Pop up headlight mechanisms
Discussion
I'm trying to draw up a car at the moment, 2 seater mid engined sort of LMP inspired car, and one particular problem area is the required headlight height, which, to pass IVA, means that the bottom of the headlight needs to be 500mm from the ground. As I wish to incorporate the headlights into the front 'wings' and do not wish then to intrude into the airflow, this is causing a particular problem (as it does for many other designers of cars of this type.
Recessing the headlight means that the back of the light assembly is in danger of interfering with the front wheel unless the edge of the wing bulges forward to accomodate this, which detracts from the looks of the car.
Therefore I am considering the use of pop-up headlamps, and I am wondering if anybody here has suggestions as to the best type of mechanism and lift motor to use, I know many solutions have been tried over the years with varying degrees of success.
Recessing the headlight means that the back of the light assembly is in danger of interfering with the front wheel unless the edge of the wing bulges forward to accomodate this, which detracts from the looks of the car.
Therefore I am considering the use of pop-up headlamps, and I am wondering if anybody here has suggestions as to the best type of mechanism and lift motor to use, I know many solutions have been tried over the years with varying degrees of success.
TVR wedge and Triumph TR7(I think) use a mechanism you may well be able to pick up on ebay.
Having said that the drive is no more than a windscreen wiper motor...the type where a full 360 on the motor crank produces one sweep.
Ref the headlight height the 500mm is measured to the visible dip beam horizontal cut line as viewed on the lens. It is only measured to the bottom of the lens if the light does not have a horizontal beam cut (some American lights do not have it hense the wording to cover imports).
Steve
Having said that the drive is no more than a windscreen wiper motor...the type where a full 360 on the motor crank produces one sweep.
Ref the headlight height the 500mm is measured to the visible dip beam horizontal cut line as viewed on the lens. It is only measured to the bottom of the lens if the light does not have a horizontal beam cut (some American lights do not have it hense the wording to cover imports).
Steve
TVR Wedge and TR7, also Lotus Eclat/Elite Series2 used the same Motors.
not the best and reliable thing, the Lotus one does work better.
Lotus switched to Toyota Celica / Supra items later...bomb-prove....
some owners converted to fiat x1/9
ginetta used one wiper motor in the G4/S4 and the G27, where the end of stroke was limited by some microswitches, mounted on an external bracket.
not the best and reliable thing, the Lotus one does work better.
Lotus switched to Toyota Celica / Supra items later...bomb-prove....
some owners converted to fiat x1/9
ginetta used one wiper motor in the G4/S4 and the G27, where the end of stroke was limited by some microswitches, mounted on an external bracket.
tribbles said:
I had a feeling that pop-up lights were not allowed in SVA (yet alone IVA). But I could be wrong on that.
I had a look through what I assume is the relevant section of the manual, and they weren't mentioned either way, so I expect it's an interpretation issue. I don't know how the regulations are usually interpreted in this respect, as I'm not aware of any kits that use them at the moment.Would have thought MR2 units would be amongst the most readily available & cheap, I can usually lay may hands on a pair.
Re the regs, don't think there is any exclusion of pop up headlights provided they will remain consistantly in the same alignment each time they are raised., but if in doubt give the VOSA boys a ring, I find them very helpful & informative.
Re the regs, don't think there is any exclusion of pop up headlights provided they will remain consistantly in the same alignment each time they are raised., but if in doubt give the VOSA boys a ring, I find them very helpful & informative.
Singlecoil said:
I had a look through what I assume is the relevant section of the manual, and they weren't mentioned either way...
current IVA regs said:
All lamps and reflectors fitted to the vehicle must be fixed and not move by swivelling, deflecting or otherwise while the vehicle is in motion, except for... a headlamp which can be retracted or concealed
(2nd page in Section 20 in my copy)...so the Regs specifically state that pop-up headlamps can be used.
I'd have thought that the other prime candidate alongside the MR2 would be the Mk1. MX5, which has any number of specialist parts suppliers and breakers, due to it's popularity.
The lightest, cheapest and easiest alternative would be manual operation by a Bowden cable.
Personally, I'd be inclined to use a pair of temporary headlamps mounted on top of the wheelarches to get through IVA - you could maybe fit a ventilation louvres or ducts in their place post-IVA, to avoid having to make good the bodywork - but I suppose it depends how bothered you are about continued compliance with the letter of the regs.
