think a single seater would make a good addition to a product range for an established manufacturer, but I wouldn't fancy one as a single product line, personally.
thescamper said:
Wish you still buy the Brooke as a kit, I have always thought it a sweet looking car.
I agree it's nice looking, but would it be commercially viable as a kit? I suppose that would depend on what it would cost to produce against how many it would sell at a profitable price. I can't quite see it myself, I think maybe the market for suc ha car might be too limited, though I expect it ticks over as a turnkey carRuss Bost said:
Personally I've never understood the attraction of a single seater, unless a whole bunch of you are going to buy/build one & go out together like the bikers do - otherwise you become a billy no-mates as you're always on your own!
Single seaters crop up with surprising regularity on people's wish lists, but they're pretty much an untried market.I'm (very, very slowly) designing one for myself, but that's more to do with trying to minimise weight than anything else and I have absolutely no intention of marketing it.
Common sense suggests that you're right, and that the lack of a passenger seat would be a limitation to the available market.
But then again... if I'm realistic, I can literally count on my fingers the number of times I've had a passenger in one of my 'Seven' type cars in the last ten years. My male friends all have their own cars, and if they're sufficient petrolheads to want to go out on a drive with me, they'll want to be behind the wheel themselves. Ditto track days: when I've shared with a mate, we've taken it in turns behind the wheel, rather than passengering. If I want to let them experience the car. I tend to make sure they're insured, then give them the keys and tell them to get on with it... there is just no way I'd want to be in the passenger seat; I'm of far too nervous a disposition.
Girlfriends tend to go out once, for novelty value, then realise that they (the cars) are scary, uncomfortable and wreck their (the girls) hair.
Let's be honest, kit cars are essentially selfish 'boys toys', and if you want the ultimate driving tool, it would have to be a single seater...
...maybe it will take someone with a decent product and marketing strategy testing the market to find out? If you'd told me pre-Atom that exoskeleton cars with no weather protection at all and the aerodynamics of a climbing frame would make a significant impact on the specialist car market, I'd have laughed at you!
Actually, some of the girls have been pretty scary too, come to think of it, but you only find that out later.
singlecoil said:
I agree it's nice looking, but would it be commercially viable as a kit?
That's a 'how long is a piece of string' question, though, isn't it?How many would you expect to produce, would they be sole business (I know that the wouldn't for you, but I'm assuming many people wanting to run a kit car company would want to build cars and nothing else), and how much money would you hope to make from it?
Of the UK companies I can think of who are genuinely producing enough turnover to make it an attractive living (to me... you might have different aspirations in terms of income), you would seem to have a choice of Sevens, replicas, or a multi-product range. GTM was a nice little business, but whether you could recreate similar success in the face of the 8K second-hand Elise market is questionable?
One thing I have learned from years hanging round the kit car industry: it's at least as much about your business plan and marketing strategy as it is about your product. As I've said previously on another thread, I've seen too many good cars wither because they were built by car enthusiasts, not businessmen, and too many well marketed sheds sell in big numbers because they were well promoted to think otherwise.
Sam_68 said:
....the kit car industry: it's at least as much about your business plan and marketing strategy as it is about your product. As I've said previously on another thread, I've seen too many good cars wither because they were built by car enthusiasts, not businessmen, and too many well marketed sheds sell in big numbers because they were well promoted to think otherwise.
As a bit of an 'expert' on the GTM marque (1980-2003) I think it was the very fact that the duo that were so successful were a businessman and an engineer as far as the business was concerned. Plus they were willing to work very hard to make it a success.Sam_68 said:
singlecoil said:
I agree it's nice looking, but would it be commercially viable as a kit?
That's a 'how long is a piece of string' question, though, isn't it?I must admit I was also hoping for designs of future cars (even if they are old fashioned
) to be discussed, rather than designs that are already with is and have been shown not to pass the test. Festive Ferg said:
As a bit of an 'expert' on the GTM marque (1980-2003) I think it was the very fact that the duo that were so successful were a businessman and an engineer as far as the business was concerned. Plus they were willing to work very hard to make it a success.
They were exceptional... plus being enthusiasts and a lovely pair of fellas to boot.And of course they had quite a good product to kick-start the business with, anyway. They started up with a mildly re-engineered version of the original GTM, which gave them the opportunity to get things up and running before embarking on the development of the Rossa, taking on the Midas, and then developing the Libra as the business grew?
The other option, perhaps, is to choose the Jeremy Philips/Lee Noble route and rely not so much on the revenue from actually building and selling individual cars, but from repeatedly establishing a design to the point where sales peak and it starts to look nicely viable, then offload the project at a nice, fat profit to somebody with stars in their eyes before the market for the model begins to saturate.
That's probably a little cynical of me, I suppose, because both have sold projects off that continued to be a great success (Noble with the Ultima and Sylva with the Fury and Striker).
It's a good point actually, Sam_68, the design is probably secondary to the personalities behind it. I certainly believe that the marketing strategy and determination (or lack of it) can terminate a good business. Wouldn't that have been the case with Robin Hood??? A business built up almost inspite of the design????
singlecoil said:
Indeed, but it's at the absolute centre of the thread topic...
Would you (or anyone else, indeed) be willing to suggest what total turnover, profit margin and/or number of cars per year you would consider to be a 'viable' business, in that case?I am absolutely no businessman (which is why I'm now back to being a wage slave after several years working for myself: I had neither the drive nor the love of filling in tax returns that are essential requirements), but I'll start the ball rolling by suggesting a minimum 25% profit margin after overheads and enough turnover to give a £60K salary would be the minimum for comfort, so for a one-man-band you're talking a quarter of a million annual turnover?
Assume £10K per car sold in revenue (and the design would have to be such that that £10K covered the costs of materials and overheads, leaving you with £2.5K profit), and you'd have to come up with something good enough to consistently sell at least 25 kits per year - 2 per month.
In the current market, and knowing the number of perfectly good cars whose production failed to reach double digits, that's a tough call.
Who was it who said that the best way to make a small fortune building sports cars was to start with a big one?
singlecoil said:
I must admit I was also hoping for designs of future cars (even if they are old fashioned ) to be discussed, rather than designs that are already with is and have been shown not to pass the test.
Then you're asking an even taller order? As mentioned above, quite a number of successful kit car manufacturers had someone else's design to build their business on. Most of the others either build replicas or take a long time to establish their reputations and success.... or fail at an early stage.) to be discussed, rather than designs that are already with is and have been shown not to pass the test. Edited by Sam_68 on Saturday 18th December 16:39
I think it would be hard to start with a clean sheet and develop a product like this that would slot into the market and sell in volume.
From a business perspective prospective sales to recoupe the upfront costs would make it very difficult, cant see a bank funding a project like that, what would be needed is someone making huge profit elsewhere and needed some tax right off, as a backer.
The other thing to consider is the target market which can only be declining, the Elises, Boxsters, S2000 and MR2 Roadster all have a negative effect on the kit car resale market and despite people on heres opinions on those cars, enquires from newbies on stands at kit car shows I found are mostly from people who enjoy driving something like that, serial car builders only make up a small amount of the enquiries but ironically are the most likely to buy, but the resale value to build cost still effects them.
One other thing is the skills of the potential car builder, at shows I was surprised by the number of people asking about fully built costs. This is because more people I felt had the will but not the skill, even rolling chassis & part builds would not entice them. Things like wiring and the IVA seemed to concern them the most, how to attract new customers to the Kit Car industry is the question that will lead to the best commercial design for a new car, you need to work from the potential customer base back, I dont think the current car builder/customer base is big enough to support an innovative new design aimed to be sold in volume.
Do we think individuals with car building skills is on the increase in the UK?
Manufacturing makes now makes up less 10% of the Uks output.
From a business perspective prospective sales to recoupe the upfront costs would make it very difficult, cant see a bank funding a project like that, what would be needed is someone making huge profit elsewhere and needed some tax right off, as a backer.
The other thing to consider is the target market which can only be declining, the Elises, Boxsters, S2000 and MR2 Roadster all have a negative effect on the kit car resale market and despite people on heres opinions on those cars, enquires from newbies on stands at kit car shows I found are mostly from people who enjoy driving something like that, serial car builders only make up a small amount of the enquiries but ironically are the most likely to buy, but the resale value to build cost still effects them.
One other thing is the skills of the potential car builder, at shows I was surprised by the number of people asking about fully built costs. This is because more people I felt had the will but not the skill, even rolling chassis & part builds would not entice them. Things like wiring and the IVA seemed to concern them the most, how to attract new customers to the Kit Car industry is the question that will lead to the best commercial design for a new car, you need to work from the potential customer base back, I dont think the current car builder/customer base is big enough to support an innovative new design aimed to be sold in volume.