Russ Bost said:
Would have thought MR2 units would be amongst the most readily available & cheap, I can usually lay may hands on a pair.
Re the regs, don't think there is any exclusion of pop up headlights provided they will remain consistantly in the same alignment each time they are raised., but if in doubt give the VOSA boys a ring, I find them very helpful & informative.
I've been looking at your projector headlights, might that be a way around the problem? I've been considering whether I can provide a vertical plinth for them, possibly recessed, to mount them in. How does one adjust the aim on them?Re the regs, don't think there is any exclusion of pop up headlights provided they will remain consistantly in the same alignment each time they are raised., but if in doubt give the VOSA boys a ring, I find them very helpful & informative.
"How does one adjust the aim on them?"
Depends exactly how you mount them (& also exactly which projectors you're referring to as I do several), usually people mount them up on a couple of sprung mounts so you can adjust like old minis used to, sometimes people mount close to an accurate setting & then just "tweak" the bracketry for final alignment.
Depends exactly how you mount them (& also exactly which projectors you're referring to as I do several), usually people mount them up on a couple of sprung mounts so you can adjust like old minis used to, sometimes people mount close to an accurate setting & then just "tweak" the bracketry for final alignment.
I must admit I loved my Celica and Corvettes with the pop-up headlights, but I disregarded the idea on my car due to the weight of the 2 systems. I seem to remember a pair of Toyota or Covette motors and the basic frames for the lights where about 5 kgs a side.... and for that added weight I can fit Power Brakes and Power Steering. But any ideas that make the System light wieght then it would make stiling the area forward of the wheels easyier...
hi. i fitted pop out lights on a couple of mirachs and sva definately did not like them, however they swing out sideways from the bonnet and it was the hole left behind when the lights were out, that was the problem and there is no way of closing that gap, (lack of room in there) so as i see it, as long as there are no "sharp" edges and no holes that any pedestrian could be fooled into putting his arm into as you drove past, they should be allowed. however different things seem to pass at different testing stations, do any mainstream manufacturers make a car with pop up lights anymore. on a final note. toyota mr2 motors
I think pop-up headlights almost guarantee a poor Euro NCAP score, so mainstream manufacturers avoid them now.
If you do want to put pop-ups on your kit, I would check the Exterior Projections section.
You could move the headlights inboard of the wheels (similar to Frogeye) - I guess you'd probably still want them to be pop-ups but it would give you a little more room for the mechanism.
If you do want to put pop-ups on your kit, I would check the Exterior Projections section.
You could move the headlights inboard of the wheels (similar to Frogeye) - I guess you'd probably still want them to be pop-ups but it would give you a little more room for the mechanism.
ChrisJ. said:
A few Stratos rep owners are looking at Mk1 MX5 headlamp lift motors. The Mazda units are a fraction of the weight of the X/19 motors, and more compact.
MX5 units would be ideal, assuming size wise, they also have a plastic trim that seals off the gaping hole. There are aftermarket kits available "sleepy eye" that make them open half way & low profile light units are used. Also available for Nissan 200SX S13 models & MR2
Thanks for all the info, chaps. I think I'm probably going to see if I can design a way around this problem, I reckon that adapting any of the existing solutions is probably going to be more difficult that coming up with something from scratch, or avoiding the problem altogether.
One of the problems is that I would need to set the unit into a steeper slope that any of the production versions I've seen. Then there's the shape of the bodywork, the part that forms the 'roof' of the pop-up unit to contend with.
One of the problems is that I would need to set the unit into a steeper slope that any of the production versions I've seen. Then there's the shape of the bodywork, the part that forms the 'roof' of the pop-up unit to contend with.
Having stripped quite a few MX5's for Exocet donors I ahve found the headlight motors do not sell on ebay. We easily sell all the un wanted parts, even silly little bits fetch money but I can only assume the motors in question are tough. If you would like a couple of motors to play with then let me know and I will send you a pair.
Would it be possible to use an LED as these require very little space now to provide a light beam up to and way beyond what a HID or Halogen buld is capable of. It would give you a lot of freedom WRT packaging.