Do we think individuals with car building skills is on the increase in the UK?
Manufacturing makes now makes up less 10% of the Uks output.
singlecoil said:
The other size related restriction is cost- the bigger the car, the more steel and GRP will be required, and that means greater cost (especially the GRP).
Almost irrelevant to the overall cost of a project though.As production volumes increase this becomes less and less relevant. It always amazes me how many people think that mass produced big cars cost more because the engines are more complex or because the trim covers a bigger area or is in leather. Do they realise how insignificant these costs actually are?
More relevant to small scale manufacture but, seriously, I doubt it makes much difference.
singlecoil said:
The second restriction has already been alluded to, commercial viability. Sales will be needed, so the kit has to offer good value. Ideally there should be one or more unique selling points, though looking at what’s about, these would seem to be optional. Most kit car manufacturers are really quite small businesses, so the amount of time and money they can spend developing a new kit is limited too, so good ideas are needed rather than long development periods.
Offer good value compared to what? In what way?. Most kit car manufacturers are really quite small businesses, so the amount of time and money they can spend developing a new kit is limited too, so good ideas are needed rather than long development periods.Performance per pound? Individuality? Styling? A niche product?
I would seriously consider not even trying regarding value for money but pushing the line of individuality, fun, a hobby and back to basics sportscar appeal instead.
For what it's worth; commercial viability (from a design point of view):
- Consider simplifying features such as not having doors. Just look at the 595 Barchetta or the Byers CR90, neither of which have doors. A highly simplified design is probably the only way to compete on cost, simply by making the result so cheap that it almost has to be worth it.
- Use a widely available donor drivetrain. Fiesta, Focus, BMW 3 Series, LS1.
- Consider a two plus two, not everyone can justify a two seater. The TVR Cerbera and Lotus Elan plus two were both made in a kit car way so it can be done. Yes, I know one of them is still with us as a Spyder, that's not the point, other marques should consider the layout.
- Styling. What the hell is wrong with some designers?
cymtriks said:
- Consider simplifying features such as not having doors. Just look at the 595 Barchetta or the Byers CR90, neither of which have doors. A highly simplified design is probably the only way to compete on cost, simply by making the result so cheap that it almost has to be worth it.
A doorless (and preferably windscreenless) 2+2 would be quite a strange animal?
I'm not sure that 2+2's make particularly good sense for the kit car market, anyway... if you have a young family (which is what they're most useful for), the chances are you won't have the time or money to be off in the garage building kit cars and these days your partner will probably be so precious about the little darlings that she wouldn't trust them to anything that lacked a 5-star NCAP rating and a full complement of air bags. If you don't have a young family, chances are you can live with a pure 2-seater, 'cos you'll either be young and single or middle aged and able to afford a sensible primary car.
I could be wrong, of course... the Quantum and Midas did reasonably well in their day, but both were complicated designs with doors.
cymtriks said:
*Styling. What the hell is wrong with some designers?
Lack of professional training? 
... as a random thought on a 'trendy' market that has yet to be exploited, how about a low drag EV/hybrid 'lifetime' car, to sell to ageing hippies and bunny-huggers?
Edited by Sam_68 on Saturday 18th December 18:18
very interesting.....
i think there is a gap at the top end of the kit car market, we have lots of copies ie the Cobras and Lolas, even the Ultima is a copy (sort of) of a 70's le man racer but there is nothing along the lines of the Noble M12, TVR's etc as they have both now unfortunately left us. The way supercar pricing is going ie Noble m600 at 200k there is a definately a gap for a 50-75k supercar? It would be very difficult for an established manufacturer to now produce a supercar for that kind of money but could the kit car industry produce something? I think so!!
i think there is a gap at the top end of the kit car market, we have lots of copies ie the Cobras and Lolas, even the Ultima is a copy (sort of) of a 70's le man racer but there is nothing along the lines of the Noble M12, TVR's etc as they have both now unfortunately left us. The way supercar pricing is going ie Noble m600 at 200k there is a definately a gap for a 50-75k supercar? It would be very difficult for an established manufacturer to now produce a supercar for that kind of money but could the kit car industry produce something? I think so!!
What figures would I consider economically feasible?
Well, supposing I was to be the manufacturer, then I would be looking ot be in a situation where making the kit concerned would see me making the same amount of money on an hourly basis as I do know. At the moment I charge a mere £20 an hour. Yes, I know it is ridiculously cheap, but my costs are low and my needs are simple, plus of course £20 an hour doesn’t sound anything like cheap to a customer with an inexpensive kit car that needs a 100 hours or so of work.
Were I to come up with a design, let’s suppose it was something simple like a 7 designed to use MX5 components. Nothing very innovative there, but it’s a start. I would need to provide suspension components, the chassis, and the bodywork. The price I could sell these for would be set by the market, and isn’t high. If sales were good then I could contract out the actual manufacture, or part of it, and concentrate on being the ‘customer interface’. I would expect the main source of income to be full or part builds, though, rather than kit sales. The main reason being that if I was assembling the same car over and over again I would get much faster at it, could quote a fixed price, and ought easily be able to exceed the £20 an hour that I make at the moment. Thing is to get things moving, then grow it from there.
So in fact although I would hope and expect some profit from kit sales, it would be the building work where I would see the most scope, and it’s why every manufacturer AFAIK offers a build service. There are other advantages to having one’s own make. If times are quiet, as they are now, I could make some stock, something that I can’t do working on customer cars.
Does it seem as if I started this thread to get ideas for my own business? Well, that would be great if anything came up that I haven’t already thought of, but I am still interested to get other people’s opinions about this stuff, and I would like to see kit car design move forward even if I wasn’t involved.
To pick up on Cymtrik’s point, GRP is expensive and it isn’t going to get any cheaper. A full GRP body such as a cobra is going to use a LOT more of it than a 7, especially if the 7 uses a fair bit of aluminium sheet. Yes, it will most certainly have an effect on the price, at the lower end of the market anyway. And the value comment, just needs to give the customer a good deal in comparison with other similar products.
Well, supposing I was to be the manufacturer, then I would be looking ot be in a situation where making the kit concerned would see me making the same amount of money on an hourly basis as I do know. At the moment I charge a mere £20 an hour. Yes, I know it is ridiculously cheap, but my costs are low and my needs are simple, plus of course £20 an hour doesn’t sound anything like cheap to a customer with an inexpensive kit car that needs a 100 hours or so of work.
Were I to come up with a design, let’s suppose it was something simple like a 7 designed to use MX5 components. Nothing very innovative there, but it’s a start. I would need to provide suspension components, the chassis, and the bodywork. The price I could sell these for would be set by the market, and isn’t high. If sales were good then I could contract out the actual manufacture, or part of it, and concentrate on being the ‘customer interface’. I would expect the main source of income to be full or part builds, though, rather than kit sales. The main reason being that if I was assembling the same car over and over again I would get much faster at it, could quote a fixed price, and ought easily be able to exceed the £20 an hour that I make at the moment. Thing is to get things moving, then grow it from there.
So in fact although I would hope and expect some profit from kit sales, it would be the building work where I would see the most scope, and it’s why every manufacturer AFAIK offers a build service. There are other advantages to having one’s own make. If times are quiet, as they are now, I could make some stock, something that I can’t do working on customer cars.
Does it seem as if I started this thread to get ideas for my own business? Well, that would be great if anything came up that I haven’t already thought of, but I am still interested to get other people’s opinions about this stuff, and I would like to see kit car design move forward even if I wasn’t involved.
To pick up on Cymtrik’s point, GRP is expensive and it isn’t going to get any cheaper. A full GRP body such as a cobra is going to use a LOT more of it than a 7, especially if the 7 uses a fair bit of aluminium sheet. Yes, it will most certainly have an effect on the price, at the lower end of the market anyway. And the value comment, just needs to give the customer a good deal in comparison with other similar products.
jas xjr said:
Would a kit that used all the major components from a Porsche boxster be viable?
Or a Honda s2000.
A kit that made it an easy build and not having to source many parts
Of those two the Porsche would probably be the easier, as I understand the Honda engine is quite tall and difficult to package. Most modern engines are distinctly bigger than those of years gone by.Or a Honda s2000.
A kit that made it an easy build and not having to source many parts
A problem with the Porsche is that it, like nearly all modern cars, uses struts in the suspension, and most wishbones are prefered for cars that use spaceframe chassis, as do most kit car.
I believe you are right to take the donor car as the starting point and go from there. Building a car based on bespoke components is expensive.
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