A beam shot from a single new phased-lattice-array (phlatlight) LED and a throw rather than flood lens
A beam shot from a single new phased-lattice-array (phlatlight) LED and a throw rather than flood lens
Mk.I MX-5 units my first thought too, but I have to ask if you've thought this approach through fully?
Elsewhere, it's apparent - and you've even stated - that both development resources and and ease of build are factors in your consideration, so I don't see what advantage this has to offer over a more conventional solution.
Resolving the issues associated with modifying the donor mechanism to suit your application, plus the fit & finish associated with the covers is surely additional development effort over a fixed unit, and better spent elsewhere. OK, headlamp covers are a lot smaller than doors, and don't have the same sealing requirements, but they are in effect panels: I don't know whether you've determined what state of finish you plan to offer the body panels in, but either way it seems to be making hassle for yourself or the builder.
Elsewhere you've stated that ease of build is (quite rightly) a factor to consider - I don't see how mounting, aligning pop up units is easier than a fixed unit, and that's without considering fit and finish of the covers, which could be a right pain in the proverbial.
At the end of the day even if you do successfully overcome these issues, as the mainstream has left this technology behind, you're left with something that looks frankly a little old hat (though using projectors might mitigate this)
Others - such as Eclipse SM1 (a.k.a. LBird) have managed OK with fixed units. Was it Russ who has some 50mm Ø projectors that combined main & dipped beam? If aesthetics are the issue, is it not possible to have a larger set of secondary lights (side / indicator / driving) mounted below the 500mm for visual balance - they can even be part of the same unit / feature.
The Bristol 450 is an odd looking beast, but as far as the nose is concerned I've always thought the various elements of a good looking design were present, just not positioned and proportioned correctly, e.g. imagine the main light units shrunk down around projectors.
Elsewhere, it's apparent - and you've even stated - that both development resources and and ease of build are factors in your consideration, so I don't see what advantage this has to offer over a more conventional solution.
Resolving the issues associated with modifying the donor mechanism to suit your application, plus the fit & finish associated with the covers is surely additional development effort over a fixed unit, and better spent elsewhere. OK, headlamp covers are a lot smaller than doors, and don't have the same sealing requirements, but they are in effect panels: I don't know whether you've determined what state of finish you plan to offer the body panels in, but either way it seems to be making hassle for yourself or the builder.
Elsewhere you've stated that ease of build is (quite rightly) a factor to consider - I don't see how mounting, aligning pop up units is easier than a fixed unit, and that's without considering fit and finish of the covers, which could be a right pain in the proverbial.
At the end of the day even if you do successfully overcome these issues, as the mainstream has left this technology behind, you're left with something that looks frankly a little old hat (though using projectors might mitigate this)
Others - such as Eclipse SM1 (a.k.a. LBird) have managed OK with fixed units. Was it Russ who has some 50mm Ø projectors that combined main & dipped beam? If aesthetics are the issue, is it not possible to have a larger set of secondary lights (side / indicator / driving) mounted below the 500mm for visual balance - they can even be part of the same unit / feature.
The Bristol 450 is an odd looking beast, but as far as the nose is concerned I've always thought the various elements of a good looking design were present, just not positioned and proportioned correctly, e.g. imagine the main light units shrunk down around projectors.
ChrisJ. said:
A few Stratos rep owners are looking at Mk1 MX5 headlamp lift motors. The Mazda units are a fraction of the weight of the X/19 motors, and more compact.
I've recently replaced the X/19 motors on my Hawk with MX5 ones. Although it's early days, in my experience the Mazda units are more 'robust' in performance - the lights pop up speedily and with 'intent', IYSWIM?I found the X/19 units unreliable and they performed as if they were really struggling. They also used to 'blink' on occasion. They were a bit too flaky for me. Hence the swap.
I much prefer the Mazda units.
rhinochopig said:
Would it be possible to use an LED as these require very little space now to provide a light beam up to and way beyond what a HID or Halogen buld is capable of. It would give you a lot of freedom WRT packaging.
A beam shot from a single new phased-lattice-array (phlatlight) LED and a throw rather than flood lens
Any other info on these types of lights ?? would love to fit LED head lamps...A beam shot from a single new phased-lattice-array (phlatlight) LED and a throw rather than flood lens
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